"Flags for 1870 Prussians" Topic

Gentlemen, as part of my current VSF project I have been painting some rather splendid Foundry and Baker Company Prussians and am at a slight loss on the correct flags for them, as I intend to utilise the said little chaps for historical games I require the correct flags. Using incorrect ones would, I fear, be somewhat akin to wargaming with unpainted figures!

Could any of you kindly let me know any makers etc of 28 mm flags for the FPW

Many thanks,

Tally Ho!

Hello Nick,
I don't think the Prussians carried their flags in the field in 1870.

If you don't mind the flags being generic (not regiment specific) then -- link

Dave,

thanks, found that one, perhaps hoping for a little variety!

Mark,

I have not researched the period a great deal yet, but seeing as the manufacturers produce standard bearers I would not want them to feel left out!

many thanks,

Tally Ho!

The manufacturers produce standard bearers, but the chap above is right, the Prussians didn't carry their banners to war in 1870. The pole was carried into battle with the banner cords attached, or in some cases the banners were rolled around the pole and secured in a black oilskin. The other German nations still carried theirs however.

Many thanks, Captain, now the debate rages do I or don't I!

Tally Ho!

Guys,

Sorry, but most of the evidence is that the Prussians did indeed carry their flags into battle in 1870-71. In fact, the vast majority of regiments did so in 1914! The pole with decorations attached is true, but relects the fact that a small minority of regiments carried flags which dated back, in some case to Frederick the Great and in others to the Napoleonic Wars. These were so decayed that little more than scraps were attached to the poles. In the 1930s a Prussian major, Ewald Fiebig, produced a volume on the flags of the German armies, which covered the 17th century to WW1. His purpose then was to use historical examples of courage to inspire the German youth, but the depth of his research makes his book one of the major sources for the 19th century, where most of his pages are concentrated. He not only describes the flags in some detail, but also devotes chapters to the flags carried in action, and those damaged while being carried. These include extensive examples from both 1866 and 1870-71.The clear conclusion from this is that the Prussians carried all their flags in 1870, with the possible exception of some fo the cavalry units. It is true the other German states also carried theirs', with some (the Saxons, for example) also leaving behind their cavalry standards. Nick, as I game in 10mm I am afraid I am not really in a very good position to guide you on 28mm flag availability, but the ones on WARFLAG, although reflecting a book by Terence Wise and Rossignoli, are not exactly accurate, particularly in the shape of the cross (for plate 1) or the grenades (for plate 2). The grenades of the pattern shown were on all the Line Infantry flags of the 19th century pattern, the ones on the 19th century flags carried by the Guard Grenadiers were much bigger and more elaborate. But the Guard Grenadiers caries a number of older flags as well from the Grenadier Battalions of the later Napoleonic Wars. Sorry to bang on! Good luck

Andrew (Steinmetz)

Andrew,

many thanks, I may have to go down the route of using some Napoleonic flags then, although I believe that as they develope their 28mm FP range Helion and Co will be producing flags,

Tally Ho!

Nick,

As an interim solution, if you go into NAPFLAGS on the WARFLAG site, and then Prussia, you will see listed Flags pre and post 1806. In the post 1806 section, Grenadier regiments, the flag for 2nd East Prussian grenadier regiment, is a good approximation to a lot of the Prussian flags in use in the FPW. The guard post 1806 flags also give a reasonably accurate picture of the later guard flags.

Andrew

NIck, I am going with the WARFLAG ones. I will show you an example of how they print when I see you on the 5th april.

Roger that, I will give them a go, not very colourful though,

Tally Ho!

I contributed a notice to this topic a while ago, and will repeat basically what I said. Prussian units (and those of all other German states) carried their flags in the field in 1870/71. The reason that the bare poles were carried by some units is that there was nothing left of the silk. King Friedrich Wilhelm IV and his brother King Wilhelm I had decreed that the silk of flags was not to be replaced, and it was not until the 1890s that Emperor Wilhelm II introduced new patterns. In general, the older regiments would have the poles, the newer ones with some or part of the silk. Each battalion of an infantry regiment possessed a colour, each regiment of cavalry a standard.

1848 1871 thanks for that, can you point me in a direction where I may find information on flags carried?

many thanks,

Tally Ho!

steinmetz is CORRECT…though the regulations stated that all regiments were to carry their new issue standards with them, few regiments did so. Instead they took along their Napoleonic Standards – often mere rags on a pole. A sense of honor brought this about.
btw, (CAUTION: SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION LINE) carry 1870 Prussian Flagsheets. Visit outlandgames.net
the Outlander…

Nothing like a plug, how do I order? (UK based)

Tally Ho!

"Sorry, but most of the evidence is that the Prussians did indeed carry their flags into battle in 1870-71".

I'm happy to be corrected and in the process learn something new. What evidence do you mean and what are the sources? I have a number of books (in English) on the subject, ranging from contemporary sources to new texts, all of which agree that no or few Prussian flags were carried in battle.
I understand that one incorrect source can influence others but I haven't seen evidence to the contrary, even in the French and German sources or illustrations I have. I must admit I haven't come across Major Fiebig, but then again none of the authors I've read have either!

Cap'n,

I only came across it a couple of years ago quoted as a source, and was lucky to come across a copy in a German bookshop advertising on ABE books on the internet. I had became aware of it when the German Army Museum in Dresden kindly sentme a photocopy of the chapter on Saxon flags in response to an enquiry I had made relating to the Saxons in 1866. They were also kind enough to let me see some of the originals, all of which they have in the magazines behind the Museum, but that is another story. He certainly seems accurate in his descriptions of those when compared with the originals. Fiebig is also quoted as a reference in the Osprey Prussian and Prussian Allies books, although one or two differences appear to have come across in transcription. I would confess that my "most of the evidence" is largely confined to Fiebig (who is also used by Bleckwenn as a source regarding Prussian flags of the 7 years war). The reason I am inclined to believe him, however, is the wealth of detail he provides regarding which flags were damaged where in regard to 1866 and 1870, and which standard bearers were killed or wounded, often by names. He also comprises a great list of those regiments which took flags into the field in 1914, organised by corps.In terms of illustrations (which are of course, I admit, not direct first hand evidence), Fiebig has many plates of paintings and also many engravings which show flags, in various stages of decay, being carried in action in these wars.
Right, that is my confession off my chest (!), I would be equally interested in your English and contemporary sources which appear to offer a counter view. Like you, I am always happy to be corrected and learn something new. Maybe 1848 1871 can shed some more light, as I believe he is Stuart Sutherland, one of the foremost experts in this field?

Regards

Andrew

I confess to the identification. At the risk of appearing overbearing, I must say that the topic of Prussian flags in the 19th century is extremely large and that it is quite difficult to give a good overview. Fiebig is indeed one of the better sources, but then the German general staff has a history of the colours and standards of the army published in the late 1880s which is in some ways definitive. Nor should the regimental histories be forgotten, for they often have supplementary material. Reinhold Redlin's massive compilation of drawings and descriptions needs to be consulted as well.
Because I am not sure how to approach the topic in a way which will please everyone, I have limited my comments to general ones. But I would propose that I give examples of one or two (emphasis here) infantry and cavalry flags from the Franco-German War.

I was also aware of the existence of the German General Staff History, although sadly I have not been lucky enough to gain access to a copy. Hence I could not quote it in my defence. I had assumed (always a dangerous word!) that Fiebig used it as one of his sources, although his lack of a bibliography is one of my greatest regrets about his book. That said my assessment on his general reliability, if not the absolute accuracy of every single statement he makes, is based on the enormous amount of detail he has collected. The book is over 300 pages long, with numerous photographs of original flags, together with a list of the whereabouts, at time of writing, of flags still in existence (many, doubtless, now lost). It details the design, with illustrations in the vast majority of cases, of the flags of all the battalions in the post Napoleonic War Prussian Army, with dates for which types were carried when. It also details the flags of all battalions of the other German States which entered the Empire in 1871 as semi or pseudo independent states. It only really lacks those states absorbed direct into Prussia proper in 1866, so it sadly does not contain information on the flags of Hesse-Kassel, Nassau and Hanover ( although a museum in Celle kindly sent me a photocopy of an article by a Dr. Ottfried Neubecker which details those flags carried by the Hanoverians at Langensalza in 1866). The only places I have heard the assertion that the Prussians did not carry flags, or that they only carried bare poles, or that they only carried one per three battalion regiment, is in material contained in various TMP threads. So I would still be fascinated, and very gratfeul, to be acquainted with the sources of these ideas, if anyone has access to them. Contemporary sources would be particularly welcome!

Regards

Andrew

Andrew,

The work you are looking for is 'Geschichte der Königlichen Preußischen Fahnen und Standarten seit dem Jahre 1807', and was not a General Staff work, but was published by the War Ministry. Two volumes 1889-90. Two further volumes followed. The Universität der Bundeswehr in Hamburg certainly has a set.

Mike

Mike,

Thanks, the exact title will be a great help in my search. Sadly Mons is some way from Hamburg!

Andrew

Indeed, Andrew,

'Contacts' should do it, though!

Mike

Hmmmm Mike,

Is that an offer….. or a taunt???!

Andrew

Andrew,

I'll contact you off group!

Mike

With respect to the state of the flags in 1870/71, there is a series of illustrations produced in 1854 in Prussia and in the Anne S. K. Brown Military Collection in Providence, RI, which depict all the infantry and cavalry flags. Most if not all illustrations of the older ones of the infantry, i.e., those carried by the Guards and the 1st to 20th regiments, show only the poles or only scraps of silk adhering to them. If the flags were in that state in 1854, I reasoned they would still have been so in 1870.

The 'new' Guards regiments excluded, of course.

Mike

I'm going to have to add shreds of paper to my Prussian standard poles clearly!
The accounts I've read were clearly not very well researched, thanks for the thorough correction!

Since the bare poles will not be that interesting, the addition of the campaign streamers will give some colour. The vast majority of the older flags were entitled to bear the 1813-15 campaign streamer, which was a dull orange with side edging in black and white stripes and two silver and black tassels. The streamer was tied around the top of the staff and was about the same length as a flag. Most of the regiments also had the 1866 streamer, which was also orange but with white and black stripes.
Stuart

Since Stuart (1848 71) has highlighted the boring nature of the poles, I thought people might be interested to know that the "official" pole colours for the 1860s and 1870s were set down in an All Highest Cabinet Order. If I recall correctly it did recognise that any relacquering/repainting necessary would await a suitable opportunity, but the order was: Guard Foot regiments – Yellow Poles

Guard Grenadier and Line Grenadier regiments(nos 1-12 inclusive) – White Poles

All other Line Regiments – Black Poles

I acknowledge Stuart as much better informed than I am, so he may have some information on exceptions to this rule or on when it was actually carried out in particular instances. The existence of the order came to my attention in a booklet of the Rastatt Army Museum in Baden-Wurttemberg, which covers the Guard Corps flags deposited in their care. I believe its author was Reinhold Redlin, a recognised authority on these matters.

Andrew

Answering part of my own question, regiments Nos 89-96 in the N.German confederation were made up of the troops of smaller states. These had their own unique design flags and the following pole colours (according to Fiebig)

Nos 89 and 90. Mecklenburg. White Poles, gold finials

No 91 Oldenburg. Dark Blue Poles, gold finials

No 92 Brunswick. Brown Poles, gold finials.

No 93 Anhalt. Black Poles, silver finials.

No 94 Saxe Weimar. White poles, gold finials.

No 95 Saxe Coburg Gotha. Dark Green poles, gold finials

No 96 Saxe Altenburg. Btn 1 Brown Pole, gold finial
Btn 2 Brown Pole, silver finial
Btn 3 D.Brown Pole, gold finial

Andrew

Andrew,
I can confirm your colours for Prussian poles. The egimental histories I have seen mention the colours for the poles, and they follow your system. The question of the flags of the minor states is much more complex, and all I wil say at the moment is that the designs were, with one exception, nothing like the Prussian flags and that, as with the Prussians, many flags had most if not all of their sheets destroyed by 1870.
Stuart