"Were WW2 Rifle Grenade Launchers useful?" Topic

Were WW2 Rifle Grenade Launchers useful?

As I recall the Germans and Americans used them, but in late war Europe, how common were they issued? Were they liked by soldiers in the field or were they tossed as useless gear?

Thanks All
Amalric

I don't know about late war, but I'm reading "All American, All the Way" a very detailed book on the 82nd in WWII. In Sicily they made extensive use of them, even grouping all the rifle grenadiers together for support in assaults.

They were useful right to the end – and oft times used line an RPG to support an assault or like a mortar support group. At least from my limited reading on them – like aercdr – the 82nd used them quite a bit and found them useful.

I guess that anything that added to a small unit's capability remains a good thing! Think of the time it takes to request (and get) mortar support and then HOPE it hits that mg nest in the 3rd window of that house that has you pinned down! If you had a rifle grenade capability, that mg nest could be history, quicker. Just like in earlier times, the more time you spend in a kill zone, the more will get killed!

Tom Dye
GFI

IIRC, the French had a "grenadier" in each squad to shot rifle grenades in 1940. I seem to recall that most every army had them at one time or another. Whether there was a doctrine developed or effective use ever made will have to be answered by another.

Michael

I remember reading a couple of accounts from Rangers in Gela, Sicily who choose the Springfield over the Garand because the Garand could not handle a rifle grenade as of yet. Heck of a trade off

I also read about an 82nd Airborne Company commander who organized all the Rifle Grenade soldiers into a group for firing on an Italian fortified position. This same commander Cap. Sayre received the Distinguished Service Cross for personally leading the assault.

Duane

I've never come across them being used by the British in Europe or the Med, but they were very commonly used in Burma, as the timed fuse of a rifle grenade, compared to the percussion fuse of the 2-inch Mortar bomb meant that they could be fired through a tree canopy without exploding on contact with the tree branches above the firer. Indeed, there was a general shortage of 2-inch Mortars in the theatre in any case, which wasn't resolved until mid-1944.

The Germans don't seem to have used them to a great extent until 1945, when they were presumably issuing every weapon they had in stock to front-line units. I've read two British divisional histories where the use of massed rifle grenades was a new and unpleasant experience in the Rhineland fighting of March 1945.

Springfield rifles retained for use as a grenade launcher rifle seems somewhat common. A problem with the M7 GL for the Garand is that you could not fire the weapon semi auto with the launcher attached. Not a problem when firing grenades but probably a pain in a firefight.

My father was a Austrlaian Commando (2/3 Commando, 2nd AIF) and he used an EY? rifle (.303 with a grenade launcher). As he later got compensation for the impact it had on his hands, I can only assume he used it extensively.

Have a great day, Frank

It should be noted that the US rifle grenades (and probably others) came with an anti-tank version that were quite capable of damaging light armor. I have read of them being used used against French armor during the Torch landings and elsewhere.

US ones- yes

they were great for door knockers when fighting in cities. The standard warhead on the at rifle grenade was essetnially the same as the bazooka round. And there were AP versions that fired a standard grenade, and they could launch flares etc,

many were lost by accident, but not tossed away as they were very useful.

I think the main reason they were used in Burma was that they never had enough mortars.
The percussion charge of a 2" was notoriously difficult to trigger. It's why they were so handy in heavily wooded areas.

Thanks jgawne for the part about the rifle grenade equivalency. I often wondered about that. I'd like to see more about and distibution of other grande types.

cool

thanks

It is my understanding that some US infantry units liked rifle grenades and some didn't.
They got a bad reputation in a number of units. You had to change bullets to use a blank and I think someone had a bit of an accident somewhere along the line.

Most units didn't really need extra support so human nature says why bother with an extra gizmo. Especially if it could possibly be dangerous to oneself.

Elite units such as paras were of course higher motivated and trained and also didn't have as good support available.
They might actually have bothered firing a few off before in training.
Some US units which fought a lot of street fighting late war in germany became keener on them ( and bazookas) since they couldn't call support fire into built up areas. One experimented enthusiastically firing 60mil mortar rounds from rifles.

Rilfe grenades were in many ways a holdover from WW1 – they were very useful indeed in fighting through dense trenches and crater positions lacking overhead cover. There were fewer opportunities for that in WW2 and the general allocation of other infantry support weapons was so much higher in WW2 units than WW1 ones that an improvised light mortar wasn't much use.

Thanks gents for all the great replies and info.

Amalric

SteveJ,

Agreed that there was a large-scale shortage of 2-inch Mortars. This was certainly the case in 81 (West African) Division, who got their first 2-inch Mortar indirectly, by recapturing it from Burma Independence Army irregulars (the division finally got its issue of 2-inch mortars in July 1944).

However, according to the writings of 'Mad Mike' of 77th Brigade, the Chindits had the kit and had the option, but actively selected the rifle grenades over the 2-inch mortar for the above-mentioned reasons.

IIRC In the book Company Commander, the author discusses firing 60mm mortar rounds from the rifle grenade launcher. It basically put a 60mm mortar in the front line foxholes.

RMD- you're the expert in this field. Wouldn't dream of contradicting!
Maybe one reason they didn't like the mortars was because of the soft undergrowth failing to set off the fuses?
I do know they were quite different to the German equivalent in this respect. Theirs tended to detonate at the slightest impact, which could be a disadvantage in certain scenarios.

About those French VB rifle grenades; the French always massed them at the platoon level as a matter of doctrine, with a fourth VB launcher as part of the platoon command section who directed the fire of the massed VB launchers during the fight.

While not perfect, my own experiences using VB launchers playing Disposable Heroes (among other rules) is that they can ruin some poor soldat's day if they're in a static defensive position. I managed to splatter a real pesky sniper quite handily in one game IIRC…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

My Dad was a chindit.
I'll ask him about grenade launchers next time I see him.

As I recall, WW2 rifle grenades varied greatly in effectiveness, especially in range. Does anyone know the effective range of the French VB off hand? I know the Russians had one that could theoretically shoot out to 800 meters with a certain charge, although it never made it to the troops in any great number.

Dad says no 2" mortar in his platoon.
They didn't like rifle grenades because ( he says ) they sometimes damaged your rifle.
So not a lot of rifle grenades neither.

"Does anyone know the effective range of the French VB off hand?"

From the research efforts of Messr. David Lehmann:

"
The 'Tromblon VB' (Tromblon Vivien-Bessière) grenade dischargers are fitted on Lebel Mle1886/93 rifles, Lebel Mle1886 R35 and sometimes MAS Mle1936 rifles. Every French infantry platoon has a group of VB grenade launchers. Feared for its efficiency among German troops since WW1 and very valuable because of their ability to engage and destroy entrenched troops and MGs.

The VB grenade was used during WW1 by the USA and UK and
copied by the Germans. The discharger is attached to the muzzle of the rifle and either 1 or 2 grenades, as desired, are inserted. The rifle is loaded with an ordinary cartridge. The bullet is fired and passes through the barrel of the rifle and the central tube of the grenade(s), forcing the striker against the primer and igniting the fuze, the VB rifle grenade will explode 8 seconds later.

The gases generated by firing the cartridge collect in the lower chamber of the discharger and exert a pressure on the base of the grenade great enough to propel the later at a distance of 170m with a rifle (800mm barrel) when only 1 grenade is fired. These grenades were shipped in wooden boxes that held a total of 48 each. Each box was marked with a painted yellow circle that had black lettering which contained the following information in it;

Top line: the type of grenade it carried ( V.B. EXP. ) and number contained,

Second line: type of explosive, who manufactured the explosive, the
Lot number along with the month and year it was manufactured in,

Third line: the manufacturer who filled the grenade, the Lot number along with the month and year it was done.

There is a minimum range because the grenade would have to be fired close to the vertical and would explode in the air, before reaching the ground. That can nevertheless be used to create dangerous air bursts.

The range is 80m with an angle of 85° and 175m with an angle of 50° when usind a rifle with a 800mm barrel.

The Tromblon was carried in a special shaped leather holster called an Etui, which was normally worn on the waist belt of the grenadier. A special sight called the "appareil de pointage et de repérage Mle1917" and Mle1917M
(modified) was developed for use with the tromblon that could used to help verify the angle at which the weapon was fired and aided in determining the approximate range the grenade was to go.

The difference between the two different sights was in the range calibrations. These sights were affixed to the rear sight of the weapon by means of a hand-tightened screw.

Grenade explosive Mle1915 (VB de guerre) (explosive and fragmentation, dangerous in a 100m range)

Caliber : 50 mm
Weight : 490g
Explosive : 60g
Range : 80-170 m (800mm barrel rifle) or 145-215m (450mm barrel carbine)
The sighting device Mle1917 M is graduated from 10m to 10m until 170m
Rate of fire : 4-9 rpm (therefore usually a group of 3-4 VB launchers are firing together)

There were about 16 tromblons VB issued per company, which could cover a 200m wide front and fire together at up to 150 rpm.

Ranges of VB grenades : the grenades range was determined by the angle of fire that the trombon was pointed when the grenade fired.

Angle of Fire and Range (with the Balle "D" service bullet loaded with BN3F powder and 800mm barrel ) :

45° : 190 meters
50° : 175 meters
55° : 170 meters
60° : 160 meters
65° : 140 to 150 meters
75° : 110 to 120 meters
80° : 85 to 100 meters
85° : 80 meters "

Clear things up for you?

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net