"Why did EIR Centurions wear lorica hamata?" Topic

While painting a few Centurions, I noticed that they all either were equipped with lorica hamata (chain mail) or lorica squamata (scale mail). But it would seem to me that lorica segementata, as worn by the common legionaries, is actually much more effective armor, while still allowing for a full range of movement. So why would experienced and well-paid Centurions wear less effective armor?

This'll be good. I'll get the popcorn ready

Go light on the salt and no butter on mine please. I always like to get here early to get a good seat.

LLC aka Ron

I gues for the same reason some young ladies wear "tight fitting jeans" instead of "over alls".

It looks good?

Oops! Gotta go, the popcorn is ready.

- Greg

Centurions were there to command, not to be in the first rank of fighting unless absolutely necessary. I also think that chain mail and scale armor was more expensive and more durable in fighting. Otherwise Roman commanders would always wear segmentata, yet they depicted in muscled cuirasses, scale and mail for centurions.

a bit slow so far..more popcorn?

IGWARG1,
I think that Centurions "led from the front" more than you think (for example the disproportionately high casualty ration of Centurions at tough fights like Gergovia -to use a pre-EIR example). I would agree that chain mail would probably be more durable -or less maintenance intensive due to the absence of hinges and leather components.
But chain mail was the standard armor before segmentata, so there must have been a reason for the Romans to switch to segmentata, no?

Oh, hell. Why not jump in? My popcorn's still popping.

But it would seem to me that lorica segementata, as worn by the common legionaries, is actually much more effective armor,

OK. what's your evidence for "more effective"? It only comes to the waist.
The ONLY reason that the so-called "lorica segmentata" was introduced and became so widespread was that it was far cheaper to produce.
Think of the man-hours in hammering out sheet, versus drawing wire, froming it into rings, assembling the rings, welding or riveting the rings…
Just how thick is actual surviving "lorica segmentata" anyway? Hmmmm?

Ooooh! Popcorn's ready.

Oh, why am I so sure? Because the state spported military ALWAYS chooses the lowest bidder and cheapest stuff.

So why are legionaries associated with segmentata, and auxiliaries with the more expensive/effective mail…? (Oops! – opened another can of worms, should have stuck to popcorn…)

John,
Then why did the "state supported military" give the cheap amor to their citizen soldiers, but let their auxilaries wear expensive chainmail?

oops bilsonius beat me to it

Yeah, scale and ring mail simply looks more cool.

Also, remember that some of those old armor shirts had a history going back many owners. An officer wearing the hamata of a well-known legion hero had to feel pretty buffed up!

Because the auxiliaries were the ones that did the really important fighting.

Come on guys! We are talking about military procurement here! Since when did that ever make sense?

OK. How about this?
Since the contractors had to keep on producing armor, or else their contract ran out, they furnished as many Legions as possible.
Then, not wanting to let all that old armor go to waste, it was bought up by yet aother set of unscrupulous dealers, and given to the Auxilia!

Follow the money. It always explains a lot more than "effective".

Yep, perhaps Doug L is right. After all, if you are the Big Cheese, why would you want to look like segmt-wearing underlings? Certainly some modern reproduction scale mail, like on the cover of Daniel Peterson's book, looks quite spiffy.

(Would this be "follow the cool" rather than "follow the money?")

Okay I will chime in here with some fact checking. What sources do we have that say what about who had what in the way of ASrmour?

VR
James Mattes
Carmel corn on the way. It is a dish best served with agst.

and why did they wear red tunics when the men wore white, (nothung like stirring the possum)

And why the British accents?

'cos American ones suck.

Seriously tho….probably the main reason for the centurions wearing the mail was that it was easier to attach all those spiffy decorations (try saying "spiffy" in an american accent & you'll see…..) – much easier to tie the bits of leather & such they were mounted on to mail than LS.

Also it covers more of the body.

And Roman mail could be, IIRC, made of very small rings – down to 3mm are recorded – which would provide pretty good protection against most weapons those guys encountered.

Plus of course if it was harder to make then there is the "ponce" factor – the officers want to look better and different from the men thank you very much – in some other cultures the rulers did it by retaining chariots well past their use-by date, or marrying their sisters, and other silly things – the lesser officers had to make do with more practical measures like crested helments and wearing mail when all the rankers were being issued with LS.

Pish. Segmentata is a mere blip on the Roman Armour Timeline. If the history of ancient Rome was a single day, up to about Lunchtime they were wearing Mail. After, I suppose a heavy lunch of Olives, Spelt-bread, Bean Stew with herbs, drizzled with more olive oil, some nice hard boiled eggs, a few pints of wine, a nice honey cake and oh, go on then Optio, another few glassed of wine Lo! the Mail had shrunk and wouldn't fit.

So, in a hurry for the important 1pm meeting with his ex-wife's Lawyer you quickly dash out and buy some Segmentata. All that sweating and arguing, and a nice dump in a room full of other guys, and the Mail fits again. From 1.30 to Midnight when all the lights go out, it's back into Mail.

The Real Question is – 'why did the Centurions NOT wear Lorica segmentata? Were they on a diet? Early Spandex?

Pat

It's a bit like asking why WWI & WWII officers tended to get pistols rather than much more effective rifles (officially anyway). Status symbols.

So that command group figures would look more distinct from rank and file, mixed on the same movement stand.

Since we're going down the popcorn route – why would anyone on horseback wear lorica squamata – the fish-scale stuff. Surely you're going to get attacked from below by any infantryman on the battlefield, and they're all striking upwards between the scales…

The ones that point down deflect the sword cuts down.

I have seen scales pointing up, and always wondered why. See Byzantines, et al. Now I know why!

"Look centuron we have all this new armour, I know it's a bit of a pain but I think we would look a lot smarter if everyone wore the same!"
"F!@* off Sir!"
"Oh, there's no need to be like that Centurion."

Dont mess with your NCOs, you want them on your side in a fight!

A centurion wearing the alternative armor under discussion:

obeythekitten.com

They probably needed leaders that could be pointed out quickly in a fight so they were armored differently then everyone else.

Why? 'Cause it didn't make their ass look big like the segmentata did.

Cos Centurions in different armour looks cool, thats why they did it.