"The Battles That Every Ancients Gamer Needs to Play?" Topic

If you made a list of the "top 10" historical battles that every Ancients gamer should play, what would they be?

Lake Tresamine (or however you spell it)….

Romans v Carthaginian.. a good scrap!

1. Platea
2. Pharsalus
3. Raphia
4. Gaugamela
5. Mantinea
6. Salamis
7. Arginusae
8. Marathon
9. Cunaxa
10. Mons Badonicus

Also you should try making a fun game out of Thermopylae sometime. It is worth doing as a skirmish even if a grand tactical redo of it is usually pretty dull.

You just made those words up didn't you…??

/me shows his amazing lack of knowledge..

Phil
I think it was a challenge to see which ones would be bleeped…

This would be a great thread for Naps and many other era too.

Hey Pictor, no Kadesh?

too big a period. I restrict myself to the Roman era lest I got insane and broke. So finding armies for most of the battles would be quite a challenge.

But I think Kadesh needds to be added for the chariot era.

And just from the Roman era we need either Adrianople or Strasbourg for the Late Imperial Roman period. Chalons was pretty decisive. Then there's 2nd Cremona in the Year of the Four Emperors (AD 69) and the Sambre during Ceaser's conquest of Gaul. Trebbia River during 2nd Punic War is a good fight. So is Zama.

I would offer Troy and Syracuse. Because who doesn't love ancient street-fighting?

Although, now that I think about it- those two (Troy and Syracuse) are more campaigns than battles. So maybe I take those back.

No Cannae?

I guess when I was thinking ancients I was running from about 650 BC to about 350 AD.

A few that haven't been mentioned before :
Magnesia
Khadesh
Bibracte

Chaeronea – my favorite
Zama
Gaugamela
Ipsus
Pharsalus

Troy
Thermopole

Thermopylae: the "300" version, complete with rhinoceroses.

Vindobona: the opening scenes of "Gladiator", with lots of flaming… stuff.

Somewhere along one side or the other of Hadrian's Wall: as in "King Arthur", with lots of flaming stuff.

Jerusalem: the siege from "Kingdom of Heaven", with lots of flaming stuff.

Orleans: as in "The Messenger", with Milla Jovovitch (hubba hubba) and some other flaming stuff.

Do those, and you cover the spectrum of ancient and medieval warfare in the popular consciousness. No need to bother with historical… stuff.

Allen

Alesia – I'll supply the romans, you paint up the gauls, please….

Which Chaerona?

Add in Pydna or Cynocephalae
Alia (got to let the Gauls sack Rome in pre-emptive revenge for all those other ones…..)
Then of course…

Hastings
Manzikert
(Pick any 2 Crusades battles – Doryleum, Antioch, Ascalon, Hattin, Acre, etc)
Ain Jaluyt
Dyrachium
Lechfeld
Fornovo
Agincourt or Crecy or Poitiers
St Albans or Bosworth or Towton

et….

Still terribly euro- and anglo-centric tho…..

Battle of the Indus – Mongols vs. Khwarizmians under Jalal al Din. Kublai Khan vs. his nomadic kinsman who revolted against him. Temujin and his horde vs. Wang Khan and Jamuka's hordes.

Timurlane vs. the Golden Horde.

Not so "Euro-centric" any more :-)

Thermopylae!!!

But only if I get to use WH40k v2 super powered Heroes to represent the valiant defenders.

Allen, don't forget "Troy". Didn't it have flaming stuff? I forget.

Even if not, it had Achilles as a ninja.

Battle of the Titans v. Olympians, unk BC
Battle for Kalydon, 14th C. BC
Seven Against Thebes & Epigoni, 14th C. BC
Battle at the Ships, Trojan War, 13th C. BC
Caprysema, 743 BC, First Messenian War
Lake Regillus, 497 BC, Rise of Rome
Cunaxa, 401 BC, Expedition of Cyrus the Younger
Tyre, 332 BC, Alexander's Asiatic Campaigns
Arbela, Oct 1, 331 BC, Alexander's Asiatic Campaigns
Ipsus, 306 BC, Wars of the Diodachoi
Camerinum, 298 BC, Third Samnite War
Lake Vadimon, 283 BC, Gallic Invasion of Italy
Heraclea, 280 BC, Pyrrhus' Invasion of Italy
Raphia, 217 BC, Wars of the Diodachoi
Cannae, 216 BC, Second Punic War
Zama, 202 BC, Second Punic War
Magnesia, 190 BC, Greco-Roman Wars
Actium, Sep 2, 31 BC, Wars of the Second Triumvirate (Naval)

I'm sure I left a bunch off, but enough for starters. These should keep the painting table occupied for some time. Oh, and some of the skirmishers should be fine in various armies.

My favourites (most, if not all, have already been mentioned, but what the hey):

1. Qadesh (Hittites Rule!);
2. Charonaea (Macedonians v Greeks);
3. Ipsus (Despite Antigonos One-Eye being my all-time favourite Successor, I would love to see Seleucus' elephant corps on the table);
4. Heraclea (Pyrrhus v Romans) – first encounter between phalanx and legion;
5. Cannae (Hannibal v Romans) – the perfect battle?
6. Magnesia (Seleucids v Romans) – one of the most exotic Ancient armies of them all v grim killing machine;
7. Aqua Sextiae (Romans v Germans) – Marius being one of my favourite Roman generals;
8. Pharsalus – the beginning of the end of the Republic?
9. Chalons-sur-Marne – Rome and allies v. The Rest Of The World!
10. Taginae (Byzantines v Ostrogoths) – Empire strikes back ;).

All of these battles have influenced my interest in Ancients, and troops from one or both sides in each of these battles are represented in my collection (either 15mm or 25mm). I have played in refights of Magnesia and Chalons; fantastic gaming experiences.

Great thread, Ed.

Cheers,
Paul.

- Getting 4000 points of Almoravids past the wife, Leeds,2008

Pat

>>> Allen, don't forget "Troy". Didn't it have flaming stuff? I forget.

Well, there was flaming Patroclus, and flaming Hector, and a bunch of flaming Troy at the end…

>>> Even if not, it had Achilles as a ninja.

Not as impressive as Orlando reprising his immortal elf assassin role. You know, I bet Deiphobus was pretty ticked at missing out on his chance with Helen.

Allen

It would also be interesting to know why people made their picks.

Turning point in history?
Tactical excellence?
Could go either way in a refight?
Great uniforms?

Not a strictly a battle, but the War between Umma and Lagash in 2500 BC would be a good place to start.

Reasons
It has chariots pulled by donkeys.
It has interesting infantry models.
It is the oldest recorded conflict between political states with which I am familiar.

These I've either played or hosted at cons, and they're a lot of fun

Gaugamela
Cynoscephalae
Sambre
Magnesia
lotsa Trojan War stuff

These are on the futures list
Quadesh
Isus or Granikos
Plataea
Chaeronaea

I love DeanMoto's idea of gaming Seven Against Thebes and the Epigoni

Oooh, lots of good ones above. Here's my list:

1. Magnesia (yeah, others have it, but it's my favorite ancient battle for lots of reasons.)
2. Leuctra – I'm surprised nobody else mentioned this, but then some folks consider hoplite on hoplite action to be a bit boring. Still, Epaminondas versus the Spartans? Gotta love it.
3. Raphia (Can you tell I'm an Antiochus the Great fan? – even though I picked battles he lost.)
4. Qarqar, 854BC – You need the Assyrians represented on a list like this, I think.
5. Talas – Okay not really an 'Ancients' battle (751AD) but T'ang China versus the Ummayyad Caliphate!
6. Tunes – Regulus takes a beating in a bad day for Rome, but a potentially pretty even fight.
7. Actium – I want to include a naval battle in this list and I think this one is more interesting than Salamis. There are even better ones to be drawn from the Peloponnesian war, but not that I can pull from the top of my head.
8. "Fight for the Ships" in the Trojan War. Sure it's more myth than history, but this would be one of the most picturesque and dramatic table top scenarios from the Trojan war with the earthworks and ships on the table and the desparate position of the Greeks.
9. Crimesos River – I'm an absolute sucker for Timoleon. Being something of a romantic I choose to believe Plutarch's whole Timoleon bio hook, line and sinker. Even if you don't though, it's still a great wargame scenario with Carthaginian numbers stacked against Syracusan weather, terrain and situational advantages.
10. Pharsalus – Caesar, Pompey and the whole rest of the gang, this one narrowly beats out a bunch of others I have for the #10 slot, today, maybe I'd feel different tomorrow.

My 10
1. Cannae – Played it with my son when he was six and got his first Punic War toy soldiers. He was the Romans, he started crying as soon as he saw the cavalry circling around behind him. I said "What's the matter?" He said, "It's a trap, I'm going to lose." I said, "Don't feel bad, Varro did too. What could you have done to stop it?" He's never been double enveloped in a war game since. (Time-tripping, sorry)
2. Raphia – Elephants, both sides, underdog won.
3. Heraclea – Pyrrhus against the Romans. I love to see the invicible legionaries become vincible.
4. Tunes – First Punic War – Mercenaries beat the Romans. My son's middle name is Xanthippos.
5. Actium – Decisive naval battle between dissimilar Roman fleets.
6. Cunaxa – 1-1 if you have 750,000 Persian miniatures.
7. Issos – More playable than Guagamela.
8. Mantinea 418 B.C. – Spartan high tide.
9. Peloponnesian amphibious assault on Pylos – Skirmish game.
10. Zama – Close battle between arguably the two best Generals ever.

I thought the "ancients" period ended with 1066. Wargamers have always said so.

I thought the ancient period ended in 476 AD. Anyway…

Some of my favorites that I have gamed are:

First Chaeronea
Second Chaeronea
2nd Mantinea
Issus
Pharsalus
Zama
Hydaspes
Granicus
Dyrrachium
Carrhae (Object lesson in stupidity)
Magnesia

- Greg

No-one has mentioned Megiddo, c.1480BC, Thutmose III vs the Canaanites. It is the earliest well documented battle in history.

I would say any battles that are documented well-enough to stage a refight rather than a fantasy battle ( this makes the possible candidates far fewer) or where the nature of the refight can be used to test hypothese about the original event. Also, refighting a well-documented battle is a good way to test out a rule-set.
On this basis the list does become very Greco-Roman because of our bias in sources but also more exciting to fight IMO. Also Hydaspes,Granicus, Marathon, Carrhae, Zama, for example, could be fought in several variations depending on how one interprets the sources , each one being an interesting battle in itself.
p.s. Mons Badonicus was a fantasy siege,like Troy.

One of my favourites has not been mentionned and that would be Alesia in the Caesar's Gallic Wars. This would include representations of the town, the doublewalls and a hude Gallic relief force.

Heraclea, 280 BC, Pyrrhus' Invasion of Italy'

This is fairly even matched game, a 'soldier's battle' with the fickleness of elephants thrown in.
If an ancient rule set can make a good game of this battle, it usually is a successful game set.
WAB is particularly good at this battle because the rules for the Roman legions and the phalanx are quite in balance.
Unfortunately WAB does not seem to have an official Epirote army list, unlike FoG and DBx.
JeffJ

Mons Graupius