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"New Mongoose WW2 Rules" Topic


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Achtung Minen06 Apr 2008 7:07 a.m. PST

I just got back from this year's Havoc convention in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, where I got a chance to play (among other games) Mongoose's new WW2 rule set. This was probably the best game I played at the convention this year (although I have to admit, some of the more promising games were simply spoiled by grumpy players). I'm guessing not many people have got a chance to play it yet, so I'll give a quick run through…

This seems to be Mongoose's attempt to break into the Flames of War market. The game is the same scope (in a three vs three game, each player had his own company), scale (15mm) and basic ideology (easy, tournament-oriented rules with a point value system). Our GM, of course, ran the game as a scenario and it worked perfectly for that. Unlike Flames of War, the models were all individually based. One would think this would be tough for a 15mm game, but the rules made it quite easy.

The actual game mechanics were also different, of course. It almost played like a beer and pretzel game, and halfway through the first turn, everyone knew exactly what they were doing (the GM only had to look up one thing in the rules the entire time – how tough buildings were, more on that later). The turn system was "I go, you go" and the models were "what you see is what you get" (so each soldier carried a different weapon). When shooting, you rolled a d6 for each rifleman in a squad and subtracted any cover modifiers (-1 for light cover, -2 for heavy cover – these didn't stack with each other). For each die, if you make the target's "Target" number (say 4+), you score a hit and the target must make a save (say 6+ for infantry) on 1d6. Failure means the model is out of the game (dead, fleeing etc). Then you count up how many dice you rolled against the unit (dropping all natural "1's" first), and if this matches or exceeds the number of models in the target squad, they are Suppressed. If it is double or more, they are double suppressed. Some weapons roll multiple dice (like the light MG42) and have rules like double suppression (count the rolled dice twice for suppression). This worked very well, and meant you could do cool things like hose a half-track with machine gun fire to suppress it, even though your fire didn't have a great chance of knocking out the vehicle.

Vehicles worked much the same, except they all had 2 hit points (the Panther G's in the game had 3) and much better saves (3+ for the Panther's, for instance) and higher target numbers (8+ for the Shermans). Vehicles often also used a d10 to shoot, instead of a d6, usually with some bonus modifiers (Panther's gun was 1d10+4).

One of the best features in the shooting rules was that, in addition to the "Target" number, every unit had a greater "Kill" number (say 4+ and 6+ for infantry). If the attack roll beat the Kill number, the target was automatically destroyed with no save. This was a lot of fun with tanks, which normally could take several hits and keep going, but one really good hit would automatically smoke the tank (this is the only way four of our Panthers were destroyed, thanks to Sherman Fireflies). Also, vehicles had lower target and kill numbers to the side and rear (of course).

During your turn, each tank or squad had two actions; either move twice, shoot twice, move and shoot or shoot and move. Movement was abstracted (tanks didn't have to spend movement turning and twisting, they just moved 8" away). It was simple and reminded me of Stargrunt. It also allowed you to "shoot and scoot" and do any other devious tactics you could think of. Suppressed units had to spend their first action unsuppressing (and thus only got one action). Double suppressed units had to spend both actions unsuppressing.

There was a neat reaction mechanic that we didn't make much use of. Whenever an enemy moves within 10" of your infantry (or whenever your infantry get shot at), that infantry squad gets a single reaction (move, shoot etc) for the turn. The other team found it much easier to shell the buildings with our defending infantry, which would have allowed our infantry to duck out the back door, but my team was completely against the idea of "running away". Result after several turns of fire; one levelled row of buildings and one dead infantry platoon! The reaction mechanic would have definitely shined in urban infantry battles, where shooting at infantry might cause them to duck back, and moving in front of machineguns would just leave you suppressed in the middle of a street (and without that vital -2 modifier for cover). Since you could break up squads into smaller groups (thanks to individual basing), this reaction rule promised for some very interesting infantry firefights.

There was also some pretty simple rules for artillery (two actions from the forward observer to call it in, placing a marker on the table for all to see and avoid, next turn an artillery strike is scattered 1d6" from the marker and has a 6" circumference of doom). We found artillery more often suppressed than killed outright (unless the targets were in the open), which seemed pretty fair.

The rulebook itself was mostly army lists, and covered a great deal of combatants from 1944 to 1945. Equipment seemed to be well represented, from what I saw in the game.

If anything, my one criticism would be that anti-tank guns are far too vulnerable. I'm almost thinking the GM didn't have these rules quite right, because field guns were just as vulnerable as infantry (the gun itself was so easily destroyed). We pretty much lost every field gun that was shot at. One cool point, however, was that unmanned field guns could be re-crewed by any nearby infantry.

All in all, very good game. Simple, easy and fast, I am beginning to like these beer and pretzel type games much more than the finicky super-numerate rulesets. There seemed to be little to no modifiers to remember (anyone who knows me will know that is a big plus in my book) and the lack of serious movement restrictions meant that you could have a lot of fun rolling your Panther's down narrow city streets and between hedgerows (in games like Battlefront WW2, I dread the movement phase due to the facing issues). It really reminded me of the game ethic set down by games like Stargrunt. While I don't think it will knock out any of the competition, I still would rather play this new game more than any of the competition, so that's saying something.

Elianto06 Apr 2008 7:21 a.m. PST

Thanks for the preview/review. Seems an interesting new ruleset easy and complete. Should be this month if I'm not wrong.


Elianto
mondialterei.wordpress.com

Acharnement06 Apr 2008 7:25 a.m. PST

Thanks very much for posting the detailed overview. This sounds very similar to their Battlefield Evolution and Starship Troopers rules which are good stuff. Does this new rules set for WW2 have a name yet?

Schogun06 Apr 2008 7:51 a.m. PST

Battlefield Evolution: World at War. May release.

Mousy Tung06 Apr 2008 7:52 a.m. PST

Interesting. All my 15mm WWII figures are individually based for Disposable Heroes and so I can place them on movement bases for other games.

Major Mishap06 Apr 2008 9:52 a.m. PST

I'm eagerly awaiting its release, I've been playing Battlefield Evo and the WW2 version is basically the same but with modifications from various input. The Reaction system is a fantastic mechanism and makes for a lot of tactical options and allows interuption by your opponant, so everybody is doing something in both sides turns. For example you can't just move around a corner and shoot at the enemy because first you would move and then the enemy possibly react and shoot (as if on overwatch) or scoot away – great stuff.

Hacksaw06 Apr 2008 1:33 p.m. PST

It will work well for 15s, 20's, and 28's, so you can use what you already have, figures-wise.

Sgt Scream08 Apr 2008 3:57 a.m. PST

Just wait for the modern combat rules of the same system. coming up in July.

Thanks for this very impressive description of the game.

In recent days most people weren't getting into BF:EVO because they wouldn't like the miniatures MGP sold.
However with the new release and your free choice of scale and producer of your forces, people finally might get the idea of buying this really easy and fast game.

It is worth it. I am 'into' the game since its very first release. Who hasn't should try!

soulman13 Apr 2008 12:42 p.m. PST

Copys will be at salute, ans should be £15.00 GBP for 160 pages…

They seem to have leaned from the errors of the Evo modern system last year, and added more detail and rules, and from what i have read, looks great..

For me i can use my 28mm bolt action figs for a infantry game, but then go to cheaper 20mm, so i can add tanks gor bigger battles…

If you check out the new oneline S & P mag, you see some early stuff for the Modern combat rules in june /july, thoses look great..

I was going to get into FOW, but looking at the rules, i know i would be reading and reading all the extra rules when you should be playing, with evo, you just get stuck in..

Only 1 week and they will be out…
see you on the battlefield

daggers21 Apr 2008 3:21 a.m. PST

thanks for posting this as I've been wondering about getting them

soulman21 Apr 2008 8:43 a.m. PST

I got the rules, and must say i like them alot, move over flames of war…

Sorted for 20mm/28mm figs..

sirlarkins Fezian23 Apr 2008 10:30 a.m. PST

They're actually pushing 20mm as their scale of choice, which is a really good idea and fits in really well with the beer & pretzels approach (load up on plastic kits for cheap!).

There are a few preview articles (along with some atrociously painted Germans--oh well, can't get everything right, I guess) in the current S&P.

link

I'm definitely thinking of checking this one out, especially after reading about how well the rules work in urban combat (my fav).

SeattleGamer Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2008 11:59 a.m. PST

I just can't get excited about a set of rules that cover only a small portion of the war. And of course, it's late war at that.

Assuming the rules survive for a couple of years, and additional forces are added to the game, perhaps once the early war is available, I'll be interested.

But for now? There are just too many rule sets that allow a person to game the entire war for me to even consider this set. And yes, I could adapt the TOE info I have and make up my own lists, but why? Other rules have already done this and hopefully, playtested those stats.

The GM26 Apr 2008 7:30 p.m. PST

I'm with you SeattleGamer. It is great to have plenty of games, but that does make it hard for new rules to break in.

Don.

Achtung Minen27 Apr 2008 7:09 a.m. PST

I feel similarly, but like I said; if someone were running this game, I would definitely sit down and play. It's so much lighter and less finicky than other games (Battlefront WWII), has tank rules that are more believable than other games (I Ain't Been Shot Mum) and it's just plain better than similar beer & pretzel games (Flames of War)… all in my own individual opinion, of course. It really reminded me of Stargrunt; a game I love but not a game that I have any time to purchase and run for myself.

Jedispice28 Apr 2008 1:10 a.m. PST

Thanks for the rundown. Even though I'm a lardie fanboy I'm always interested in new rules. Anyone know if it has been released yet, and have a link to an online dealer?

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP04 May 2008 7:45 a.m. PST

Just back from HMGS-South convention in Orlando, RECON, and picked up a set. The dealer carrying them sold out in record time! So definitely released, definitely in the US and apparently plenty of word of mouth on them.

DaiKonjo04 May 2008 8:49 a.m. PST

Review on wargamesjournal.com
Agis has his 'Author's Cut' – the rules which didn't make the final cut (due to increasing the complexity seems to be the reason) on his site (see news feature on TMP).

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP05 May 2008 7:25 a.m. PST

Finally got a chance to at least thumb through my copy. Rules look very promising. However I wish they had given some examples of play, perhaps running through the first few turns of the game. We have a lot of "eye candy" with nothing on a page except say 3 photos with captions (and yes the pictures could be better quality). The space could much better have been used for examples of play in my opinion.

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