"Aufklarungswagen Neu - der Aufklärungs-Stelzenpanzer " Topic

Aufklärungs-Stelzenpanzer
The evil mad genius Doktor Umlaut and his beutiful, but stern, assistant, Fraulien Blücher, are seen here during the preparations for the Stelzenpanzer's field trials on the Ostfront Proving Grounds in the spring of 1944.

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"The Stelzenpanzer proved to be a successful answer to the German's need for a lightly armored scout. The design which mixed existing technology with new wondertech, was years ahead of it's time and was essential in the rebuffing of the Martian incursion of '48." Introduction, pg2, Osprey Publishing New Vanuard 114, German Armoured Reconnaissance Legged Vehicles.

Enjoy
Amalric

WIP Shots and info

This pair came about when I picked up the 222 cheap on Ebay. I then stuck it on the shelf with some parts I had scrounged for a walker. As I looked at the walker parts, they just didnt look very German to me. Then the the lightbulb went off, use the 222 turret which looks very German to me. But being the stingy tightwad I am, I didnt want to lose the 222 kit entirely, not even to use as a wreck. What to do? Share the turret and paint so it matches both.

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Turret on the 222. This is a great 222 kit, I really liked how the wheels were done. Unfortunately the barrels were resin & I am very hard on such things, so swapped them out for metal. The 20mm barrel looks a tad heavy too me, but at least it wont break. ;)

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Heres the turret on the walker. The body is the old GW IG walker body turned back for front and with a 5/8" hole drilled into it for the turret's bottom to sit in. I've added a drivers armored vision slit and angled the bow with greeenstuff. It still needs some stowage added I think. Plastic legs are from the current GW walker.

Lovely painting, nice model….but why does this appear on a WWII board?…Can't you put in the fantasy boards where it belongs?

If he did the Fantasy guys would be asking why is this on a Fantasy board…….Its Weird War 2 so SF and WW2, you could always ask Bill for a new board.

"Wierd War II"….call it you like…if looks like sci-fi/fantasy,smells like sci-fi/fantasy, then it is sci-fi/fantasy… – its not WWII

What makes it fantasy? I agree its not WW2, but anybody doing Weird World War II (basically WW2 with zombies, super heroes, whatever) also uses WW2 stuff…….it doesn't really have any connection to fantasy at all.

Looks great Amalric.

Oh yeah forgot to say, very nicely done Amalric.

"basically WW2 with zombies, super heroes, whatever) also uses WW2 stuff…….it doesn't really have any connection to fantasy at all.."

Right…..please tell me you are being ironic here, aren't you? ;o)

There you are another category for the HMGS cons, we need more space!

Does it really ing matter where it might fit in best, as long as we get to see it thats all that matters.

I for one would like to go to a One Board To Rule Them All and in the Darkness Bind Them: Let's have two boards: "Miniatures Stuff" and "Not Miniatures Stuff." Then there need never be another debate about what constitutes Fantasy.

Mark "Extra Crispy" Severin
Owner, Scale Creep Miniatures
scalecreep.com

Check out the new rules directory at
DeepFriedHappyMice.com

But I like the obituaries….

Christot, instead of being a sniping, negative little , why no try being a positive influence on the fora?

Who knows, it might catch on around here?

I don't get why he thinks alternative WW2/Weird World War 2 should be on the Fantasy boards. I think Pulp and Sci-fi covers it pretty well, crossposting to WW2 makes sense since the majority of stuff used will be WW2.

Almaric you might want to take a look at the AT-43 walkers (if you haven't already), the Red Blok especially make good Alternative WW2 walkers.

I'm not sniping…its a good model, its great, there are also great pics on here of ancients, of napoleonics, of allsorts that I like to look at, I don't want them all turning up here either…when I go to the relevant boards I can look at them ….When I come here i want to look at stuff from WWII…This isn't WWII. Its Sci-fi..put it on the sci-fi boards, where folk who are into sci-fi (and who may be missing out on it because its here)can enjoy it, and where folk who are not into sci-fi don't have to bother with it.

Not really a problem since its already crossposted to the Sci-fi and pulp boards as well, I understand your point but since there is no specific board for this stuff its going to go on connected boards, which include the Sci-fi, Pulp and WW2 boards.

There have been quite a few Alt' WW2 topics on the WW2 boards already with out any problems, strictly speaking its not really Sci-fi either, well maybe retro sci-fi.

I'm not entirely sure we need a new board, I think we've got plenty. If not too many.

There is no problem, if it was posted on a purely Sci fi board, I doubt it would be appreciated, you probably need some interest in the second World war to appreciate this model, and so here it is. I'm a WW2 wargamer, I don't wargame alt-ww2 but I apreciate the model.

I'm a ww2 wagamer, but I'm not all that enthused by the Eastern Front, you won't see me venting my displeasure about "having to wade through all these eastern front posts"!

sir, you chose to engage this thread, that was a choice you made, you other option was to turn away.

This is not "the tip of the iceberg (tm)", I don't think the ww2 boards are going to be somehow overrun by "fantasy or sci fi" posts, and that somehow by allowing this post to exist were it is TMP's standards are slipping. There is overlap in theme of this post with this forum, it would be the same if, say, someone posted a war in manchuria post or a spanish civil war post on the ww2 board, strictly speaking it should be in the inter war period, but it would not upset me in the slightest! Partially because i know that these conflicts are directly related to the second world war, and some even suggest they're part of it. The same applies for alt-ww2.

Gents, Thanks for all the nice comments.

WOW, I start a day job where I don't have internet access and look at all the fuss I miss.

Christot, I posted this here in WW2 for reasons that have been nicely stated by others. But if pure historical WW2 is your thing, take a gander at the other use I put the walker's turret to;

TMP link

Amalric

'Christot, instead of being a sniping, negative little , why no try being a positive influence on the fora?'

Mr CCollins, nice comeback, you kiss you mum with that mouth?

John

By the way, lovely stuff, post it where you like!

John

Amalric, whatever board it belongs on, it certainly belongs on a place that it can be seen; It is a neatly designed and relaised model and I would be proud to have one as part of my own forces, should I choose to play that scale and "period".

As for what Wierd War 2 and WW2 are divided by, all I can say is that perhaps WW2 players ought to look closely at Russian Anti-tank dogs, the Luftwaffe's Natter, the Japanese Stork fuel transport, and America's Operation X-Ray and then see how 'real' the war actually was. . .

By John 54, do you disagree with my sentiments?

I'll let you imagine what you wish about what I actually typed, but from memory it was fairly mild, hypersensitive types have ensured that. I'll do the same in future when confronted with petty-minded negativity.

As for the question? yes, I do for that matter. Sir, in this neck of the woods we value actions and intent over the crassness of our vocabulary. I'd rather a rough-necked bushy who's language can curdle milk by my side in a crisis than a well spoken gent whos approach to said problem is either talking his way out of it or hiding under a table.

Is that so morally abhorrent?

Yes.

Dear Almaric and others who think it's ok to place posts about ficticious vehhicles and games concerning Martians etc:

Here's the real proplem with what your doing that nobody is saying and needs to be said. I can only speak for myself BUT I don't think I'd be too offbase saying that there areothers where will agree with this. There seems now in recent years a rift that has developed in the hobby. On the one hand we have people like you who see time periods just ast grist for game scenarios and play games to play games and have a "good time".

All well and good. However there others (like me) who play the game to play the period who put historical ahead of the minaitures and the models and do this to learn and understand the period better. This does not make me superior or pure. It is however what I always understood HISTORICAL miniatures is all about. That the REAL history comes first then the minis and the games.OH when I say real history I mean the part about MILLIONS of people DYING to stop REAL evil from taking over the world ie Hitler and Fascism. The "I use WWII stuff thus I am playing WWII" comes across to some ears as "I really don't care about your dumb history"

Thus to my ears itcan get interpreted to the next level of meaning "I don't care who died and for what" I am NOT saying your are saying it. I am explaining the basis of the reaction of some of here. also bear in mind there are peole who do think those things and perhaps the reactions you got was assuming that you were of that ilk. We do not suffer fools gladly. For some of us WWII is still personal due to family involvement including lost loved ones. Also for others there is the passion for scholarship and learning. When we see pictures/post of some kit bashed modelor about a game involving the SS and Martians here with the assumption of defacto equal legitamacy of something that really existed or happened it raises hackles because it sends an unitentional signal of disrespect. What disrespect? That now this historical period that some people(inc me for both the prior cited reasons)have deep feelings about has just been trivilaized and none of the scholarship means nothing it's all just games. You might think that and your welcome too but it doesn't go with the hardcare historical gamers like me. So the whole what does it matter it's all just a game mentality is about the same as someone coming along with a can of spray paint and spraying grafitti on your beuatifully retored Victorian period house and claiming they just decorated your house but with a differeent kind of art. We take this hobby which includes the scholarship,the history PLUS the games, seriously. You might think it's dumb or whatever but that's the reality that you have ran into and why people like myself don't want sci-fi stuff on this particuliar board.

It's not a game is a game is a game on this board.
Again I'm not saying you were being intentionally disrespectful or provactive BUT that you have ran into a different group of people at a different level both in orientation (hobby as an extention of learning history) and emotional investment-("I want to understand better what my father,grandfather went through in THE War.") than perhaps what you are used to. Did you do historical stuff before or were you a warhammer kid or D&D? I'm only asking to understand better where you are coming from not to pass judgement. If you started in historical gaming then why are you so shocked? So all this being said I hope you might understand a little better what all the yelling is about. I'm sorry that some were a little rude and should made the point in a nicer way like I'm trying to. So please understand that there are a lot of us (you may fill any prefered perjoriitive you like at this time)who take our shosen time periods VERY seriously and have really put our hearts and souls into it as way of memoralizing that time period and learning more. I hope that if you have something that fits into the parameters of the discussion on this board ie history based WWII land combat and it's historical background that you will post it here soon. Yes the armored car in the later posting was nice. Did you know that they could dual role infantry support and AA??

One last thing. We historical gamers have worked over a generation to build up our end of the hobby and secure a place seperate from the fantasy and scifi realms. So when OUR space either at the conventions or on a forum board is encroached on and we stand our ground that is not narrow minded,negative or petty. That is standing up for what we believe in and no we should not just roll over so someone's feeling don't get hurt! There are sci-fi and fantasy boards go there. We on this board and on the other historical boards have a different background,purpose, and set of priorities and you must understand and respect that to post here.So again please leave the farfetched or fantasy stuff where it belongs. Then come here to discuss real history,historical gaming or better yet ask and learn! We will be happy to help.I love teaching and if you want to learn more about WWII I'd love to answer anything you might be curious about.

Most Seriously and Sincerely Yours
Karl Strohmeyer

Hello again:
Just a quick apology fro the horrible typos on my last post. I'm in a rush and thought I caught all the goofs. Never the less I hope the sentiments are understood and appreciated. This WHOLE package (history+ gaming) means a lot to me and I don't want to see it get destroyed and diluted as a lot of us get older. I want to see it appreciated and passed down. That means Gentelmen, we got to work on our convention scenarios and do some really intense "selling" to the younger generation
Your most Humble&Obe't Servant
Karl Strohmeyer

"Dear Almaric and others who think it's ok to place posts about fictitious vehicles and games concerning Martians etc…."

An awareness of both history and politics should be a part of everything we do – but that doesn't mean you have to rub people's noses in it at every opportunity.

And just because you "play" (you still play, right?) what are supposedly "historical" games doesn't mean you are inculcating any historical awareness in your players. In fact, I don't see much about any historical game or rules set I've every played that touches on any of the politics or tragedy of the period – and they usually offer only a vague, abstracted sense of the sacrifice and heroism.

You can do as much – or more – with scifi, fantasy, pulp, and alternative histories as you can with supposedly historical ones. If you do them right.

Whoah! This thread just took a turn for the very very weird. Cue up the Theremin!

Jim- anti-martian defamation league

ps: sweet walker Almaric!

Dear Number 6:
#1 I don't understand how what I wrote rubbed anyones nose in anything. #2Yes I play as much as I can at least 2-3 times a month. #3 Your defensivness is unwarranted and misses the point of my letter. This particuliar board is an historic miniatures realated board for land combat WWII not sci-fi or alt history or pulp fiction or anything else but the empahsis is historic.

I have played Gaslight and other fantasy games but because you use a particuliar periods figures or veficles does not mean you are playing that period. You MUST either be playing an actual historic battle of that period or at the least play the troops, tactics,vehicles and weaponary of the period in the time,places and circumstances of the period.IE a scenario that states a year a location and troop type fighting as part of a real campaign. These might be called generic historical and they're ok but I prefer more specificity an actual battle and units that were really there. Hence German recon walkers with armored car gun turrets are fantasty not historic.Hence no martians no SS zombies etc Hence they are not appropriate for this baord. Oh BTW (almaric) in the Lovecraft book that has an ailen invasion occuring during WWII was by Lizards so at least keep the fantasy straight.
Also #6 I bring books photos and give a background tutorial at my games and copies of accounts of the battle to give to players so they will learn a little something.
I regrest that is not done more and I have on the TMP chastised my bretheren for not doing so we have got to do a better job at education and I grant that not enough teaching is being done and more should be. Remember I opened the letter in the next graph with "speaking for my self"

#4 I was not trying to intimidate anyone I am an advocate for those who disagree with almaric and other like your self.In so doing I was laying out the specifics for the objections in as intelligent and cogent fashion as possible and in so doing make it clear that there is an intellectual basis for the objection not from narrow minded snobbery as others have accused us historical gamers.

$5 USD as to your point regarding historical education I know of a history teacher in new Jersey who uses Gnome wars to illustrate WWI and when the students start playing he removes the gnomes and replaces them with Germans and French troops. guess what? the kids like it better once it's more reality based and they undertand what drove the war and whay it was terrible and they played the game to a conclusion. I am merely saying that you are correct and that if waht you or others do using alternative geners to teach real history that is fantastic and I applaud you! I am not saying it can't be done. i am saying also that a lot of us got into the hobby as a way of learining history and out of a love of history. I notice that when this subject is brought up ie history as part of the love ofhistorical gaming fantasy/sci-fi players get very testy as if being attacked. I think you all are felling guilty and are projecting. But again not my problem or concern.

Also not the point. This is a historical gaming board thus it is not for scifi and fantasy related discussions. The use of WWII vehicles or figures in games/scenarios that have nothing to do in FACT (that's the key word fact not fiction) with the actual Second World War or it's antecedent conflicts Ie Spanish Civil War,Russo-Fin War,Sino-Japanese war etc do not make those games/scenarios WWII or WWII realted they are still FICTION. If you want to play alternative history and what ifs that's stretching itbut if it is the troops and weapons in the actual historical context (another key element missing in this dialouge)it's allowed primarily to see how much different history would have changed. Again the driving force in all of this is Hitory the love and understanding of it. To feel and to be interestred in this dierection does not assume superiority(I said that in my 1st letter. did you read it all the way through?) It merely lays what the ground rules are and the common ground of those of use who are so inclined. If you feel threatened that's your problem I didn't thraten anyone I just stated whay there is an objection to sci-fi and fatasy gamers pretty much demeanding equalcredulty of their level of the hobby to historical gaming. Fantasy is Fantasy History is History and I don't care how historical the paint job is on your laser cannon King Tiger or whatever the twain will not or cannot meet. Please don't give the "the Germans were working on that" crap!

While I'm at this. Let's talk about this because it seems a lot of you feed off this idea that somehow the Germans could of come up with all these incredible weapons that would of turned the war around for them. Maybe this might start a discussion about some real history. Ok? and if youare feeling any pressure on your nose right now I don't care! You best run.

They were daydreaming!! The Nazis ended up the war assembling Fw 190's in the woods and beneath autobahn underpasses because they had no where left and didn't have enough gas left to run a tank battalion or a squadron of conventional fighters let alone build any of these wunderwaffen that a lot of you children are obsessed with!
I grant they had great (and in some cases out right fantasies) ideas and plans for technology that the US,the Brits, and the Soviets adopted. But they did not have the means to execute them

Oh there is another element that goes unnoticed. The production of these incredible weapons on the drawing boards had ground to a halt. Why? Because the slave labor force that the production of these wunder waffen depended on had been liberated!! Most of you alt history fantasy guys choose to ignore the fact that the German war machine was run on slave labor from Aushwitz Buchenwald and other "wonderful" places like Treisenstadt,Nordhausen and Mittle-Brau Dora (where the V-2 was built) where people were literally worked to death and the few survivors came out looking like walking skeletons! There for to assume that these fantastic weapons were being magically(in light of how battered the German industrial capacity was in 1945) produced shows an inceredible amount of ingnorance bordering on an apathy for human suffering.Who else was going to build them? Black Forest elves? Please no jokes this NOT funny!! A lot of younger gamers have this problem ie the "I really don't care man I'm just playing a game" syndrome which shows a sorry need to learn history. The learning is needed because if you are playing the period you should the why along with the how.

So whenever you see historical film of an ME-262 remind yourself that at least 12 people died to make that one airplane(based on labor camp statistics)

That's the diffence between historical gaming and scifi/puilp fiction our games are driven by the facts as they really were. Therefore we remember and we learn. but wee need to do a better job of passing the knowlege down and focusing more attention to a little teaching with the game.I'm not saying that historical gamers are perfect but at least we try. I'm sorry for one thing. that we haven't tried hard enough. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this disscusion because it wouldn't be neccessary. I don't want anyone's nose in anything i want people to learn and understand the truth and realize that some of us take this (History)very seriously and it's not something to be messed around with. It's more than just a game

Most Sincerley,
Karl Strohmeyer

WW2 gaming is not historical, its fictional gaming using WW2 as a frame work for playing with toy soldiers.

Sorry to point this out, but all wargaming is fiction not fact, the moment you play a game unless your exactly mirroring what really happened (which is impossible anyway) in real life there is no fact involved.

Also the only people who seem to be testy about this are the 'historical gamers', since the anger is all one way.

I suggest you campaign for a new board or don't open Alternative WW2/Weird War II topics (most are clearly marked) if you have a problem with the genre. I expect like most others i'll simply roll my eyes and ignore this strange belief that you are some how honouring those that died in WW2 by playing with toy soldiers.

Also its seems most WW2 gamers are playing Hollywood WW2 rather than historical WW2.

Oh and no one is complaining about the paint ball panzer. TMP link

What a bunch of whiners, where was it said in the first or any post that the Germans were wonderful nice people and used "Black Forest Elves" to make anything.

Amalric posted some pictures of items he had spent time and effort in producing, his explanation of the items used and the reasons why explain a far better understanding of History than some of the explanations posted after.

Overlord44, in your games that are so historically accurate are all of the moves exactly as carried out historically, are the paint jobs the same, the table? If not your games are only based on history and not strictly accurate either.

The point that you have missed completely is that our Grandfathers fought and died in WW2 to fight Tyranny and allow us all to have the freedoms to do as we want and not be dictated to by anyone, so if someone wants to play a game with "Walkers" then you owe it to all of those who died to let them, or are you saying that it is only you that is right and everyone else is totally wrong because they disagree with your opinions.

Wow. God save us if ANYONE's youth rely on toy soldiers to inform their perception of history.

I'm a historical gamer, for the most part, but I play some sci-fi and pulp occasionally, too. I can tell you this: I've played sci-fi and fantasy games with people whose depth of historical knowledge was breathtaking – I'm thinking here of the several history professors in my old group, including one from the Air Force Academy, and the guy that founded the Learning Channel. I've played historical games where the depth of knowledge of the very period being played barely plumbed the odd John Wayne movie or Sgt. Rock comic.

Gamers make the game, not the genre, in my humble opinion, and fractious and elitest behavior only makes a social hobby less sociable. Just my two cents, of course.

Wait a minute.

I like the taste of Colgate toothpaste.

Anyone remember those commercials from the 70s? The grade 4 class, for some reason, is being visited by a toothpaste rep who is explaining to them how great Colgate toothpaste is, and one kid stands up with a toothy white grin holding the toothpaste tube and says "I like the taste!". Giggles from the class and a horrified "JOHNNY!" from the teacher who is mortified one of her students interrupted a sales rep's pitch.

Did that make sense?

Don't make me start the Johnny Cochrane Wookies are from Endor – that does not make sense diatribe, or you'll regret it.
--
Tim

A fabulous model of a very innovative machine. It matches exactly the photos my Dad took when they overran the labs.
…hope I didn't step on any toes there…

All nonsense aside, the basing and terrain really makes it a special build. I envy your craftsmanship. Please post more photos of anything else you come up with as it does inspire.
I was of the 'just plunk it on the table school' and did't realize that by basing vehicles,they could superceed the attention to the figures.
…please ignore any mis-spellings as English is my primary language- Beefheart out….

I also find it slightly annoying for a guy new to TMP (Overlord44) to be informing the rest of us what we are allowed to post.

Sorry but for me wargaming is not about learning history, it's about having fun, I have a interest in Sci-fi, post apocalypse, fantasy, WW2 (primarily Alternative WW2 scenarios), pulp, ancients, dark ages etc……I will pretty much game any genre and if especially interested i'll research the era/genre. I've no interest in being lectured about what somebody think wargaming should be about.

Oh and once again, thanks to Amalric for posting a very good model, its feeding my interest in WWW2/Alt WW2 games.

I've been interested for a while but haven't taken the plunge buying stuff (although i've a pile of warzone plastics that might good brits and germans, sitting in boxes at the moment).

Praetor XII
I also find it slightly annoying for a guy new to TMP (Overlord44) to be informing the rest of us what we are allowed to post.

yeah
I dont think he has been around long enought to notice this is a very laid back crowd, except for CA :-)

Overlord 44, relax, even if you wont be playing any weird war stuff you can still make comments on how well painted something is or a good conversion, most of the WW folks tend to base their stuff very realistically before the alternate universe stuff takes over,
ie, if I ever play any of these games, (which I better or Bailey will harrass me for years) I will start with a very mundane realistic unit nothing special, they could all be extras in a movie they are so generic, granted once they get finished with dealing with zombies they are gonna be complete nutcases ;-)
Dave

"I've no interest in being lectured about what somebody think wargaming should be about."

But no problem at all telling all WW2 gamers that what they are doing is not historical?

What I said.

"WW2 gaming is not historical, its fictional gaming using WW2 as a frame work for playing with toy soldiers.

Sorry to point this out, but all wargaming is fiction not fact, the moment you play a game unless your exactly mirroring what really happened (which is impossible anyway) in real life, there is no fact involved."

Do I have a problem saying that, not at all, feel free to disagree.

Nice piece of kit Almaric. I for one applaude more 1946 stuff, walkers, jets, anything.

And Overlord…"we got to work on our convention scenarios and do some really intense "selling" to the younger generation". If this is your way of selling I pity the kids near you.

Johan

My point was all wargaming is fictional, I feel the same way about all periods of historical gaming. All credit to those who wish to make there games as historically accurate as possible.

Guys:
I am NOT condeming sci-fi or fantasy gaming or gamers
I never said anything to that effect. My best friend is a fantasy scifi gamer and I do play these games occaisonally.
I am NOT rendering Judgement about the knowlege of history of fantasy/sci-fi gamers. Again where did I say that? I did say that some younger guys do have a lack of knowlege about history-which is the fault of the public school system AND that we historic gamers have to step up more to try to do more education as part of our games. I was thinking primarily at the conventions and I'm sorry I didn't say that. Oh I've been on and off this site for about 5 years just never wrote much till this April. I lost my password and had to do redo my memebership. The main thing is we are having a HUGE communications problem here and if I'm not making myself clear I'm sorry.

I AM saying that this is a historic WWII board and the sci-fi stuff inc WWII vehicles tricked up to look like walkers or whatever don't belong here and that's my only main point along with trying (I thought nicely) explain why some WWII gamers inc myself object to that kind of stuff being posted here. Please go back to my 1st letter and read it again carefully. For me to say that is not angry, elitist or antisocial it's a simple statement of fact. We have seperate boards for seperate areas of interest and I just standing up for what I believe ie "this is our side of the street you go play on yours." You are not ENTITLED to post what ever you want wherever you want. You must respect the feelings and sensibnlities of others. In effect this is our house and and you are trespassing! In this case fantasy sci-fi stuff on a historic oreinted board is disrespectful and does not belong here.It belongs on the sci-fi fantasy board. If they don't appreciate it then argue your case to them and win in the correct arena of ideas instead of foisting it upon historic gamers and demanding that we accept it or we're a bunch of nasty close minded elitists etc. Go to the correct board and fight the good fight to have what you like respected there. It doesn't belong here because it's NOT historic. Likewise I would (out of respect) only post anything relevent to a patculiar board and nothing else. If I went to the fantasy board and started to post historic stuff there (I never would)I would be trespassing and disrespectful. It goes both ways.

And excuse me Aargle freedom is a 2 way street not total anarchy I have as much freedom to object as you have to express it goes both ways.Thus freedom must balanced by civility and respect it is not unbridled kaos or mob rule. I never tried EVER to dictate what anyone can or cannot play. I am just saying this board (WWII historic land combat)is for historic gamers it's our space and we want our space respected the same as fantasy or sci-fi gamers would want their space respected. Is this a difficult concept? Also Mr Aargle PLEASE really read what I really wrote. I did NOT say the Germans were nice people or used black forest elves. Much to the contrary I was trying to move the discussion back to a Historic context by arguing that the secret weapons of the 3rd Reich depended on SLAVE LABOR (hence Germans not very nice) and thus with the liberation of the of death and labor camps (no real difference except they in the labor camps they just killed you by literally working you to death)the secret weapons could not of been built.This was my statement about the elves:
"Therefore to assume that these fantastic weapons were being magically(in light of how battered the German industrial capacity was in 1945) produced shows an incredible amount of ingnorance bordering on an apathy for human suffering.Who else was going to build them? Black Forest elves? Please no jokes this NOT funny!! A lot of younger gamers have this problem ie the "I really don't care man I'm just playing a game" syndrome which shows a sorry need to learn history. The learning is needed because if you are playing the period you should the why along with the how. "

It was saracasm in service of making a point. Also the attitude I speak about I run into a lot hence why I am talking about trying to use the games a tool to educate. It's being done and needs to be done more. Again I am talking about us major history geeks who want to make sure that history is passed down to the next generation. I am NOT saying all war games must be mandatory teaching tools or that only historic games can be used or all games must do this. Again read my letter (carefully) and the part about the teacher in New Jersey. IMHO if you really profess care about history and the learning of it you take it upon yourself should teach some it at one time or another in your life.I try myself through my games and with my nephews If any of you regardless of prefered period or genere have done this or or are doing this G-d bless you.

Let me get this other thing staightened out also. I never said that playing wargames is the main way of understanding what happened in WWII. It is/can be used as a tool for learning and yes it can impart some understanding to a degree as to what happened by pushing the historic troops and having to make descions similar to the historic ones.
I also said it was part of an over all package of apreciating history that is combined with reasearch/reading. Of course I do this for fun but also for me historical research is fun too so it all goes together. What is not being heard by some of you is that there some of us for whom the games are are part of an over all intrest in history.

I do not think that if you study history but play other kinds of games that you are somehow inferior, I was saying that there are some of us who take this seriously and feel that bringing in sci-fi stuff onto this board is trivalizing a period that we have put (as I said) heart and soul into learning about and just want that understood and respected. What's wrong with that? I think that point was lost on some of you. I learned about WWII from my my father about his cousin killed on pelieu, my uncles who fought in it(both ETO and PTO) and my grandparents who built Helldivers. Then from other veterans who I have spoke to over the years and from the small mountain of books I have read through my life. The games are just another way of understanding and having some fun as part of it.

I NEVER said that all historic WWII games are pure as the wind driven snow or superior. I have been in some convention WWII games that were awful! I agree it's the gamers and the GM that determine the quality of the game. But that's not the point the point is that this is a historic oriented board and for all the reasons I laid out in my prior letters especially the 1st (again reread it I really think the reponses here are based on partial reading of what I said) scifi stuff does not belong here. AND that just the use of WWII figures and vehicles does not really make it WWII as in a historic WWII game. At that point it's all just props.

To answer Praetor XII My table is modeled as close as I can from historic maps, the starting positions are the same as are the actual units and the units are set up on their TO&E as they were at thet time including previous losses.
Where did this "If the results not an exact copy of what really happened it's not historic" nonsense come from? I never and as far as I know no historic gamer or GM that I know ever said or wrote that. I can tell you that many historic games do produce a historic result thus are accurate in that regard.

I really think there has become a gross distortion of what historic gaming is or is not. This is from what I know are the components to a historic wargame #1)You do a LOT of research 1st and set up the units based on what was really there at the actual battle at that time. #2)You set up the table as close and as accurate to the actual battle/operation as you can. #3)You brief the players on the background and what happened then #4) tell the players what their missions are again based on what the units were supposed to have done in the real battle and start playing.

The point is NOT to recreate the same outcome. It's to see what if you can overcome the challenges and problems in the scenario under the same conditions and with units copied accurately while trying to do better than historically. From a historical interest standpoint it is hoped that the players will get some feel what the battle was like and some appreciation for what really happened. Of course if the GM takes a little time to copy some background material and hand it out that helps. That what it was like when I got started in the hobby 22 years ago.

Lastly,what is it with you fantasy/sci-fi guys? Whenever a historic gamer objects to this space being diluted, to inappropriate postings or asserts himself in the least way. There is this HUGE reaction as if somehow youa think it has been declared that some historic gaming police is going to swoop down on you and snatch up all your warhammer or pulp 45 games! A lot of you all get way too defensive and I think it because a nerve is getting hit here inadvertently somehow.I never said or have ever heard historic gamers say that what you like to play is inferior or should not be played. We just say that it's not historic and postings about thse types of games don't belong on a historic board period. Then some of you are shocked that somebody actually speaks up and tells the truth. Oh I love the "it's all fantasy so everything goes" arguement that means "there is no real historic gaming and the years of reasearch and hard work you old farts have done is meaningless." What that really means is that historical gamers and gaming intimidates who ever subscibes to that idea and they want invalidate it so won't scare then anymore! From the posts I'm reading some of you got a BIG chip on your shoulders and have got to calm down. Some of you have nearly veered into conspiracy theory mode! I reference the posts from the blow up about Historicon limiting fantasy games a month or so ago. What I do disagree with is the entitled attitude I run across from some sci-fi/fantasy gamers that seems to project a feeling that you can do whatever and nobody should say anything. Well you just going to have to adjust to the idea that it's not all your way or the highway. That from now on some of us will speak up AND there really is such a thing as historical vs fantasy. I respect the latter as a genere of gaming. Please respect the former including the fact that it is for some of us bigger than just the games, that starts by keeping the postings on this board appropriate. If anymore stuff like the walker used to fight martians or skull face nazi zombies shows up again I am coming down on it like a ton of bricks! Fair warning!
Thank You,
Sincerely,
Karl Strohmeyer

Hello Karl,
I have to admit, I agree with a lot of what you say, although the last missive defeated me, lifes too short!
I think people, Karls only problem is having this, admittedly smart, bit of kit, on a WWII site, whereas he, and myself, and, it appears, Christot, think it has no place here. Weird War stupid, Nazi flying saucers, zombie NKVD et al, IMHO, belong on the Sci-fi sites.

John

Dear John 54 et all:
I apologize if I knackered you out with the last post. I speak Brit! :>) I am grateful that you labored through the whole brute and appreciate the support.I will keep this mercifully brief.
You wrote:
"I think people, Karls only problem is having this, admittedly smart, bit of kit, on a WWII site, whereas he, and myself, and, it appears, Christot, think it has no place here. Weird War stupid, Nazi flying saucers, zombie NKVD et al, IMHO, belong on the Sci-fi sites."

I only wish to offer a humble Amen (Giggle! Mate if you knew me better humble would be one of the last adjetives you'd use :>) )
Yes that is my only real problem. I don't care what you play just when you come here keep it Historic WWII related land combat gaming . That is not complicated. specific boards exist for those with specific interests and we who care a lot about this period just want our boundaries respected as we respect those of other boards/sites.
Again John 54 thank you for the back up.
Talk to you all later
Karl

First thing, there is no such thing as a fantasy sci-fi gamer, fantasy and sci-fi are well established genres which occasionally cross paths, many Sci-fi gamers don't do fantasy and many fantasy gamers don't do sci-fi. The attempt to force the two genres together irrates people. It's similar to me claiming that WW2 topics should be posted on the Napoleonic boards.

Second Sci-fi gamers are a easy going lot, so we'll except Weird War Two posts with an interested look but guess what, it's not sci-fi. Zombies I would place in the Horror genre (not sci-fi, of course if the zombies are created with a virus you have a cross over to sci-fi). Superheroes, again not sci-fi (but again crossovers into sci-fi).

The belief that because its not WW2 (even if its 99% WW2 with one walker) that it should be jammed on to the sci-fi boards and banned from the WW2 says a lot about your attitude to non-historical gaming.

Recently Victorian SF got its own board and i'd support a WW2 Sci-fi style board so your delicate little eyes shouldn't have two see any more of this.

I suggest you check with Bill (the editor), to see if you have the right to 'come down on it, like a ton of bricks'.

I just realised the pulp gaming boards is in with the WW2 boards………arghhhhhhh drive out the unbelievers.

Really guys, WWW2 isn't sci-fi or fantasy, it has links to sci-fi but its not sci-fi (it has no links to fantasy), it also has links to pulp and WW2……best solution, contact bill and get the WWW2/alternative WW2 guys there own board and we'll continue to welcome crossposts from these nutty guys.

Also strangely the paint ball panzer still goes unchallenged……obviously the germans used miniature tanks firing paint balls in WW2. The things you learn over here on the WW2 boards.

Dear Praetor XII et all:
1) yep I think that's a good idea and I think those who are wit me send bill emails to t he effect that pulp ficrtion WWWWII and alt WWII should have their own board. Yes petition Bill for Statehood!! ;>)
2) Should of elaborated what coming down loke a tone of bricks means. It means I'll blow the whistle on it like a ref on a bad play and say 'whoa that doesn't belong here'. That's all. I just mean since I've taken all this time and trouble in thse emails then I got back up what i said. Sorry if the langage went a bit too far. I just mean that the wierd war stuff etc can no longer be posted here with impunity becasue I and hopefully others will cry FOUL!
So later on I will write to Bill about a seperate board.
I suggest you and the other sc-fi or whatever you are guys
do the same and you get you're own yard to play in and we won't have hse problems in future. for right now I can only say I think it's sci-fi and if the sci-fi people don't accept it then that's REALLY narrow minded! Like I said in my previous letter go over there and challenge them then win that battle that's the correct one for you to fight.
Sincerely,
Karl

PS Praetor XII:
If it makes you feel better I will unleash the ton O' Bricks on the paint ball panzer people also!! I haven't seen that yet what the blazes is it doing here!?
Karl