"Anyone Interested In Eureka Royal Ecossais?" Topic

I have started painted Highlanders for the Jacobite rebellion of 1745 and one unit that I would really like to have, but is not available figure wise, is the Royal Ecossais regiment. These fellows wore a highland bonnet and a shorter coat than the normal French justaucorps coat, and they wore breeches.

There are some good drawings of the uniform in Stuart Reid's "Like Hungry Wolves" and in the Osprey Campaign book on Culloden.

I'm thinking of initiating a Eureka 100 Club request for these figures: 28mm in the conventional "Perry Style". Is anyone else interested?

As an aside, sorry, how do Eureka size up against RSM95 figs?

DAF,
You do know that OG produce a pack of these guys:

link

This is such a specific uniform worn by just one battalion
that you might have difficulty interesting others.

Although not involved in gaming the '45, I'd be interested, especially if the set were to include Royal Ecossais' grenadiers, who allegedly wore highland dress.

there was only one unit of de grassins and they seem to sell well…I for one would sign up..even if OG already have them

Yes. I could be persuaded to support this one. Not doing the 45's myself, but I'd love to see these made proper by Eureka.

I would not. I already have a unit by Old Glory.
I might be interested in the grenadiers.

As an aside, sorry, how do Eureka size up against RSM95 figs?

They are roughly the same height but a bit bulkier.

I wouldn't mix them in the same unit, but if you really wanted the unit it wouldn't look hatefully out of place.

I bought the Arquebusiers de Grassin from Eureka when they came out. They are clearly different, but not horribly out of place. Noticable different more because of the variety of poses instead of the lovely and stately march attack of the RSM line as opposed to size.

Synflood. Thanks.

Oh dear, those Old Glory figures are rather disappointing. I think that Eureka can do much better.

Oh dear, those Old Glory figures are rather disappointing. I think that Eureka can do much better.

Probably, but I have mine already, and am in no mood for a do-over.

hi I have a large Old Glory Highlander Army, for the Piquets Royal Ecossais I am going to chop off Highlander gunners heads(OG always give too many gunners!!) and put them on the body of some generic 18th cent figures I have..The Irish Brigade as a total only ever had about 300 men so I am going to feild 1 mixed unit of 12 figures on 4 bases--Similar to how I have done my cavalry…

DAF,

I see you are following Stuart Reid's extrapolation of the description of two officers into a whole battalion? The descriptions Reid quotes in 'Like Hungry Wolves' refer to Lt Oliphant and an even more spectral one of Lord John Drummond, Reid speculates this into the dress of the whole corps (with no evidence to back it up).

In one of the colour plates in his Culloden Osprey Reid has Gerry Embleton show a battalion so attired but curiously has the officer depicted in 'normal' coat and hat and not in the 'quasi-highland manner'. All in all I am very sceptical oif the extent to which Reid has stretched the evidence for the Royal Ecossais

Even Rene Chartrand in the Foreign Infantry volume of Louis XV's Army seems to fall under tha same spell. But what is the evidence? The sparse detail we have relates to officers who are very a law unto themselves. Is there any direct evidence of what the rank and file actually wore?

But if you if buy the myth good luck to you in your quest of getting the figures made. The dollies used for the Grassins would seem to offer an excellent starting point and Alan Marsh will make an excellent job of the figures.

Arch,

Do you mean you are going to put bonnets on the head of the Irish Picquets as well?

Thomas: Where is the evidence of the opposite? It can cut both ways.

If you are correct, then that simplifies matters greatly, as I could then use any number of available mid 18th Century French figures for the Royal Ecossais regiment.

Obviously I need to do more research on this uniform. I am just starting and have a ways to go yet. You bring up some good points though. Rene Chartrand will be appearing at Historicon this year as one of the guests. Perhaps I can ask him in person.

Hi No: I'm only going to do a few bases, from what I read the Piquets were dressed in standard tricorn style hats..So my Irish Brigade will be a mix..

I think the Funcken book shows the bonnet. I did some regular figs with tricorne (for Skirmish) and as the World Cup was on (France won) I named each figure after a player. Must admit I never used them for anything.

DAF

What Stuart Reid proposes is based on two officer descriptions. He has extrapolated that into how the rank and file were dressed although as far as I am aware there is no description of the rank & file dress whilst in Scotland. You know enough of general C18th practice to know that how officers may dress is not necessarily how the rank & file dressed. Taking into account that and the uniform ordinances of the French army I am sceptical that the rank & file were dressed in short coats and bonnets. I could buy into the proposition of normal coats and hats (just like the Irish Picquets) for those who came from France. Any local recruits (offciers excepted) would have been no better clothed tahn the 'vestry men' in the Government army.

Rene Chartrand in the Foreign Infantry Volume Osprey comments that when raised the regiment was raised in 1744 in Flanders in 1745 (i.e. before going to Scotland) was 'blue faced red'. He illustrates (admittedly from 1760) a plate of foreign infantry from the Royal Library in Madrid showing the RE in a laced 'normal French coat. I too would be interested to know why Rene Chartrand has has bought into the Reid speculation.

On a further point Stuart Reid got gerry Embleton to depict the stand of the RE at Culloden. In that depiction in the Opsrey MAA the rank and file are in the bonnet and cut off coat a la Lt Oliphant but the offcier Capt. Macleod is shown in normal regimental coat and hat! Go figure.

Thomas: I looked at the Mouliard plate this evening and he depicts the RE in the regular French infantry cut of uniform, so we know that the regulation uniform is a tricorn with standard justaucorps. It would make sense that the regiment was outfitted in France and maybe extra uniforms were brought over for new recruits. Since the Piquets are in regulation dress, then why not the RE as well?

Duffy mentions the RE being in blue bonnets in his book on the Forty Five, but I couldn't find a footnote to that statement in particular, but one in the same paragraph was attributed to a letter written by Lord Drummand in the achives in Vincennes. I will keep looking for something more definitive.

It would make sense that they could be fitted out in bonnets for the rest of the Highland army so they wouldn't be shot at by their own side..It would also be quite cheap and easy to do…

DAF

The answer may well lie in Vincennes! I am quite happy to beileve that at least some offciers may have dressed as Reid reports. But the rank and file I suspect are more likely to look like the Mouliard plate.

If it were not for the references to Lord John Drummond, it would be easy to dismiss Lt Oliphant's dress as being locally acquired garb as I believe he was an ex-custams officer from Aberdeen. That said I am not sure if he joined the RE in Scotland or had come with the expedition from France.

It is possible, I suppose, that RE used the Scots bonnet as an undress item instead of the the norm (bonnet de police?) but again I would expect some kind of paper trail. Both Christopher Duffy and Rene Chartrand know the French archives well.

Have to wonder if Sabretache has ever addressed an article on the uniforms of RE?

Arch,

As DAF comments the Picquets seemed to have been dressed in accordance with regulation, why not the RE? No one has ever suggested that the Picquets were in bonnets, which ought to have been the case on your suggestion.

Another facet to your suggestion is that who paid for these bonnets? The prince was not in position so to do, the French government had already paid for the uniform (including rpesumably hats) this leaves Lord John Drummond out of his own pocket. Not beyond the bounds of possibility but it presupposes a system. If the Jacobite army was uniformly in bonnets I think it is more a reflection of the widespread use of the bonnet in Scotland rather than a 'uniform system'. I have a copy of a Jacobite orderly book and a couple of journals so will see if anything is hidden away in those.

While the idea of exchanging tricorns for bonnets in order to be recognisable as Jacobite troops is tempting, the point about the Picquets seems a valid one: In their red coats, wouldn't they be even more in need of a distinguishing feature than their blue-coated Scottish colleagues? Hope I can count as an impartial observer here, being more interested in Royal Ecossais' exploits on the continent…

Patrice Menguy's otherwise excellent site,
link
unfortunately doesn't specify the regiment's dress during the excursion of 1745, and the official sources he so generously makes available online only start in 1753 for this regiment, with the ominous note "grenadiers without breeches" in 1754…

True all true, maybe because the Piquets were all from different regiments( the equivalent of flank companies) perhaps it would have been harder to get them to change their head dress where as the RE were a single unit AND Scottish they would have wanted a 'Scottish' headress…Also as many RE had fled because of Jacobite sympathies maybe they all had a traditional bonnet in their foot locker ready for the return to bonny Scotland---This is completely hypothetical so feel free to shoot me down in flames!!!! :)

Arch,

All very romantic but do you really think it is the case? Does it fit with an C19th mindset? The Picquets were not really the equivalents of flank companies as I understand it but merely drafts from the parent unit.

Musketier thanks for the link to Patrice Menguy's website. The comment re: the grenadiers is highly suggestive given the speculation is that the grenadiers may have worn kilts of one kind or another.

Thomas--you mustn't forget the romantic aspect of the '45 although obviously a lost cause from the beginning some Clan Cheiftains were swayed by the enduring idea of the Stuarts etc…Didn't Bonnie Prince Charlie reply when told to go home "But I am already home…"
Although nationalism didn't really exist in the C18th I'm sure somebody who was born and bred in a strong culture and had been away for a few years would develop a romanticised, rose tinted idea of 'home'…
Also as an aside the bonnets were knitted wool so very very cheap and easy to make--A decent knitter could probably do 2-3 a day easily!!

TM, grenadiers in kilt would seem to be confirmed by the entry for 1758, which roughly translates as "The Grenadier company is dressed in the manner of Scottish Highlanders".

- Hence my interest in a figure which would combine French-style (i.e. unlaced), albeit short jackets with kilts and, presumably, bonnets: While some Jacobite Highlander figures may fit that description, their lack of uniformity and drill pose precludes their use. For the moment I'm making do with Front Rank's Government Highlanders, but a dedicated figure would be best of course.

my opinion is that Reid although an authority on various Jacobite subjects by passes some exploration detail in his research in grey areas, I am also into the 45 and to be honest my plan was to convert some RE with highland bonnet but on the whole they were a French Regular line regiment therefore I have opted for using normal French Line for them, all my collection are Front Rank

try this link

link

Not wanting to dive into the uniform debate on Royal Ecossois (sic); the point is they were one very small battalion during the '45. Eureka mightn't want to spend the effort on them. Then on the other hand Tartan Trash sells like hotcakes! Look at all those tartan painted bisuit tins!

Arquebusier D'Grassin however were 1500 strong and had mounted companies as well. I have a request in for mounted types with Eureka. Sign up for some of those, why don't you?

In fact, if you are into Jacobite Rising what-if scenarios, there was a company on the Elisabeth enroute to Scotland; referred to as the Compagnie Maurepas or alternativley the Grassins de Mer. Reportedly red and blue uniforms. Perhaps they actually were from the Arquebusier D'Grassin?
So, what if they had actually made landfall with the Prince?

the regiment Royale Ecossois was a regular 1 battalion line regiment of the French army and as such wore a uniform of French cut with "Scottish" cuffs, up to there most modern writers are on the same track , but as most modern writers base their research on the person who wrote before, with no source research. At the Chateau de Vinncennes there are several folders containig a vast amount of period information and it is accessible although the procedure is rather longwinded but apparently Mr Reid among others have avoided this task and the result is a misconception of the regimental uniform before it gets to scotland. Now a few facts, when Patrice Menguy, Christopher Coquet, JF Blanc and I put together a large re enactement unit in the 90's we carried out an in depth research on the unit here are a couple of details, the coats and waistcoats had stitched buttonholes, that means that the buttonholes simply had stitching in white thread around the border, silver for officers, not as is usually shoxn, the French guards lace, bad translation a while back and no real research, their culottes were RED until about 1750 when cut backs in spending and reductions in effectives took over. Probable apperence in Scotland, French uniform with the coat turned back, some probably replacing tricorn with bonnet over the monthswhite cockade compling with the Princes directives and French custom of adopting cockades when fighting under non-French high command, possibly the addition of a plaid over their shoulder for identification purposes again in compliance with the prince's wishes that all should be identified with some form of highland dress. These troops were wearing regimental dress on a limited overseas expedition with view to return to the continent after, it is highly unlikely that they chopped up their regimentals in a such short period of time if it were the case there would have been notes in the regimental records of the problem of re equiping the returning troops. Troops in highland dressprobably refers to the elusive 2nd battalion raised in Scotland and the grenadiers in kilts is probably from the same origin. Some returning troops were noted in period documents to be wearing kilts when they disembarked in France, but that is all. If they had contiued to wear gealic dress, the French cartoonist's would have had a field day as in 1815. If anyone would like more info just mail me at jacdaw@free.fr. On the subject of De Grassins, the French definition of Light Troops was fairly simple, being light meant that they did not have baggage permitting them to move quicker but the vast majority whilst retainig a larger freedom for skirmishing and recon, most of them tended to fight in the line, in particular De Grassins and their privilege of having colours and drummers, and not hornists, see their period orbat at Vincennes, confirms this quite clearly. Sorry to have droned on so, but these are subjects I have been studing for some years and it upsets me when I see good people, both sculpters and painters devoting so much time, energy and enthusiasm into projects and being misled by authors who have not gone into the subject and selling hearsay.
David Wilson
Willie Figures France

Cheers David very good post…So having a mix of bonnets and tricorns is ok??

David,

Excellent post and timely corrective based on primary research. Thank you very much for posting that, I found your post very informative.

whilst on the subject of light troops the Traité de la petite guerre ou traité du service des troupes en campagne, by M. de Grandmaison is a must, explaining all of the duties of light troops, tactics & dress, together with a critism of their dress and the enormous losses in these corps in particular to sickness. Also one should note that line regiments frequently participated in that which they called the "petite guerre". and a little precision, only the larger corps were capable taking the line, Fischers for instance would have been incapable of doing so.
David Wilson

Thank you for the informative post David. It is much appreciated.

well David your post is very helpful , I have a 75mm Clydecast miniature of a Royal Eccossais and I was never sure if it was accurate..according to you it is quite close to being accurate..