"Babylon 5 A Call to Arms Minis going OOP" Topic

Just got the word this morning

After a very successful period of producing miniatures for our award winning game A Call to Arms Mongoose Publishing is announcing today that we will cease production of this range of models with effect from March 31st 2008.

The increasing costs associated with this range means that the production of miniatures is no longer commercially viable at this time.
<snip>
We will not be discontinuing production or distribution of the rulebooks and the game will continue to be supported in Signs & Portents and by our demo team members.

The snip is my own, a sentence or two about a special offer for distributors to get a last chance buy.

I wish I had the spare capital to buy the molds, I really think this line could have been something.
Neal

Well, looks like this game is dead…again. How many game lines have they killed?

I still say they made the mistake of not using the Fleet Action minis. If they had, I would have purchased them whole hog. Looks like they didn't learn from AoG's mistakes.

Thats bad news. I actually like and play B5 ACTA. Guess I better give my fleet a once over and try to get a last minute order in before the minis go bye-bye.

Dave

So now all the B5 spaceship minis are going the way of Starship Troopers miniatures???? (yes, I know they are SUPPOSED to come back 'later this year' as pre-painted plastics…but….)

This does not BODE well for any more minis…etc….(or am I just being 'paranoid'…again???)

*slish…slish*

I agree with CPBelt, I actualy sold off all my larger minis in favour for a power buy of AoG's fleet action minis. This is the kind of news that some how, even tho i've played only 2 games ever ruin my day. And before anyone thinks I did'nt do my bit… I did have at one time, Earth, Vorlon, Minbari, Narn and Centauri fleets… bummer

and they are picking up TRAVELER…but somehow I don't see minis becoming part of THAT equation after all this???

So, how long before the real truth hits everyone and Mongoose just says they are an RPG/Rules only shop. Like others, I will also say that I never bought into the game mainly because they did not go with the Fleet Scale miniatures.

I always said that they should have shopped their casting and mini distribution out to someone more competant. Seems that the cost to get their miniature quality up to acceptable levels is beyond what they're willing to spend on it.

Very disapointing as they were starting show some improvement. I hope my friend who got shafted on his Drakh Mothership still gets his replacement.

Huh – that's too bad. I like the rules (haven't seen the second edition yet, though). Might have to see if I can pick up some of the Late EA that I like.

I'm wondering how much licensing fees might have played a part in this. Someone else could pick up the molds, but then wouldn't they have to pay similar fees?

I have plenty of the AoG minis, 1st ed counters, fan made counters and some ships that (in low light)will pass for the models concerned. Better start practising with MS Paint!

I still say they made the mistake of not using the Fleet Action minis. If they had, I would have purchased them whole hog. Looks like they didn't learn from AoG's mistakes.

Amen. And this in the year that Mongoose was to become a proper miniature manufacturer…

I imagine licencing fees would figure heavily into the bottom line. I hope someone else picks up the old AOG or current ACTA lines but I am not hopeful at all on this.

Dave

It's not a license issue, that still has a year to run (and that's from a conversation I had with Matt at Mongoose this morning).

This is down to the cost of producing the minis.

Somehow I'm willing to bet this has something to do with their molds. IIRC they're still using the old AOG ones for a lot of their product line, and if so their replacement is coming due anytime now. They might not be able to justify the cost of replacing so much of their core product….

Well, I'm glad I never started collecting the B5 ACTA ships. I played the first edition rules a couple of times using the counters that came with the game, which I will continue to do if I ever play again.

Mongoose has disappointed me by discontinuing other product lines in the past, most notably Starship Troopers and Battlefield: Evolution. Still, I thought ACTA was their best selling line so I'm a bit surprised by this latest news.

Someone there should take a business class or two.

Mold replacement is an expensive proposition. Even the less expensive 12" rounds run about $8-12 a pop depending on how many you buy. Plus not many shops have more than one vulcanizer and may or may not have a mold maker on staff so replacing an entire line will take a considerable amount of time in addition to the materials cost. Nowhere near the cost of a plastic injection molding but still have hefty expense for a line like B5 ACTA which has a lot of different models in the line which translates into a lot of production molds.

Dave

Just to pointout, AoG minis are still available off their website, made 4 orders in 2007 and will be making another next month.

Who or what is AoG?

Agents of Gaming – IIRC they had the first B5 minis

I cannot understand why GZG is doing well with their Full Thrust minis but no updated rules and Mongoose fails miserably with their minis again and again and makes good rules.

I cannot understand why GZG is doing well with their Full Thrust minis but no updated rules and Mongoose fails miserably with their minis again and again and makes good rules.

Yes, it is odd especially since Battlefront showed the market that the successful merger of rules and miniatures can pay big dividends.

Dave

And to clarify, the bulk of the Mongoose A Call to Arms range was based off of the masters from Agents of Gaming.

They went out of buisness in 2002

link

Warner decided not to renew the license that time.

Because GZG makes non-franchise specific science fiction miniatures. You don't need to play Stargrunt II to use SGII figures. You don't need to play Full Thrust to use FT starship models. You don't need to play Dirtside II to play with DSII miniatures.

With the multitude of generic sci-fi rules out there, creating new miniature options is a license to print money. Remember, GZG is pretty much a one man company, and Jon Tuffley has to keep the bottom line in mind. Rules development, playtesting, and publishing costs time and money that could go into producing a sure money maker: More miniatures.

As for the topic at hand…

I'm of two minds about this. First of I'm really disappointed because I happen to like A Call To Arms and seeing the third (fourth, if you count the Full Thrust-inspired space combat rules written by Jon Tuffley for Chameleon Eclectic's short lived "Babylon Project" RPG ) B5-related space combat game go into the graveyard so soon after its second edition is very sad.

On the other hand…

While the rules are good, Mongoose's handling of the actual miniatures side of the operation has been quite, quite poor. First there was the decision to go with the the B5 Wars scale ships rather than the more economical and popular Fleet Action scale. Then there was the quality issue with the newly cast ships (I bought an IA boxed set and half the White Stars where only half cast). The the prices Mongoose charged for even single ships was tantamount to robbery. Then there the shoddy sculpting of the newer ships such as the first run of Drahk and the "Armageddon" ships.

While I love B5 I don't think that there is really any more enthusiasm for the setting. At least, not enough to justify the risk of anyone to try to pick up the pieces and get a new line of B5 ships started.

So… Babylon 5 space combat gaming, R.I.P

So, how long before the real truth hits everyone and Mongoose just says they are an RPG/Rules only shop.

Not long at all. They just basically said that today on their blog:

link

Damn I'm good.

So now all the B5 spaceship minis are going the way of Starship Troopers miniatures???? (yes, I know they are SUPPOSED to come back 'later this year' as pre-painted plastics…but….)

DWW … this plan was canceled some time back. In their State of the Mongoose letter they specifically mentioned that there are no plans now for pre-painted ST figs.

According to their timeline…

FIRST, they need to sort out the quality problems with the BFEvo line (they had quite a few things in the pipeline, some were even shown as "initial run" minis before they pulled the plug).

SECOND, they need to sort out the cost problems witht he SST line (due to the larger size of the minis, Matt said the costs for these to be pre-painted were higher than they wanted to market, so they needed to find a way to make them cheaper).

THIRD, they were in negotiations with a mysterious Japanese company, and said company loved the BFEvo rules, and they were very, very interested in having Mongoose turn BFEvo into a game to support the mystery company well-established sci-fi product line.

Still up for grabs: would the new BFEvo for this mystery company involve minis of any sort, or just be the rules.

So SST pre-painted minis was essentially put on hold with no actual plans to take it off hold. The rules were going to be revised, and the ONLY thing SST-related they said was coming out was that new V2 rulebook. I don't believe they committed to any new models (but since I don't play SST my memory of that portion of the State of the Mongoose letter is a bit vague now).

For my two cents, I can't say I'm surprised at this news. Mongoose spent a bunch of money revamping their publishing arm in 2007. They now have better equipment, and the capability to do limited-run printing, custom-run printing, and print-on-demand (and hardbound too), all of which makes their printed products easier/cheaper to produce. Being able to do limited print runs means not having to stock much.

I see them doing far more publishing, and far less minis manufacturing.

Steve

and they are picking up TRAVELER…but somehow I don't see minis becoming part of THAT equation after all this???

The Good news: There are two other companies with Traveller minis licenses.

The Bad News: Most current Traveller licenses will sunset without renewal according to current plans, so that Mongoose will be the new starting point for later sub-licensing. Many of the current licenses are set to sunset about the time Mongoose's Traveller support is fated to shut down.

The big problem was BatEvo was a debacle. Mongoose had to take a huge bath on it. And it was a disaster of the highest order both financially and in reputation with all their website review shenanigans.

Even though MongooseMatt said how great they were doing, I remember him posting how he was driving a supercharged Jag..

They do have in house printing but many of their books are bad. The covers come warped as they wrapped to tight. Not to emntion Mongoose has a bad rep in the RPG world for low quality.

Bad times still ahead for the Goose I'm afraid.

"While I love B5 I don't think that there is really any more enthusiasm for the setting. At least, not enough to justify the risk of anyone to try to pick up the pieces and get a new line of B5 ships started."

I don't think so. Star Fleet Battles has been around for something like thirty years. People don't get tired of playing that. B5 had combat as a much more integral and visual part of the show.

Electronic Arts was supposed to be the mysterious third party involved in BF:E.

Hmmm…well guess I'll never finish my vorlon fleet. Well I either sell off what I have or see if I can purchase things I have held off on and continue to play the game with others in our game group that have fleets. Or perhaps it is time to switch to Federation Commander.

You can still get B5Wars minis (and some fleet action)

From here:

link

None of the mongoose designs, though it might help you finish off your Vorlons.

I suspect if the B5 minis are OOP, the rest of Mongoose's metal will be OOP shortly.

I guess the good news is that now that word is out people are scrambling to get the minis they need but have been putting it off.

Unbelievable. I supported Mongoose even through the prepainted debacle. Now, I can't see how they'll have anything I'm interested in since SST is dead. The market will be flooded for about 9-12 months of cheap stuff from both lines. Then prices will jack up as things become much harder to find.

Thanks,

John

So, is Mongoose worthy of the epithet, "The Game Killer"?

Not yet, but like a really bad retail store that poisons the real estate until it's torn down and rebuilt, some of the properties they have touched are going to be tough for anyone else to develop.

As for the next victim in line, Mongoose simply isn't bad enough to kill Traveller. MUCH worse have tried.

The "mystery company" for Battlefield Evolution was Ubisoft, and they were working on the Tom Clancy franchise (Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon).

Deal collapsed and is deader than the proverbial doornail.

No way to spin this except to say Mongoose is in huge trouble (and I have always been a defender). Time often makes up for smarts and even a naive and non-cynical guy like me (okay, but I can always hope) has seen this story way, way too many times to not know where it is headed. I always wondered how they could generate so much product. I actually began to believe they had a genie generating monopoly money. Well, the iron law of economics has finally stepped in. We gamers are just way too few and way too cheap.

ACTA was easily their most successful miniatures line by far. Its the ONLY one they are actually supporting now. Starship Troopers and their moderns game are both on hiatus (in other words, dead as a rock. SST was supposedly waiting on their prepainted plastic line (don't expect to see it now). Better buy the heck out of any remaining SST plastics and lead if you want it because you will likely NEVER see it again (in any form).

Sad because they were fairly prolific in terms of output-particularly as regards their RPGs (Conan, B5 and I had great expectations for their upcoming Traveller). It became clear to me that things were changing with the most recent B5 RPG releases….they had switched to cheaper paper with black and white illustrations versus the slick color product they had been putting out.

My guess is you could buy ACTA minis now at 20% off or wait for bigger discounts from internet distributors (but with more scattered selection). I am sure they will end up selling the miniatures license to someone but no one has been successful so far producing a wide B5 selection (Hint, hint, stick with the major races and more scenario books).

I do think the B5 franchise is viable as a spaceship miniatures game. I disagree with Mark in that regard. In fact, I am not sure there is any healthier spaceship miniatures franchise. Over the last 20 years I have gone each year to the 2 largest cons in the US and have not seen nearly as many Star Fleet Battles minis games versus the hundreds of B5 games I have seen (Silent Death and Full Thrust are generally well represented but not franchises in my mind).

My guess is the fact that they have been so prolific has led to their demise. It often seems to me that the companies (other than GW) that generate tons of minis die a fairly quick death as opposed to those companies that slowly trickle out their product (often to the detriment of the product line) which seem to hang around the longest. Witness Ground Zero Games and Amarillo Design Bureau (Star Fleet Battles).

I'm glad now I never got any ACTA minis, but still hold onto a big batch of Fleet Action ones.

Right Ubisoft. I get them and EA confused.

So Lysander, you're saying Mongoose swamped the market with too many things for players to buy at once. I can kind of agree to that.

I liked the miniatures for B5, sure they were pricey but they were also a pretty big hunk of metal. Even though I too preferred the Fleet Action scale minies. I tell people smaller miniatures mean bigger fleets.

And then you could almost consider the B5 line just like GW LoTR bubble. Sure there are still people that play Starfleet Battles, but they're still making Star Trek movies to generate more fans. B5 was unique in that the series had a definitive ending and now it's over and you'll never see anything like it again, ever! How do you grow the number of players to a game that it's origins is not likely to be seen by many newer gamers?

It's like the fans of LoGH wondering why this series isn't more popular. You'd be surprised to find how many anime fans have never even heard of Legend of Galactic Heroes. Babylon 5 is getting to be just like that.

You'd be surprised to find how many anime fans have never even heard of Legend of Galactic Heroes.

Anime fandom is *very* mercurial, even in the US, and the minority who started prior to Cartoon Network's Adult Swim is shrinking. Trigun is *old* to the current fanbase.

'B5 was unique in that the series had a definitive ending and now it's over and you'll never see anything like it again, ever! How do you grow the number of players to a game that it's origins is not likely to be seen by many newer gamers?'

Um…..you HAVE heard of this thing called DVD, yes?

The season packs are pretty cheap.

And you can rent B5 DVD's at most video stores…….

I too would have preferred the Fleet Action scale but I also admit the big ships did look good on the table. There was a fairly wide variety of Fleet Action ships that AOG already had the molds for that could have been used to give variety. I admit I have a lot of both scales.

The one difficult aspect of getting into a miniatures game for me is the time it takes to assemble and paint an army, fleet, etc. to my satisfaction. By the time I get around to finishing a unit, the game is already in decline. I think that is one of the strong points of prepainted minis in general. The game comes out, you throw the figs down, you play.

Fleet Action scale would have also allowed for quicker turnaround time between minis purchase and playing the game because you could get away with less detail in the final paint scheme. Also assembly was quicker/simpler-if there was any assembly other than basing.

I do think they generated too many minis too quickly. The minute you might want to flesh out one race's fleet, here came the next cool fleet. So instead of selling 1000 EA Destroyers to the market, you sell 500 because folks want to move to that new cool Drazi fleet, etc. The manufacturer's setup and production costs are doubled with the next new ship/fleet and you lose any production economy of scale.

Now you have 2 SKUs you have to convince distributors and stores to carry and they (manufacturer, distributer and store) still have those unsold 500 EA Destroyers sitting around in inventory. Maybe I am wrong and I realize that GW cranks out tons of stuff and pitches new armies every couple of years but I am not certain that works for smaller companies (or maybe even GW any more)and I am not certain that works for a franchise you didn't create (ie.an EA Destroyer isn't going to change every 2 years like the GW Imperial Guard Army does).

Admittedly, the show has been off for almost 10 years now but what franchise Star Trek spinoff do people play? Its not Enterprise, Voyager, DS9 or Next Generation. Its the specific universe created in a show that went off the air 40 years ago with some races that were never seen in any of the spinoffs.

I guess, in the end, I believe it is still a viable franchise to support a gaming system. Its just that someone smarter than me needs to figure out the right way to do it. The thing to ultimately bear in mind is that the minis business is essentially a cottage industry with one or two exceptions. No one is going to get rich off of it. In part, that is why I hate to ask vendors at Cons to give me some great discount. The margins are too small, the volume is too low and I feel like I am taking money right off someone's dinner table when I ask them what kind of deal they can give me.

Just my two cents.

Since the large ships were not as popular as the Fleet Action scale, the Mongoose announcement does not surprise me at all.

Given that Mongoose effectively killed Starship Troopers and now B5, I've grown VERY reluctant for the past 6-12 months to invest in their game products. It's sad, because they have some good stuff, but how can I trust them not to suddenly stop supporting a game I heavily invested in? My overall issue is trust, and Mongoose killed that when they stopped supporting SST and B5.

Hopefully, some kind of B5 phoenix will rise from the ashes, because I agree with the previous B5 hopes/thoughts. There is still good B5 interest; we just need new and more Fleet Action size minis.

"I do think they generated too many minis too quickly. The minute you might want to flesh out one race's fleet, here came the next cool fleet."

Interesting point. They inheirited more molds than could be put into the market at once, which is a rarity in the minis market (I think). Most companies are limited by the time it takes to sculpt and produce new models; Mongoose had molds sitting around ready to go. And AoG is still out there, selling off repurchased back-stock, so you'll see a steady drain: if you wait too long to cast a fleet, the die-hards will have already bought the minis elsewhere. That makes for a difficult timing call, and not one that there is lots of hard data or research to inform.

Update:

It's worse (or I misunderstood the first news report). According to the Mongoose forum, ALL mini production is suspended. This also affects the re-launch of SST.

Read it here: link

SST v2 rules will probably be offered as a free download, tho.

"Since the large ships were not as popular as the Fleet Action scale, the Mongoose announcement does not surprise me at all."

I am not certain its ever been proven that the Fleet Action scale is more popular. I truly do like the detail of the larger ships. My preference for Fleet Action has more to do with cost savings, ease of painting larger units and the ability top get them up and running very quickly.