"Why D&D 4th Edition is going to rock for miniatures gaming" Topic

Generally speaking, TMPers have been pretty down on 4th edition D&D even from the initial rumours stage. I've been one of them. When I hear "D&D" I think about running Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy RPG, the Rules Cyclopedia or 1st Edition AD&D. I hate(d) 3rd edition (or 3.5 or whatever) and very much consider it "not-D&D". So I'm not coming from a D&D fandom perspective.

However, on pages 190-195 of the 4th Edition Dungeon Master's Guide are nuggets of pure gold as far as using 4th edition as the basis for miniature gaming goes. The section is titled "Random Dungeons" and ends with a paragraph titled "Playing Without a DM."

In this section there are rules for:
- Randomly generating a dungeon with d20 rolls for corridors, doors, chambers, etc.,.
- Building encounter templates to quickly bring in monsters
- Designing an "Encounter Deck" of cards with monsters, traps, etc.,.

D&D 4th edition already has a lot of stuff going for it as a miniature game. It pretty much assumes that all combat will be on a grid/battlemap using miniatures. Cut out the stuff between combats and make use of things like the random dungeon generator and DM-less play and one has an excellent starting point for fantasy skirmish gaming where your guys get stronger as you fight more.

4th edition also seems to have gotten rid of a lot of 3.5's bloat. Here's the entry for 3rd edition's Zombie:

HUMAN ZOMBIE
Human Commoner Zombie
Size/Type: Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 2d12+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares; can't run)
Armor Class: 11 (–1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2
Attack: Slam+2 melee (1d6+1) or club +2 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Slam+2 melee, (1d6+1) or club +2 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Single actions only, damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref –1, Will +3
Abilities: Str —, Dex —, Con —, Int —, Wis —, Cha —
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness
Environment: Any
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: —

And here's 4th edition's Zombie rotter

Zombie Rotter Level 3 Minion
Medium natural animate (undead) XP 38
Initiative –2 Senses Perception –1; darkvision
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 13; Fortitude 13, Refl ex 9, Will 10
Immune disease, poison
Speed 4
m Slam (standard; at-will)
+6 vs. AC; 5 damage.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Str 14 (+2) Dex 6 (–2) Wis 8 (–1)
Con 10 (+0) Int 1 (–5) Cha 3 (–4)

3rd edition had some potential for use for miniature gaming (D&D Miniature collectibles are based on 3rd edition) but 4th seems to finish the job. I'm looking forward to it for miniature gaming and miniature gaming/role playing hybrid play.

Yes, but does it have a streetwalker table?

Rich

Indeed – I will second Zagloba – where is the streetwalker table? Of course there is a rumor that there is a Walker Texas Ranger table – complete with Chuck Norris stat line for purposes of Epic campaigns.

So not only the WoW market, but the Descent market as well?

Yeah, WoW market, Descent market. It's even making a big splash among hard core "story gamers" who like all the new fangled hippy games like Dogs In the Vineyard, Sorcerer, etc., and the games found on Indie Press Revolution. People have already likened it to doing for RPGs what Settler's of Catan did for boardgames. I think Hasbro/WotC has a big commercial success ahead of them in the 4th ed product line.

That said, I'm still of the opinion that 3rd edition "ruined D&D" and that if I want to play D&D, I'll break out 1st Ed or Labyrinth Lord/BFRPG.

I am really jazzed about a linked dungeoncrawl campaign using miniatures, tiles, etc., with 4e rules. I'll be giving it a go this Saturday.

"…In this section there are rules for:
- Randomly generating a dungeon with d20 rolls for corridors, doors, chambers, etc.,.
- Building encounter templates to quickly bring in monsters
- Designing an "Encounter Deck" of cards with monsters, traps, etc.,…"

Random Dungeons were around in The Strategic Review Spring 1975 Vol.1, No. 1 – have a copy on my desk as referene as we speak. One typo in Table #1 but an eminently elegant "randon dungeon" (analog of course) creation tool.

Nice to return to what works.

Gracias,

Glenn

Can't say I'm thrilled about the stat block. If I want to play a stripped down game with minions, I'd rather play Savage Worlds. If I'm going to play D&D, I want the complexity.

Damon.

I remember when playing AD&D we always wanted more when it came to monster stats so I like the stat bload after all it is a skirmish game if I want to fight armies then we have Warhammer ect.. for that.

In my mind, D&D has never been about complexity. I started with the circa 1977 basic stuff (Holmes, Mentzer, BECMI, etc.,). I even didn't think AD&D2e was all that complex. Now 3rd edition (what I call "not-D&D"), that was pointless complexity for no payback. 4th seems like a step back in the right direction after a mis-step.

Throughout the reviews, the buzz, the rumours etc., of the last 6 months about 4th edition, I've been very negative about it. It sounded like it was going to be more of the same of what I didn't like about 3rd edition. Now that I've seen the rules (some copies were inadvertently shipped early), I'm glad I'm able to actually give it a go instead of righting it off because of my preconceptions which may or may not have anything to do with the product itself.

The introduction adventure gave me some very negative vibes. But having a quick peek in the rulebooks gave me a slightly more positive view.

Didn't the original AD&D DMG (before we got to versions 2, 3,3.5, 4) have a random dungeon section as well ?

Yup, the DMG for 1st ed. AD&D has a nice random dungeon generator. I think the Rules Cyclopedia has a method for randomly stocking dungeons too.

There was a card-based dungeon generator for 2nd Ed. as well.

3rd Ed. was more complicated than 2nd Ed. because it:

a) got rid of init modifiers on weapons (which was a mistake)

b) reduced the number of saving throw types

c) made multi-classing *much* easier

d) defined spells more clearly

e) got rid of the silly thief skill tables

f) got rid of the whole 18/00 silliness and special abilities that came with high stats

That being said, I've never like D&D, but 3.5 with VP/WP instead of HP is hard to beat. Savage Worlds does it handily.

1st Ed AD&D did have the tables.

Skirmish gaming?!? Doesn't anyone use their imagination any more? Don't DM's weave great verbal novels anymore instead of rolling dice and moving minis on a grid? Man, was I lucky back in the day to actually role-play instead of roll-play! Stats are for sissies!

I am glad to be a curmudgeon!

I'm not at all interested in using the new D&D to roleplay. If it is easily used for skirmish gaming then I would consider downloading the SRD or maybe even flipping through the books. It would have to be at least as good as miniatures games like Song of Gold and Darkness, Warrior Heroes, and Broadsword Adventures to make it worthwhile for me to buy the books new.

D&D is just another miniature game now. I played the 3rd edition after many years of not roleplaying with a very competent GM but found it very disheartening the way it seemed to be more designed for figures on a squared bored than actual role playing. From what I've read and heard the 4th edition is even more so. Talking to a games shop owner about it he said that they are still trying to say its the D&D we all know and love, but in reality, the only thing 4th edition has to do with old style D&D is the title, its like saying English football and American football are the same…

Timlillig – The SRD won't have the rules. They're not making that mistake again.

Mick- Roleplaying games often use miniatures, how do combat mechanics define what goes on when no one is rolling dice?

And shocking as it is, things change, and sometimes they even get better.

Hexxenhammer, I dont have a problem with using miniatures in roleplay, it always helped to see where the pc's actually were, what I didnt like was having to move the figures around a squared board like any other board game. One example I can give is my character was coming up to a doorway, I said I wanted him to go next to the doorway and look round but I was told I either had to be in the square next to the doorway, and not be able to see round, or the one in the doorway…
As for dice I didnt have a problem with that (did miss the good old THACO though… :-))
Mick

I never use miniature in my RPG games, we use our imagination and great descriptions of the area and situation, sometimes even using ourselves to show position inside the area in question. Why play D&D when there are far better games out there, if 4e has gone the way of a miniatures intensive game, hope they choke and WoTC can burn in hell, I have never liked that company or its practices, D&D has never been the same since they took the "A" out of AD&D. Personally I play Chivalry & Sorcery Rebirth or Runequest, d20 games just suck!

I've been dabbling in 4th edition and instead of using the squares for movement, we still use the old fashion tape measure. It does away with the fiddly squares.

Yes, this game is very miniature oriented now with characters abilities often described in detail for combat. However, I do believe the dungeoun crawl is back and I'll be taking my group in that directioon.

Skipper

I used to game D&D in the 80's and early 90's when TSR made the products.then got into Warhammer. Just Checked the new D&D players handbook and Monster Manual and these productions are top notch, very good presantation and good pictures and paper. I might want to get back into it if I can find a gaming group, but that dosen't matter now since with D&D insider you can play online I think

I've come to the conclusion that raving about, or railing out at, this or that RPG is pointless and brings low the whole endeavor. The truth is all these games are as great as we, as a group, make them.
Good luck on your die rolling and have fun. :)