"Giant Lizard (Megalania): Could It Still Exist In Australia?" Topic

This about alleged sightings of Megalania Prisca in Australia:

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What do you guys think?

CC

It's possible but not likely

Possible because there are still discoveries of new species and supposed extinct species, like the prehistoric woolamai pine that was found in a remote gully in a national park.

Not likely because most of the mega fauna that survived up until the the arrival of humans was wiped out by predation and environmental impacts as the landscape changed from rain forest to grassland Savannah.

The sightings are most probably goannas or saltwater crocs. Young goannas can reach 2 metres easy. Older ones get up to smaller saltwater crocodile dimensions. Crocs don't usually get to far south but they can manage along the coast, they just can't breed because it's too cold.

At least I hope not…

About the Aborigine stories on the subject:

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CC

What would it eat. While large reptiles can get by on alot less then the same size mammal, I cant see it making do on rabbits and similiar sized creatures.

So probably as likely as Big Foot sightings in Mississippi. Which is probably due to too much local home brewed.

I would point at this being a saltwater croc: due to shifts in climate, they are moving south and here in NZ we are expecting to see one any day up in Northland.

Doug makes a good point: The largest Monitor lizard (Same family as the Goanna) is the Komodo Dragon, and those things need to eat at least one 45Kg deer or two 25Kg goats per two day period as a minimum to remain in active condition.

Hi Doug,

If they still existed, they could live off livestock in rural areas and roos or wombats in national parks.

Originally they dined on other megafauna… Oversized roos, wombats, emus and the like. When this foodsource dried up, they probably died out.

There are enough smaller nasties to worry about here without giant lizards!

Sounds like a cheap B-movie idea. Oh, already done.

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Brian

As for food sources . . .

One of those "stories" seem to point that cattle have been attacked and consumed.

Also, doesn't Australia have a big problem with large feral pigs in the wild?

I am also a skeptic, but I was also a skeptic about the giant squid and have since been proven wrong. :)

CC

This is funny:

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CC

Covert Walrus: "Komodo Dragon, and those things need to eat at least one 45Kg deer or two 25Kg goats per two day period as a minimum to remain in active condition"

Wow. I thought that they were like crocs and snakes, and only needed one big meal every couple of weeks because of their slow metabolism.

CC

I cant see them eating livestock. If ranchers there are like the ones here, everytime an animal dies they go running to the feds and blame it on Wolves so they can get the endangered label removed so they can be shot. If livestock starts going missing it gets noticed right away.

Also I dont think Cryptozoology is really seen as a legit science. Does any one know one University that gives out a degree in it? They tend to be the same group of people that try and prove that ghosts exits and that the moon landing was faked.

I consider Cryptozoology a legitimate science. Some of the people in this field are fully accredited zoologists and wildlife biologists. They are not all loons camping out in the High Sierras hoping to run into Bigfoot. Just look at some of the expeditions attempting to capture a giant squid. I'd also point out the the Coelecanth, Okapi and a whole raft of different birds were unknown less than a hundred years ago and are now completely accepted species.

Also, doesn't Australia have a big problem with large feral pigs in the wild?

Yeah, that. Also, plenty of feral camels and water buffalo in places. (Australia is now the only place in the world with 'wild' camels)

Also, plenty of goannas! Young komodo dragons actually act almost like a different species, in a different ecological niche. That niche being further down the food chain than older Komodo Dragons. I think a few six-foot perenties could keep an M. prisca ticking over nicely.

Covert Walrus: that's about half the weight of a top-end dragon. Every two days. Colour me dubious – what're your references?

Doug: in parts of Australia the most convenient method of personal transport is aeroplane. That's not a comment that M. prisca are running amuck just out of eyeshot, or that Australian ranchers are less attentive than American counterparts, but… well, I don't think you can equate the two situations too strictly.
Also, there's cryptozoology and there's cryptozoology. Undiscovered but rumoured species all fall under the same umbrella, whether they're giant squid and Vietnamese antelope, or Scottish plesiosaurs and Himalayan apemen. The Gorilla is a famous example: it was a cryptid until the 19th century. Ditto with the creature that popped up in this discussion – the Komodo Dragon – except later, in the 20th century.
More about legitimate cryptozoology here:

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So far what I've written are rebuttals to, frankly, poor knowledge. But do I think there are M. prisca still holding out in remote areas of the outback? I don't know. It might be possible, particularly considering the very sparsely populated (by humans) setting, and I would like it to be true; but I'm not holding my breath.

"plenty of feral camels and water buffalo in places"

Along with feral pigs (and the occasional human), that could be a pretty good menu.

At least that would answer the "what would it eat" question, right?

CC

Here's the wiki link on the Komodo Dragon

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They don't require many meals at all due to that slow reptilian metabolism. However, an individual meal may be very large indeed.

On the original topic, I'd agree with the 'possible but unlikely' concensus. The advent of large mammalian predators was the death knell for most species of large predatory reptiles. That slow metabolism is a double-edged sword. While it provides certain benefits, normally a lizard is not as active as a mammal, and can't catch a large enough share of food in an even match to survive. The large reptiles we do see, such as the Komodo, exist because their forebears were lucky enough to make it to an isolated island ecology with no large predatory mammals. This allows the lizard to move into the apex predator position.

If it has indeed become extinct, when did it happen?

I keep seeing estimates of from 40,000 to 20,000 years ago (both well within the period of the coming of aborigines into Australia).

Also, were the monitors encountered by H. Floresiensis Komodos or were they Megalania?

Thanks.

CC

I saw a documentary that theorised ths Aboriginies killed them off by burning the grasslands on purpose. They used this as a hunting method as it was the only way they could deal with them.

Sorry to go on to a tangent here, but the idea of the cause of the Megafauna die offs has changed quite a bit over the decades. Now, the big lunks all died of the result of rapid climate changes. And there may be some good science to show this.

I have this nagging doubt that some of this may be PC thinking instead. The idea that "noble" aboriginal peoples overhunted these creatures into extinction, instead of being "stewards of the environment" goes against the popular perception. And that won't do.

Sorry if I derailed anything, but this came into mind as I read through the thread.

Ralph

Like many places in the world, there's a lot of megolomania in Australia.

Oops, sorry…

The idea that "noble" aboriginal peoples overhunted these creatures into extinction, instead of being "stewards of the environment" goes against the popular perception.

Ralph, we get the same thing here with first nations people. Yet in Labrador, there's a group that goes out and whole sale slaughters caribou from one particular endangered herd, leaves carcasses behind.

Plus recall that it's now felt that many large land animals in the Americas were hunted very quickly to extinction when the first people arrived.

I don't think the issue is whether early man would have killed wholesale, it's whether they could have killed megafauna without suffering unacceptable casualties. Recent digs in Czechoslavakia found that mammoth remains that showed signs of butchering were a) located next to watering spots and b) were almost exclusively old or young. So early man would cull the weak from the herd but unlikely they would take on a healthy mammoth with little more than spears. Additionally coprolite(fossilized fecal matter) finds from early man show a dietary breakdown of 80/20 in favor of plants over meat. Finally, just to hunt bison they had to run them off cliffs, ala Head Smashed In. And we have yet to find a megafauna mass kill site that I know of. The abandonment of the man the hunter myth is due more to new evidence than wanting to protect aboriginals feelings. There is some argument that native Americans caused large scale erosion since they were running around everywhere and not keeping on the paths. :)

I love these casts:

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CC

This one too:

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CC

I'd go with: possible but VERY unlikely. To add to previous points made I'd point out that although there are still new large species being discovered and described around the world, they are never reptiles. Lots of mammals (antelope and even new dolphins, etc), some fish, but not lizards.

>"the Coelecanth, Okapi and a whole raft of different birds were unknown less than a hundred years ago "

Yes but Cryptozoologists weren't looking for them were they? They were looking for Nessie and Bigfoot. Fishermen found the Coelacanth and real mainstream scientists identified it. Nobody suspected it was down there until it was found.

In my experience Australian cryptozoologists are mainly concerned with looking for the Yowie. Oz's version of Bigfoot, a 7 or 8 foot tall hairy humanoid marsupial with a pouch. Rediculous.

A minor nit, but coelacanths were known from fossils before they were found alive.

Loren Wiseman
lorenwiseman.com
irbw.com
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Vermis, the Wiki article is pretty good. The main thing to recall about the Komodo and all the Monitor family, which is what we are talking about, is that the beasts hold themselves off the gorund almost like a mammal, and run around quite actively, so unlike a croc that can rest while floating in the water, they use a lot of metabolic energy.

Granted, it's not as high enrgy as a mammal, but it takes more food to 'stoke' them than say a python of similar mass.

I don't think the issue is whether early man would have killed wholesale, it's whether they could have killed megafauna without suffering unacceptable casualties.

And we have yet to find a megafauna mass kill site that I know of.

Zipang, thanks for the response. However, I don't know if I can agree with the above statements. That presupposes that Megafauna cannot be hunted without casualties among the hunters, sufficient enough to endanger the tribe, (I assume that is what you mean by "unacceptable"). Your second comment seems to assume that Magafauna cannot be hunted to extinction without some sort of "mass kill site". These massed sites tend to contain "herding animals" such as the buffalo you mentioned.

Additionally coprolite(fossilized fecal matter) finds from early man show a dietary breakdown of 80/20 in favor of plants over meat.

I'd say that is pretty consistent with any neolithic hunter-gatherer society.

The abandonment of the man the hunter myth is due more to new evidence than wanting to protect aboriginals feelings.

Then may I suggest you reexamine the recent literature and the political baggage that accompanies it? (just check the tempest that finding evidence of cannibalism among the Anasazi brought- off topic, I know). Look, I'm not saying that humans killed everything on the continent, I just wonder when "Man the Hunter" became a bona fide "Myth"!

Ralph

Zipang,

You might find this interesting:

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TMP link
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Didn't the New Zealand Moa die off centuries before Europeans met the Maori inhabitants?

Madagascar had giant Lemurs too:

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Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera . . .

Intentional erradication or not, all men (technologically primitive or advanced) tend to exploit resources until they are exhausted. Human nature common to all.

CC

Ha! You won't believe this but I'd just clicked on to TMP & I heard a loud rustling noise from outside the window.
It was a big (< a metre and a half) goanna.
I haven't seen one around for awhile as they pretty shy with people.

LOL

See! They're out there!!!!

CC