"Most Detailed 80's Type Rules" Topic

Who has the most detailed, extensive charts and organization tables, piece of art in research, but completely unplayable rules for WWII. Company level preferred.

Actually, I would really like to find an excellent company level and below TOE volume on early war armies, but I am certain the above will suffice nicely.

Thanks in advance :)

I don't know if the rules are unplayable but I would put Firefly by Tabletop in the detailed rules catergory.

Tractics has to rank up there somewhere, but that came out in the 70s. Nothing like spending a quarter of an hour resolving at which angle the shell struck another vehicle!

I thought that Enola had a WW2 version of their Combat Commander modern rules. We once used all of the optional rules for ECM/jamming, bogging down, etc…, and we averaged about one turn every 90 minutes!

Jagdpanther comes to mind. The 80's were the beginning of the wave to simplify, or at least focus game mechanics.

It's certainly not company level, but the SPI board game on the Campaign for North Africa fits the well researched and unplayable aspects you are looking for.

Jagdpanther is actually a very playable game. PanzerWar would be my pick.

Hmmm…I had combat commander and battlefield commander and never could get more than 3 turns out of a game…

I think SPI's "Campaign for North Africa" is the number one in this catagory. Extensive rules that covered everything down to individual tank attrition for maintenance as you drove across the desert sands. A single unit could leave a slew of "broke down" counters behind it as it moved and then waited to be policed up by maintenance units.
Close second's would be SPI's "Wacht am Rhine" and the GDW monsters from the Europa series. Many played these games, but they required large spaces to be devoted to the game so they could be left up for, days, weeks, months (and years?).
You're desire to find TO&E info down to company level I don't think you will find. I think most games of the period focused down to battalion level. The "Europa" series games that covered the early part of the war are very detailed and can get you very close, which can then be supplemented with a little further reserch for the basic Battalion composition down to company level.
George Nafziger's printed TO&E's may be what you desire.

Firefly was actually pretty playable compared to 'Cambrai to Sinai'. I don't recall either having particualrly wonderful TO&Es though.

If you just want orgs rather than some crappy old rules then just buy a copy of Ian Shaws 'WW2 Army Organisations and Equipment' instead, or look here:

bayonetstrength.150m.com

I don't remember anyone fooling with TO&E back then, or infantry for that matter. Just as much microarmour as the table would hold.

I have Firefly, but unplayed. Part of the reason is I also have Chellenger II and FF looks similar. 5 turns in 3 hours (=10 minutes on the table), which is fine if everything is mech, but as soon as you have infantry on foot you have trouble, as the men move about 1 inch a turn. It may be realistic, but it takes too long to bother with foot.

Yaquinto's PANZER. Each type of tank has a data card, which give hit locations depending on angle of shot (0, 30, 45, 60, 90, 120, 135, 150, 180) and trajectory (rising, falling, flat). Hit locations are a % roll, and include gun and mantle as seperate locations (with different armour values).

GDW's Crusader is my candidate. Company level plotted si-move of the relief of Tobruk. Yaquinto's Panzer Series was a close second.

Actually, I would really like to find an excellent company level and below TOE volume on early war armies, but I am certain the above will suffice nicely.

So you are NOT looking for a super-detailed "unplayable" game. You simply stated it that way, figuring any game that detailed would have what you want.

I don't believe that will be the case. I have dozens of volumes on WWII TOEs. I have hundreds of wargamnes, many, many of which are for WWII.

I have yet to find a tabletop minis game, covering WWII, that included detailed TOEs. They include what the GAME wants to use for forces. They may even be close to official TOEs. But they won't be the official TOEs.

For me, when discussing TOEs, detailed is NOT this:

"Each infantry battalion has three companies. Each company will have 1 HQ stand and 2 infantry stands." Which happens to be the breakdown for an Italian Infantry company for Command Decision IV.

To me, DETAILED TOE means this:

Infantry (Fucilieri) Platoon (38 men): 1939 – 1941

HQ section (2 men):
-1 Officer (pistol)
-1 Runner
-2 x Rifle Squads (18 men each):
--1 x Rifle Group (9 men):
---1 NCO (Rifle)
---8 other ranks (Rifles)
--1 x LMG Group (9 men):
---1 Corporal (Rifle)
---2 x LMG (Breda Mod 30)
---2 gunners (pistol)
---2 loaders (Rifle)
---4 others – ammo carriers (Rifle)

Which is the actual TOE of an Italian Rifle Platoon. For a company, you would want the company-level assets to go with three platoons as shown above. For battalion, you would want the next level up of support elements, to join the three companies that make up a battalion. Etc.

All of which can take up many pages (just for that one unit type), which is why they devote entire books to the TOEs of just one nation.

Not to despair however. If you don't want to buy dozens of books on the subjects of TOEs for the various nations that interest you, then I can recommend a single, inexpensive volume that gives you details at a platoon level.

That volume?

The Gamer's Guide to WWII Small Unit Organizations and TOEs. By Bill Rutherford. Cost is currently $11. USD

It is sold by OldGlory15s. You can find it by going to their home page, selecting Quality Casting, then WWII, then Accessories, then scroll down until you find Item 5027. All you get by selecting that item is "The Gamers Guide".

Just click here: link

Yes, it is THE WORST CATALOG ENTRY I HAVE EVER SEEN. They probably never sell ANY with that entry. But that said, it is the BEST INEXPENSIVE GUIDE to WWII small unit TOEs I've ever run across.

Somewhere on TMP I gave a detailed rundown of this small volume. Look for it, or take my word on this. Belgium, Azech, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Poland, Soviet Union, UK and USA forces are covered. It's 34 pages long, with an average of 12 or more TOEs per page, in small print. Detailed as in "lists the number of vehicles, the number of soldiers, and what they are armed with".

Someone above mentioned Ian Shaws "WW2 Army Organisations and Equipment". That is not a bad little book (96 pages), but in addition to the TOEs it includes many pages dedicated to how the TOEs relate to the Combined Arms game (figure half those pages). And there are fewer TOEs.

For instance, in The Gamers Guide, there are 13 Polish formations given. In Shaws book, none. In TGG there are 30 French formations. In Shaw, 6.

They make a good compliment sometimes, since the Shaw book covers divisions, and the "tree" shows the subordinate units. It's nice to have The Gamers Guide to know what the detailed specs are for those lower level units.

I don't believe the Shaw book is currently sold new. I think you need to track down copies at used book stores. I forget which online store I found mine at several years back (someone will probably chime in since it is THE online military book finding site), but the book was $6 USD plus shipping from the UK.

Finally, there is yet another small booklet called Unit Organizations of World War II (subtitled Tables of Organization and Equipment) by D Myers. The first edition was in a smaller page format in 1975. They released it again in a larger format in 1977. Nice 80-84 page book similar to Shaw in that it details divisions, but unlike Shaw, when it drills down into smaller units, it includes the same sort of details you get from The Gamers Guide.

Again though, I think that one is long out of print.

Those three combined are a triffic triple-play for WWII TOEs for the major nations.

I sure hope that helps!

Steve

If you want super-detailed, unplayable at company level you could try Tactical Commander by Andrew Rathmell from TTG. It took the 'each-figure-fights' approach of the classic Charles Grant WW2 rules aand added immeasurable layers of detail that meant it took days to play a company-level game with maybe 180 minis in your army, plus armour.

Thank you everyone, and Thank You SeattleGamer, I have ordered the book from Old Glory. I am also looking for some of the other books mentioned.

Thanks again!

My favourite set of rules was the old Airfix Bruce Quarrie book.

From memory, they were aimed at company-level encounter games, but necessitated the player rolling a die to determine a hit, then the level of wound, and then a subsequent morale throw for the recipient of every shot fired on the table.

Not particularly detailed, but a strange mix of what should possibly have been skirmish wargaming played at a company (or, at least, platoon) level.

I played many an enjoyable solo game with these rules, and can remember one British Commando who just kept throwing sixes and won D-day single-handedly.

SeattleGamer wrote:

[…]The Gamer's Guide to WWII Small Unit Organizations and TOEs. By Bill Rutherford. Cost is currently $11. USD USD

It is sold by OldGlory15s. You can find it by going to their home page, selecting Quality Casting, then WWII, then Accessories, then scroll down until you find Item 5027. All you get by selecting that item is "The Gamers Guide".

Thanks for that information. Agreed it's the worst web page description of a book. I'll bet they're wondering why there's a sudden surge in interest. I just ordered a copy myself.

- Bob

WRG's 1988 WW2 rules give an excellent game at company level if you're prepared to learn them – they concentrate on the tactical minutae of ops, with movement, visibility and hit chances all depending on various "modes" that troops operate in – eg troops marchign are visible for miles, can't shoot but move quickly, troops "advancing" are able to lay down fire in front of them but are still fairly easy to see, troops "skirmishing" are hard to see and hit, can shoot, but dont' move far.

the modes available for troops depends upon their training and doctrine, with troops rated as fanatical, thrusting (:)), skilled, stubborn, green, irregular & maybe one or 2 others.

No longer in fashion but very good rules indeed IMO.

excume, aloyisius, what was the name of that wii ruleset?

er, I wanted to say, excuse me, of course. Sorry

WRG 1925-50.

Personally I prefer the 73 edition, much simpler.

Neither have anything approaching TO&E info though, you have to find that out yourself.

the 1973 edition is certainly simpler, but the 1988 version is a much, much better simulation IMO – the full title is "Wargames Rules for All Arms Land Warfare from Platoon to Battalion Level 1925-1950 "

Currently available on Keep Eargaming's E-bay UK page for UKL4 + p&p

there's a yahoogroup for the modern version that has the occasional discussion involving them.

Martin the 1988 version has TOE's in the back for the basic company and battalion types for all major combatants for WW2.

Thanks for that information. Agreed it's the worst web page description of a book. I'll bet they're wondering why there's a sudden surge in interest. I just ordered a copy myself.

Yeah … I can't imagine anyone every buying something for $11 USD titled The Gamers Guide. So they will probably be quite puzzled by the sudden rush for two copies! : )

All I can say is, it's quite handy. I wish it were my product, I'd be expanding on it and releasing updates to it and heck, maybe pocketing a few bucks in the process. It would have doubled in size what with all the extra info I have gathered and worked on over the past few years.

But as it is, I can just strongly recommend it. Happy to help.

Steve

Aloysius … when you say "major combatants", beyond the big five (Germany, Italy, UK/Commonwealth, USA and Russia) who else is included in the mix?

Japan IIRC

Received my copy of Gamer's Guide to WW2 today.

It is everything I was hoping it to be.

Thank You.. Seattlegamer !

My pleasure!

If there's anything specific that you are looking for, drop me a PM and I'll see if I have anything that fits.

Steve