"1805 Russian Uniform Question" Topic

As I understand it, at Austerlitz the Russian infantry was essentially divided into grenadier regiments, musketeer regiments, and jager regiments. I have a question about the grenadier regiments. Each regiment had 3 battalions.

There would be 1 battalion in grenadier shako or mitre and then 2 fusilier battalions, all comprising the grenadier regiments. In the old uniform style, the fusiliers wore a short mitre similar to the Prussian SYW fusilier mitre while the grenadier battalion wore a traditional grenadier mitre. What happens when the regiment changes over to the shako? The grenadier battalion now wears a shako with the busch, but what style of headgear are the fusilier battalions wearing? Is it a shako without the busch?

For musketeer battalions, the grenadier battalion would be wearing the shako w/busch and the musketeer battalions would have the plain, unadorned shako – is that correct?

Fusilier battalions in grenadier regiments are essentially indistinguishable from musketeer battalions in musketeer regiments – ie standard plain shako

According to the info in Viskovatov, Fusiliers were ordered into the same shakos with busch plume as Grenadiers, then some months later the Fusilier shako was ordered not to have the Brass grenade above the cockade, but otherwise they were the same.

"13 February 1805 — In all Grenadier regiments, the former grenadier and fusilier caps of combatant lower ranks are replaced by new ones based on the pattern established in 1803 for noncombatants, except not quilted. There is a brass grenade above the cockade; with a brass button on the chin strap and with a thick horsehair plume. 19 1/4 inches high and about 8 inches wide (Illus. 1299). For privates this plume is completely black and the shako is without any other decoration besides the grenade, cockade, and small pompon (Illus. 1299). For noncommissioned officers the plumes have a white top with a yellow stripe in its middle and the shakos have gold galloon around the top edge of the crown (Illus. 1300-1); for company drummers and for fifers the plumes are red and the shakos are as for privates (Illus. 1302); for battalion and regimental drummers and for musicians the plumes are red with the tops and the shakos as for noncommissioned officers (Illus. 1302) (678).
12 June 1805 — For Fusilier battalions of Grenadier regiments, the previously described shakos are ordered not to have grenades (679)."

The musketeer battalions still had a cockade (black/orange) and a small battalion coloured plume on their shakos.

Der Alte Fritz,

I understand your question all too well having done my 25mm Russian Napoleonics with Old Glory's 1805 range. As I read it, it depends on the year as the varying sources will note when the large plume was dropped.

The grenadier battalion of the fusilier regiments initially had the large plume but later dropped it, partially because of changed standards, partially because of Barclay de Tolly's letter to the czar back in 1803.

The question that drove me nuts for a while is how the unit designations work. I once asked George Nafziger this question but didn't get an answer and had to turn to Russian sources (such as Zweguintzow's translation in French) before I confirmed the answer to my question. In other words, the grenadier battalion in musketeer regiments is the 1st battalion. This is all related to painting poms etc.

So in summary the musketeer regiment adopted the newer shako at a later date, but the cylindrical shako had the big/tall bush plume for the grenadier battalion. Also don't forget that the musicians had a red plume (large and bushy) while other grenadier troops in the musketeer regiment had black plumes or black with white on top (and orange stripe) for NCOs. There are variations on this based on unit supply as per any other army and campaign.

If this doesn't answer your question, let me know and I can either respond here or write off line and quote books and page numbers for you.

Shortcut: are you saying that BOTH the grenadier battalion and the two fusilier battalions were wearing the tall plume after February 1805? And that the only difference would be brass grenade or no brass grenade? Please confirm this.

Machine said:

The grenadier battalion of the fusilier regiments initially had the large plume but later dropped it,

Did you mean to say that the FUSILIER battalion dropped the plume (i.e is that a typo?). Now I am getting confused. BTW, I am painting some of the Old Glory 1805 Russians that Dave Alsop sculpted. They are wonderful castings – too bad the range wasn't completed to include the command figures.

We will get to the right answer, I am sure of that.

Der Alte Fritz,
From what I have read in Viskovatov BOTH the fusilier and grenadiers in the grenadier regiments had the tall busch plume. In the musketeer regiments the grenadier battalion had the busch plume if not wearing the mitre. The new AB range of 1805-1807 Russians in greatcoat will be released in the near future and won't have a fusilier figure because they wore the same shako as grenadiers. I don't know if TB is planning on sculpting the mitre for the fusiliers and grenadiers in the greatcoat.

aleeper21 said:

From what I have read in Viskovatov BOTH the fusilier and grenadiers in the grenadier regiments had the tall busch plume. In the musketeer regiments the grenadier battalion had the busch plume if not wearing the mitre.

This is the same impression that I had. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

aleeper21,
Contact me by email if you could,

Cheers,
Rob
Eureka Miniatures USA
robwalter556@yahoo.com

Yes, that is what I meant – the bit in quotation marks is from Vol 10b of Visk, as translated by Mark Conrad. The only proviso I would add is the usual one regarding when things would actually come into service as opposed to when regulations say they should have. I would quite happily match Grenadiers Regts in tall/short mitre with ones in Shako for 1805.

Mark Conrad has a translation of a report from the Chef of a Dragoon regt who is asking for replaced hats as the ones the Regt were issued with have worn out during active service against the Turks. A point of interest is that the date of issue of the hats given is after the date given for the introduction of the helmet. I've just tried to link to it, but his site seems to be unavailable at the moment. It seems reasonably safe to assume that stocks of existing items would be used up before the new stuff would be issued, so no-one could criticise which ever way you go. I also seem to recall a painting by Baron Lejeune (who was there and should know)of Eylau, and there are Grenadiers in mitre shown.

Perhaps, you are thinking of this painting by Gros:

link

Gros it is,thanks Steve.

I agree with alseeper's clarification with one caveat. Some of the grenadier regiments did not switch from mitre to cylindrical shako right away as I understand it. The mitre remained with the grenadier regiments for a small period of time (except for the Pavlov's of course).

What I suggest is you consider whether your army represents 1805, 1805-1807, 1807-1812, or 1812+. I would expect to see the mitre on grenadier regiment battalions even in 1807, just because regulations didn't necessitate immediate replacements.

I plan to have my Russian force represent the period 1805-07 so that they can fight my French in bicorns. I also plan to mix up mitres and shakos for the grenadiers and bicorns and shakos for the musketeers. This is a very colorful army, uniform-wise, with an interesting mix of old (SYW-ish) and new (shakos etc).

Now, if I could only figure out the flags. Do all of the regiments in the same inspection (1805-07) have the same flag style and colors, or does each regiment have its own unique flag?

The flags vary. The general rule is that each regiment has one main flag and 5 secondary flags in the field. I.e. the difference between the regimental and battalion flags. Each regiment has different colors depending on the originating location of the regiment.

I too have a mixture for my 1805-1807 army. To distinguish on the game table, I decided on the following:

1. grenadier regiments (all battalions) – mitre caps
2. musketeer regiments (grenadier battalions) – shako w/big plume
3. musketeer regiments (musketeer battalions) – bicorne just because I love the earlier uniform – i.e. I painted way too many 1812 Russians and got bored with the look.
4. jagers (or jaegers if you prefer) – shako w/out the plume. I could have mixed the bicorne and shako sans plume for musketeer battalions and jagers but kept it simple.

All of the above would share "some" facing colors on the uniform based on the inspection. The flags would vary. I also painted non-jagers with white pants and jagers with green pants with the appropriate markings.

I should have added that since Barclay de Tolly wrote to the Czar in 1803 and indicated that grenadier battalions in non-grenadier regiments were not in any way elite in terms of training, ability, morale, that the concept of grenadier battalions in musketeer regiments should be abolished. Because of the Russian high command assessment, I wanted to be able to distinguish between grenadiers on the gaming table because I am treating their morale and combat efficiency differently. I know you and I have both been on another thread regarding my preference for Shako over ITGM, both systems work so please I'm not slamming anyone/any rules. With Shako though, I need to distinguish the morale of the troops and can readily do this on the game table by distinguishing between grenadier types. It's not a historical uniform use precedent which justifies my choice of figure sculpts and their allocation.

Cheers,

M

Unique – the Hourtoulle books on "Austerlitz" and "Eylau to Friedland" as as good a place to start for colour illustrations, the Osprey and Rawkins books also have the tables but no colour illustrations.

Here is a game report from another site, it's a 15mm game, and the pictures aren't in close-up of the Russian flags, but it should be enough to give you the general idea.

link

Machine: I like your "grenadier system" and I think that I will copy your idea, if you don't mind. That is a great way to incorporate the different head gear styles into a period army. I will have some bicorn musketeer regiments and some shako musketeer regiments in my army. Both look nice.

I don't plan to use ITGM in my eventual 1:10 ratio armies, preferring instead to working on a Napoleonic version of Bill Protz's BAR rules for the SYW.

Shortcut: I agree, those Hourtoulle books are simply wonderful and I use them as painting guides. They are very well organized and are worth the price.

I am not familiar with BAR rules for the SYW and am looking for recommendations for SYW and War of the Spanish Succession. I'll look for these – thanks for the recommendation. Arty Conliffe (Shako) did suggest to me that I consider Shako for SYW and War of the Spanish Succession, with modifications of course. I indicated that I would consider it, but being lazy, I'm also open minded to try and see if an existing set of rules will capture the flavor without having to reinvent the wheel.

As regards the 1805 uniforms – I have been tempted to intersperse more shakos in the musketeer regiments too, similar to what you implied in your post, but acquired a substantial (arguable word/definition on this site) number of Old Glory 1805 25mm Russians in bicorne. Unfortunately, Old Glory 25mm didn't make the jager shako with the double peak when I bought my stock so I haven't got true jager figure castings. Perhaps they have since added them to the line or someone else has.

1:10 ratio? – hmm, what is the average size game you might play and how many hours would it take to play such a game using the BAR system?

Thanks

M

One other note on the flags – because a regiment is in a specific inspection, it doesn't mean it even has the same style of flag (albeit with different colors to match the colors of the facing of the regiment). The flags were issued in 3 different groups (mostly) and the style of eagles varied, as did the leaf pattern etc. Oddly, the foreign sources don't add much except on flag pole color and a couple omissions. The Osprey on the flags covers the Russians quite well. I've only found 4 or 5 mistakes as I recall.

We usually get around 9 or 10 game turns in 4 or 5 hours. With larger 60 figure battalions, we need a huge table and play on a 6 by 24 ft table with two parallel back table of the same length but with a 3ft width. The aisles don't exist, a la the WHC. We usually have 12 ot 16 battalions per side, so this is brigade level gaming. It is not everyone's cup of tea, but I'd like to give it a try eventually.

I'm betting it looks impressive. 60 figure battalions makes me drool at the thought – as you noted though, the draw back is table space, which unfortunately I don't have. I may have to move and join you. :)

HI THIS WAS MY OLD POST THAT I REPORT HERE IN ORDER TO MAKE JUST ONE POST

Hi everyone,
I read the 3 or 4 posts regarding this topic, because I wanted to create my Russian Army for the battle of Austerlitz.
I simply summarize the information I've gotten here:
Every Grenadier Regiment had:
1 battalion grenadiers + 2 battallions fusiliers
Every Musketeer Regiment had:
1 battalion grenadier + 2 battalion musketeer.

The problem is the head-wear of the Grenadiers (and therefore of the Fusiliers). Did they fight with mitre or shako?
According to the information I've gotten, surely at the battle of Austerlitz fought with the mitre the following battalions of grenadiers:
*Novij Ingermanland Musketeer Rgt
*Old (starij) Ingermanland Musketeer Rgt
*Moskowskij (grenadier regiment)
*Vladimirskij Musketeer Rgt
*Kievskij (grenadier regt)
*Fanagoriskij (grenadier regt)
*Narvskij Musketeer regt
*Malorossiski (grenadier regt)

(Obviously there is also the Pavlov regiment and some others that by sure wore the mitre at the epoch, but they didn't participate to the battle of Austerlitz: *Pavlov, *Ekaterinenbourg etc )
Starting from an information about the Caucasian inspection where it is told that "all men of that inspection"already wore the shako, I considered that if the grenadiers of that regiment in that inspection wore mitre also the other regiment of the same inspection did the same; this system will give a quite accurate idea of the regiments that at the battle of Austerlitz wore the mitre. And so:
*ARCHANGEL Musketeerl Regiment: Lithuania Inspection (where there is the Ekaterinenbourg Regiment) so its grenadiers wore the mitre.
*PSKOV Musketeer Regt: Lithuania Inspection (as above); grenadiers with mitre
*JAROSLAVSKIJ Musketeer Regt: Dniestr Inspection (where there was the Novj Ingermanland regiment with mitre); its grenadiers wore mitre
*BRIANSKIJ Musketeers Regt: Ucraina Inspection (where there was the Malorusskij Regt with mitre) its grenadiers wore the mitre
*MOSKOWSKIJ Musketeers Regt (not to be confused with the Moskow grenadiers regt): Kiev Inspection (where there was the Narvskij regt with mitre); hence its grenadiers wore the mitre too.
*VIATSKIJ Musketeer regt: Inspection Kiev (as above): hence its grenadiers wore mitre
*KURSK and PERM Musketeers Rgt: Smolensk Inspection; no reference; hence they wore shako
*VYBORG Musketeers: Brest Inspection (whrere there was the Old Ingermanland regt with mitre ) hence its grenadiers wore mitre; NB in this inspectionb there is also the Rgt Apcheron, that is known because one of its officers wrote they got the shako just before the battle of Austerlitz; so this inspection was in transition. I prefer to think they had mitre, because I don't trust 100% on this chronicle, while the mitre of the other regiment was found on the battlefield. (but it's possible also the Shako);
*RIAZAN Musketeers rgt. Finalnd Inspection: shako
*GALICIA Musketeers: Ucraina Inspection. As above: hence mitre
*BOUTYRSK Musketeers Rgt: Kiev Inspection, As above: hence its grenadiers wore mitre too
*AZOV + PODOLSK Musketeers: Brest Inspection; as above:hence their grenadiers wore mitre
*APCHERON Musketeer regiment: shako
*NOVGOROD Musketeers: Kiev Inspection: as above; its grenadiers wore mitre
*SMOLENSK Musketeers; Ucraina Inspection; as above; its grenadiers wore mitre.
*IMPERIAL GUARD: all with shako
*LEIB-GRENADIER with shako

I IMPROVED AND CHANGED MY MIND. I STARTED TO NOTE THAT ALL THE GRENADIERS REGIMENT WHOSE HEADWEAR WERE FOUND ON THE BATTLEFIELD OF AUSTERLITZ WERE JUST MITERS.
SO I DECIDED THAT ALL THE GRENADIERS REGIMENT WORE MITERS AT AUSTERLITZ.
MOREOVER CONSIDERING THAT THE PAVLOV REGIMENT STILL WORE IN 1807 THE MITERS IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT EVEN IN THE SAINT PETERSBURG INSPECTION THEY DIDN'T CHANGE.

So I went on with the Musketeers regiments for their grenadiers regiment; I noticed that the Ukraina, Dniester, Kiev inspection wore (some evidences) the miters, while the others (brest – with exepion of the historical regiment Old Ingerland – and Lithuania Inspections) wore shako.

So for the battle of Austerlitz:
ALL Grenadiers REgiment wore miters and fusiliers too

BATTLE OF AUSTERLITZ

Old Ingerland Miter
Archangelsgorod Shako
Pskov shako shako
kiev miter
New ingerland miter
jaroslav miter
bryansk miter
vladimir miter
Vyatska miter
moscow miter
viborg shako
perm shako
kursk shako
Fanagorie miter
Butyrsk miter
Galice miter
narva miter
Pdolsk shako
malarossia miter
azov shako
smolensk miter
Apsheron shako
novgorod miter
Imperial Guard shako
Leib-grenadiers shako

Because I'm not convinced, as you are, I bring this up again:

I IMPROVED AND CHANGED MY MIND. [1]I STARTED TO NOTE THAT ALL THE GRENADIERS REGIMENT WHOSE HEADWEAR WERE FOUND ON THE BATTLEFIELD OF AUSTERLITZ WERE JUST MITERS.
[2] SO I DECIDED THAT ALL THE GRENADIERS REGIMENT WORE MITERS AT AUSTERLITZ.
MOREOVER CONSIDERING THAT THE PAVLOV REGIMENT STILL WORE IN 1807 THE MITERS [3] IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT EVEN IN THE SAINT PETERSBURG INSPECTION THEY DIDN'T CHANGE.

[1- Just because all of TWO mitres were found/ extant, does not imply, in fact it more probably excludes, THAT ALL grenadiers wore them.

[2- False assumption. A lot more would have been 'found'/ taken/ stored as trophies had it been so.

[3- Taking an 'exception' and applying that to a broader classification is the exact mistake that we now consider, so many artists and copyists succumbed too.
[3c- PAVLOV- who were not at Austerlitz anyway, but in Northern Germany/ Hanover were treated as some exception. I don't see any reason why at that time. Their 'prowess' and fame seems to have growen anecdotally since.

[3c- SAINT PETERSBURG INSPECTION- did comply and it was the 'Tsars Division' as far as I can tell. The Russian Guards had ALL BEEN issued new shakos (the leather and felt, not cardboard mockups) before the campaign of 1805 commenced.

Unlike a large proportion of the rest of the army.

Finally, I note the complete absence of any French reports or memoires citing 'actual' grenadiers visible in any combat. Thiébault for instance at close range on the Pratzen never identifies any.

Others get cited in after battle reports identifiers (ie Davout).

regards
dw

Interesting discussion, but regulation is one thing, logistics is another. If Russian logistics in 1805-1807 were like their logistics today, then I would not put to much stock in what was required and what was executed. This goes with most armies, some more, some less. As noted above, the favored units likely had what was required. The rest, not so much.

Der Alte Fritz, its your army and you are the commander, I am sure I would like anything you assemble.

dear alte fritz thanks for THIS TOPIC REFReSSING OTHER 1812- 15

Edit:::
[davew] To my horror I just discovered that this thread, whilst 'tagged' in my personal research browser, had failed to be added at an earlier stage to the missive 'Index of TMP' Napoleonic Era topics I called Redux: The Best TMP Napoleonic Related Information threads. I will correct and update this ommission later today!

>>dear alte fritz thanks

Yeah well he wrote in 2008 and this 'thread' has been resurrected twice by others… so while it has merit it also has the mix of the bad/old info. Please READ THE DATES of writing to keep up with context.

>>then I would not put to much stock in what was required and what was executed.

Oh I absolutely agree and the absolute sycophantic adherence to much written history is appallingly misguided. I have become truly disillusioned with much of my 'reference' library collected over 40-odd years.

Various authors of more or less academic expertise have tried to show this but many have been heckled down by the crowd of public opinion. Paul Dawson seems to be breaking new ground with his techical analyses of archive material, even if I can't personally agree with all his observations.

Look how long it's taken to uncover Viskovatov as just an encyclopaedist- tyrants (take your pick..) may issue 'orders' but others had to find ways, and money, to do their bidding.

We are increasigly informed of the poor state of finances among most nations- France no better off in 1812 than it was in 1789!

>>As noted above, the favored units likely had what was required.

I don't read it as that at all. St.P was the cultural, social and very public heart of Imperial Russia, and like Paris, you would expect its 'garrison' to look the best.
Under Paul before he took over it was an 'experimental' depot and to some extent A. seems to have continued that.

The guard in 1804-05 were a fairly small compact force and I have no problem seeing them well dressed, as an example, before and in preference to those components due to be issued the line.

The above context of stating 'one did, they all did' is clearly not persuasive or proven. Some units wore mitres, yes, not all. Exceptions neither confirm nor support the hypothesis stated.

'Exceptions' are outliers of data and information and not creators of a 'normalcy' that gamers want to believe in.

regards, davew