"LVT's--What color?" Topic

I planning on painting some 15mm LVT's. My initial research indicates that the LVT 1's and 2's were all painted naval
gray in the Pacific. The armored gun support vehicles,
LVT(A)1's were also gray, at least through 1943 or early 1944. The LVT(A)4's'which came along in 1944-5 seem to be olive drab.

My assumption is that the unarmored LVT 1's and 2's were
all assigned to naval amtrac battalions and the LVT(A)4
was controlled directly by the USMC, hence the color difference. Also earlier war seems to be mostly gray,
and later war tends toward olive drab.

But I've seen photos of all types in olive drab, or even
camo schemes including types not mentioned above.I get the
impression there was no set standard.

Any help would be appreciated.

I believe I have seen some of the LVT 2's depicted in green, but as you mention, that is probably a mid to late war scheme.

I think there were some in a sand/green braod striped scheme as well, but not 100% sure about that.

It's a bit hard to tell from black and white photos and film footage, but fortunately, there is some in color for the Pacific landings.

While we're at it, I would also like to know how many were in a battalion, and/or smaller units. I seem to recall that it was about 25 for a battalion, but not 100% sure about that – haven't found more than one or two references alluding to that rather vaguely. I would also like to know how many that equates to for a platoon/company.

Good luck on getting your needed info.

Best regards,

Rob

All operational used LVT were in ambhibious tractor battalion controlled by the USMC or the Army. Likewise the LVT(A) were in amphibious tank battalions. Navy ha no role in these units except in bringing them in front of the enemy shore.

Actually until 1944 the basic scheme was navy gray to "camouflage" them on the sea (the amtanks were supposed to provide fire support from the water until medium tanks could be landed). It bear also a direct link to the first utilization of the amphibious tractor battalions at guadalcana las supply shuttles between ships and sea (logistical role).

Then in light of the increaed ground role the amtracks were first painted green (tere is some debate if that happened during the forasger operations or right before peleliu.

At Iwo Jima the vechicles were camufaged with varios sand or brown stripes. At Okinava some were camouflaged some not. Usually the army stuff was overall green and the USMC camouflaged.

I've always painted my LVT(A)1 in green, but they represent an Army amtank unit. MAtches the one on display in the Patton museum at Ft Knox. Nice white star on the sides.

I've done a fair bit of research regarding these vehicles and their paint schemes. Here's what I can tell you.

A) Initial LVTs (of any sort) were in navy blue-gray, because it was the Navy budget that paid for them so it was their call. The official color was 5-0 Ocean Gray, a medium
slate blue-gray.

B) Because the LVTs were being used more and more inland in a support role (to haul troops and supplies, or provide fire support), the Marines were quite unhappy with the color scheme and voiced their complaints. Starting in May 1944 amtracs were painted in olive drab at the factory, and any vehicles that were in the shop for repairs were also painted olive drab. But plenty of craft still had navy grey after May 1944.

C) After Saipan (June 1944) the Marines took steps to paint their vehicles in two-color camo.

D) By Iwo Jima, the Marines were using a three-color camo.

Throughout this period, you could still find navy grey, regular olive drab, or variations of the two or three-color camo.

I have two good books with color plates of various types of Amtracs (Amtracs in Action – Squadron #31, and US Amtracs and Amphibians at War 1941-45 (indicated with *). Those color plates show:

LVT-1 in navy blue-gray dated Dec 1942 (Torch Landings)*
LVT-1 in navy blue-gray dated Nov 1943 (Tarawa)*
LVT-1 in navy grey dated Nov 1943 (Tarawa)
LVT-1 in navy blue-gray dated Nov 1943 (Bougainville)
LVT(A)-1 in navy gray dated early 1944
LVT(A)-2 in navy gray dated Feb 1944 (Kwajalean)
LVT(A)-1 in navy blue-gray dated Jun 1944 (Saipan)*
LVT(A)-1 in navy blue-gray dated Jun 1944 (Saipan)* (different beach)
LVT(A)-4 in navy blue-gray dated Jun 1944 (Saipan)* (different beach)
LVT-4 in two-color camo dated July 1944 (Tinian)
LVT(A)-4 in two-color camo dated Aug 1944 (Tinian)* (see note 1)
LVT(A)-1 in olive drab dated Sep 1944 (Peleliu)
LVT(A)-4 in olive drab dated Sep 1944 (Peleliu)
LVT(A)-2 in three-color camo dated Feb 1945 (Iwo Jima)* (see note 2)
LVT(A)-4 in three-color green/tan camo dated Feb 1945 (Iwo Jima)
LVT(A)-4 in three-color green/tan camo dated Feb 1945 (Iwo Jima)*
LVT-4 in olive drab dated Feb 1945 (Iwo Jima) (see note 2)*
LVT-2 in three-color green/tan camo dated Feb 1945 (Iwo Jima)
LVT(A)-1 in olive drab dated Feb 1945 (Ryukus)*
LVT-4 in olive drab dated 1945 (Philippines)

Note 1: The text for this color plate says that the Marines took immediate steps after Saipan to camo their vehicles. Source of color and precise scheme is not known. The eexample shows large areas of light sand painted over the navy blue-gray.

Note 2: Text for this color plate notes the "typical" three-colorcamo from Iwo Jima. Color film from the battle suggests that the most common scheme was a pattern of light sand and red-brown over the normal olive drab. HOWEVER, the text goes on to say that while some companies went with camo on Iwo Jima, others companies just left their vehicles in olive drab.

So it appears that everything was navy grey up until May 1944, and that after that date, new vehicles were olive drab, and old vehicles that were in for repairs would be repainted olive-drab. The Marines took steps of their own to camo some of their vehicles, but not all.

And ad-hoc camo could be applied on the fly by the crews of course. Smear some mud on them once they come ashore, or some oil and then toss on some dirt, etc.

I haven't come across anything that suggested the Army opted for any sort of camo, and may have simply gone with whatever came from the factory.

Steve

Thanks for the time and effort involved in all the responses guys. With this wealth of information I certainly have all I need to make an informed decision on painting my LVT's for a Pacific scenario I'm planning.
This is really appreciated.

Tiger … do you have a specific island at a specific date and time in mind for your scenario? Or is your scenario a generic battle that will try and capture the PTO essence without being pinned down to an actual place and time?

If I knew the battle I might be able to help more.

Might I suggest contacting these folks?

link

link

SeattleGamer,

It is generic. Set in 1944. Using Command Decision TOB.
I'm painting the LVT-1's amd LVT-2's gray and the armored
gun support LVT's OD or camo.

My reasoning is that the LVT 1's and 2's were a gray color until late war, and even then some in gray persisted, according to your information. So, this way I can use them with a degree of accuracy for the entire war. The armored versions, particularly the LVT(A)4, were introduced relatively late, and were mostly green or camo-ed much of their existance. Besides I liked Ray Garbee's preference of white stars on OD.

BTW, your knowledge on this subject is quite impressive.
Thanks again.

Jerry

Scott,

Thanks for the links. They confirm what the others have
posted. This quality of networking is the TMP at its very
best, IMO.

Jerry

Hey Tiger.

For "Sometime in 1944" going gray for the LVT transports works fine, and is actually the right way to go. Up until May 1944 that was their official color. After, only new vehicles would receive the olive drab, unless an older vehicle went into the repair shop and received new paint.

Going olive drab for the tank-like (A)-1 and (A)-4 support vehicles can easily be rationalized. While transport types did go inland, it was more to haul supplies and troops near battle areas. Whereas the support vehicles were actually used to support attacks and go into battle. This made them more likely to be destroyed, thus replaced (with new vehicles, which would have the new olive drab paint).

Camo didn't start to show up until late 1944, and then it was adopted at company level, not battalion, so you can skip camo and be fine right up to the end of the war.

The only extra painting tips I can offer are these. Starting with Saipan (June 1944) initial waves of LVTs had colored bars painted on their sides and rear. The color used, and the number of bars indicated the beach. So two red bars would mean Red Beach Two, while 1 blue bar meant Blue Beach One, etc.

Typical beach "colors" were red, blue, green and yellow (although Orange and white were part of the initial color selection). The list of official colors were expanded to include purple, scarlet and black by 1944. For gaming purposes, if you keep to the first four colors, you are good for the entire war.

Here are some examples of two yellow stripes to give you an idea of their size and thickness: picture
picture

Hope those links work. Only those vehicles that were to be used in the initial landings had these markings (it was to aid unit organization during the confusion and chaos of landings). Vehicles that were to come on later did not have these markings. So you can add them or skip them depending on if your scenario is supposed to be an opposed landing, or a battle taking place inland.

The other tip, at some point the top brass listened to the crew complaints that those BIG stars were like BIG invitations to "AIM HERE". So they authorized the use of smaller stars. And there were plenty of vehicles that had no stars (I have yet to track down the dates regarding the use of small, large and no stars). However, the color plates seem to indicate the shift from large to small to none probably happened "Sometime during 1944" so again, you can go with large stars, smaller stars, or no stars and probably be fine for your scenario.

Happy to help.

Steve

Steve,
Thanks again. I think I'll paint the bars on the LVT sides.
One could take the posts in this thread and have a fairly
complete history of the paint schemes for LVT's in WWII.
Jerry

I should add that the LVT-1 was phased out of frontline use by the end of 1943 (last used at New Britain, Dec 1943), so technically they wouldn't be used in an assault in 1944. The LVT-2 replaced it (serving alongside the -1 at Tarawa and New Britain, and then with the LVT-4 through the end of the war).

The LVT-4 was first used on Saipan (June '44), was ultimately produced in far greater numbers than the -2, and saw service through the end of the war.

LVT(A)-1s were used from Kwajalien (Feb '44) onward, and the LVT(A)-4 from Saipan onward, so you are good to go for both "Sometime in 1944".

Steve

Steve,
So actually there was no overlap of the LVT-1 and the LVT (A)4, at least as far as their use in cobmat, is this correct?
Oh well, I'll try cook up a scenario involving an effort
to take a Japanese held secondry island in the Marianas or someplace in which the US planners, short of amphib
equipment due to other simultanious operations, decided to use what was available.
Jerry

That's correct, as far as I have been able to find out. Last combat use of LVT-1s was New Britain (Dec '43), and first use of LVT-4s was Saipan (Jun '44).

I certainly see no reason why your scenario can't include LVT-1s with LVT-4s. The operation could be an emergency, ad-hoc affair, and they cobbled together the last of the oldest model along with the very first shipment of the newest model.

LVT-1s were first used on Guadalcanal (Aug '42), but only to ferry supplies ashore, not men, and they were not used in the "landing". Lessons learned there led the Marines to appreciate their abilities more, and they were next used on Bougainville (Nov '43), but again, for supplies.

Tarawa (Nov '43) was the first time they were used to haul troops during the initial assault (this was also the first time the new LVT-2s were used), and they were credited with saving thousands of lives, and probably making the difference between a hard-fought victory, and a defeat.

The LVT-2s were better than the earlier model, and so the LVT-1s were phased out after New Britain (Dec 43). Bear in mind the battle for New Britain stretched on for many months, so I would guess that some LVT-1s were still in theater being used in combat zones until they could be replaced (either by -2s or -4s).

The LVT-4 was a much better vehicle than the -2, and ultimately became the main landing craft for Marines in assault waves.

FYI 1,225 LVT-1s were built (41-43), 2,962 LVT-2s were built (43-44) and 8,351 LVT-4s were built (43-45). The LVT-2s saw service until the end of the war so not all Amphib Tractor battalions had their old LVT-2s replaced with new LVT-4s.