"French Cavalry Horse Breeds" Topic

This may have been covered in previous threads, but I cannot find them. Can anyone tell me what the predominant breeds of horses were for 1812 French cavalry heavy regiments (cuirassiers, dragoons and carabiniers) and for light divisions such as hussars and chasseurs a cheval? If there are any source materials for this information that would be helpful too.

As an aside, do Napoleonic gamers really care about breeds when modelling their armies? Just curious. Thanks for your help.

As I recall they always tried to mount the carabiniers on black Normans. So I've modeled my two regiments on black horses. Some regiments like the Chasseurs a Cheval de la Garde Imperial had a squadron mounted on bays, another on roans, etc. Seems like one of the Garde lancer regiments had something special too. Sorry, too lazy to look it up at this (for me) late hour. I'm sure others can provide more info. For the second part, yes. If I can positively identify the goal, recognizing there are exceptions, I try to paint the norm rather than the exception.

Michael

I don't really get involved too deeply with regards to breeds when painting my Regiments, however, I do look at contemporary paintings and drawings of units to discover the colouring of the horses of each regiment as I paint them. I also look at details when written in the books as well for colouring.

I don't stick to a particular colour pattern, excepting greys for bugler, dark brown predominating, reasoning that once the conflict started, cavalry were mounted on whatever could be found and that mounts were always in short supply. But then I also field my battalions and regiments at historical rather than paper strengths too.

Can't remember where I copied this info from. Somewhere on the net several years ago FYI here is what I follow…

Napoleonic Cavalry Horses

Line Cavalry: Dragoons, Lancers, Chasseurs à Cheval, Hussars by company (Trumpeters on grays)
1st company on blacks,
2nd company on bays,
3rd company on chestnuts,
4th Squadron on grays and whites
5th company on browns and blacks
6th company on bays
7th company on chestnuts
8th company on grays and whites

Horse Carabiniers – Black horses. Later on blacks, browns and dark bays. Trumpeters on black?

Cuirassiers – Blacks, browns and dark bays. Trumpeters on grays.

Regiment of Horse Grenadiers of the Imperial Guard – blacks and a few browns. Trumpeters on black?

Regiment of Guard Dragoons – Chestnuts and some bays. Trumpeters on grays.

1st Regiment of Lighthorse-Lancers (Polish) of the Imperial Guard – 1st squadron on chestnuts 2nd Squadron on bays 3rd Squadron on blacks 4th Squadron on dark greys.

2nd Regiment of Lighthorse-Lancers (Dutch) of the Imperial Guard – Chestnuts and bays.

1st Regiment of Horse Chasseurs of the Imperial Guard – Bays (mostly dark bays). One squadron on chestnuts.

Squadron of Guard Mamelukes – Bays (mostly dark bays). Trumpeters on grays.

Russian Cavalry Horses – No uniformity except for the Imperial Guard.

Guard Cavalry Regiment – 1st squadron on bays, 2nd squadron on chestnuts, 3rd squadron on grays, 4th squadron on blacks.

Lifeguard Uhlan Regiment – 1st squadron on dark bays, 2nd squadron on light bays, 3rd squadron on chestnuts, 4th squadron on blacks.

Austrian Cavalry Horses – Dark bay, brown or black. Squadrons tried to limit colour variation.

Prussian Cavalry Horses – 8th Hussar regiment before 1807 chestnut horses. Trumpeters on white horses.

Prussian Guard cavalry – black horses

British Cavalry

Household cavalry on black horses
Scots Greys on grey horses
2nd Dragoon Guards (Queens Bays) on bay horses
Some RHA batteries have the same colour draft horses

Since I have a technique down cold for red-brown horses, that is what most of mine look like. I add some light browns for light cavalry, and greys for officers and buglers and sometimes a black (it is hard to make black horses look good without using oils, and I refuse to use oils). so bottom line, I don't care what they rode, I mount them on horses that I can paint.

As an aside, do Napoleonic gamers really care about breeds when modelling their armies? Just curious. Thanks for your help.

Good grief

Horse breeds????

No wonder people take the

On the contrary, its a very sensible question.
Quality of horses, both their breed and condition, could make a VERY big difference to the effectiveness of cavalry. Certainly up there with cuirasses, lances, carbines and all those other factors some rule writers obsess about.
The writings of the great cavalry officers devote a lot of attention to quality and breeding of mounts.

PS Redleg- although Russian regulations did not specify horse colours for line cavalry, it seems some colonels did try to buy uniform mounts. Capt Mercer saw a Russian Cuirassier regiment all mounted on 'isabelles' (an old fashioned term for a creamy light brown shade).

I agree that for a proper appreciation of the effectiveness of Napoleonic cavalry who wouldnt be interested in the key topic of horse flesh?
Re: 1812 French cavalry I wonder how many were still mounted on confiscated Austrian chargers? Ive read that after 1805 and again in 1809 many horses were acquired from them.

Redleg

Thanks for the great information. I do recall seeing a chart broken down by company for line cavalry. I am wondering if it was a Waterloo blog I saw recently.

I remeber that chart from the Dom Goh discussion forum.

A link to this thread was posted on a TMP poll with the implication this is a mindlessly pedantic topic discussed by the… you get the picture.
Im amazed someone could think this isnt a topic for legitamite discussion. Go to the WW2 boards and the most intricate threads on technical specifications of AFVs are being thrashed out for example. Yet horse breeds is seemingly too unimportant to mention?
I think like most of us I have a passion for Napoleonics even down to its minutae. I dont think its of world shattering importance of course but still interesting to read and write about.
If your not interested why would you bother to read and comment so adversely about it?

I would agree and submit that the study of the horses of the period is a neglected topic. One of the reasons is that the horse is no longer a primary mode of transportation and is used for sports and pleasure riding.

Unfortunately, many of the skills associated with horses is now only known in a much smaller community. Interestingly, the US Army, and undoubtedly the British Army has also along with the French Garde Republicaine, still has two farriers to take care of shoeing the horses assigned to Fort Myer, Virginia.

There is an excellent film, ca 1930, entitled 'Keep 'Em Rolling' about the US artillery horse Rodney. The movie was filmed at Fort Myer and the artillery units there, still horse drawn, were used in the movie. It shows quite well how horse teams were used with artillery, and although the pieces and limbers were modern as of ca 1920, it has matched horse teams and shows them moving at the gallop with actual weapons and equipment, not Hollywood mockups.

Sincerely,
Kevin

On this side of the pond we are, perhaps, luckier. Not only does the mounted Regiment of the Household Cavalry perform public duties, but we also have The King's Troop RHA, who still carry out public duties, including the firing of Royal Birthday Salutes in Hyde Park. It is one thing to see them trotting sedately from the barracks, but to see them gallop into action, "Halt! Action Front!" is really quite stirring. Although as Kevin has pointed out for the USA, their guns and equipment are definitely post-Napoleonic (13pdr QF circa 1914)
The Corps of Military Police used to (still?) have a mounted detachment. Some cavalry regiments still have Drum Horses, and most ex-mounted regiments maintain a small stable of horses for recreation. All of these units have farriers and shoeing smiths who are trained by the RAVC (Royal Army Veterinary Corps).

Colors aren't breeds; and vice versa.

Paints, Appaloosas and Palominos?
Is their some sort of overlap between colour and breeds?
Also I think that the term Black Horse referred to large, strong animals only.
Im on shaky ground here and I am happy to be corrected.

I always thought that the use of horses of the same colour for a squadron was to assist in rallying the squadrons and then the regiment. The same would apply to the elite company having distinguishing headgear such as the French dragoons in bearskin making it easier to fix the right of the line when reforming or after passing an obstacle.
Interesting then that these distinctions seem to have been discontinued (to which the imperial livery instead of trumpeters in jacket having the facing colours should be added). Perhaps some form of squadron guidon was found to be more effective in rallying in addition to difficulties in obtaining good mounts regardless of colour.

I visited a stud farm in Normandy some years ago where they had specimen Norman heavy horses. These are massive beasts when compared to some of the other breeds. I could image these in use for pulling guns and would make a difference between light and true heavy cavalry if these were the same ones preferred for cuirassiers.

Palomino is a color; Appaloosa is a breed. Paints (pintos) are usually mustangs (mongrels), but piebald and skewbald are colors that are sometimes called pintos or paints. Thoroughbred (race horse) is a breed; Quarter Horse is a breed (so-called be cause they're very fast up to a quarter of a mile); Percheron is a breed; Cydesdale is a breed; Shetland pony is a breed.

That's Clydesdale, not Cydesdale. Sorry.

There are some overlaps between breed and colour. Most Hanoveraners and Holsteiners (the heavy cavalry mount of choice in N Europe) in this period were black, or a very dark bay that would pass for black.
Raducci is right that the 'black horse' was a specific type (not quite as well defined as a modern breed) in the c17th and early c18th Europe. These were large and powerful but not very agile riding animals, with what today looks like a rather small head for the size of its body. Almost always, as the name suggests- black. They were bred out of existence during the later c18th with the addition of Eastern blood. The German name for these horses was 'Rappen', which continued in use after the type itself died out.

@ Seneffe Ive seen period prints of black horses then!
I just thought the small head was an artistic convention.
Your post is very informative:Thanx

Seneffe, Raducci and/or donlowry:

What "breed" of horse was most commonly used for artillery trains?

Sorry, I don't know.

As for whether I care about breeds, when it comes to my miniatures: no, tho I do like to see heavy cavalry on big horses and light cavalry on small ones. I do care about colors, and try to put regiments on the correct color of horses, if known, and put buglers/trumpeters on grays where appropriate. I also try (lately) to vary the shades of colors somewhat within a unit (not all bays are the same shade of brown, for instance).

Marbot, in his memoirs, tells us he once worked on a farm that bred horses.
The ones that were sold to the army as draught horses seem to have just been the large and strong animals of no specific breed that they raised on the farm.

donlowry

I agree with your position. I would like to "aim" for some accuracy, but I do not feel burdened with the notion of having to be precise. I would like to paint trumpeters on gray horses and vary the colors within a unit. The color is somewhat important to me if the historical basis for a distinction in a unit is accurate. I thought Redleg's post is a nice general summary and one which is of sufficient detail for my gaming point of view.

I was merely concerned with the degree of nitpickiness that Napoleonic gamers are rumored to have. And let me emphasize the word "rumored" as I have not yet participated in a real Napoleonic game. When trying to participate in a game, I would rather not have issues with the manner in which I painted my figures.

I guess if someone is going to tell me that the horse my figure is sitting on is to small to be accurate, well I have a few choices: (i) I can blame it appropriately on the miniature manufacturer; (ii) I can choose not to game against this particular opponent; or (iii) both (i) and (ii).

Anyhow, thank you for your thoughts.