"Best WW1 Naval rules/game" Topic

May I have your opinions please on the "best" WW1 era either wargames rules for use with miniatures, or board game.

I heard about fleet action imminent and thought it sounded interesting, but I like my games on the simple to middling level and I believe general quarters is very detailed.

So let me know, who likes the avalanche press games, who thinks fleet action imminent is great?

Thanks

Andy Watkins

Queen Victoria's Navy.. tho a little early for your period, I think.. goes to up Tshushima

Fleet Action Imminent is not as daunting as it seems on first glance. A lot of the detail is worked into the national charts (and you only use one chart for each nation when playing); the play itself is pretty straightforward and simple. As to learning the game, at last November's Fall In Mckintsy and I ran 3 games (before the rules were released) and had the players (some of whom had no prior naval game experience) up and running the game on their own within 2-3 turns. And that was after spending about 20mins explaining the basics. Of course, your choice will depend on how large a game you want to play. FAI works best up to about 20 ships a side; much larger than that and you'll probably want to go with something like GQ1/2.

The new GQ does run quite smoothly, though I've only played it once. My primary issue with it is i find the ship charts are a bit opaque but I'm sure with experience they would become second nature.

I also like Ben King's "Dreadnought." My gaming club computerized it to get rid of 99.5% of the record keeping and all the dice rolls. We can run Jutland with 4/side and finish it in a day. The rule book also includes ship data for all nations, and there is a companion book for the pre-dreadnought era called "Sides of Steel."

I played GQ3, FAI at Fall-In and I would not call it complex. On a complexity scale of 1 -10 with 10 being complex in the extreme and Battleship being a 1, I'd call GQ3 a 5, Seekreig V a 7 and Command at Sea a 9 with Victory at Sea a 3 and Axis & Allies War at Sea a 2. (Note – neither Victory at Sea or Axis& Allies have a WW1 module yet)

As Coastal says, it really depends on the number of ships youwant in play per side. I agree that over 20 per, i go to GQ2.

"Best" is pretty subjective, but I like MJ12's Grand Fleets. It has just enough detail to have flavor without being overly complex. The flow of play seems logical to me, and the formulas are all given so you can figure out game stats from any ship's real life stats.

I am looking forward to checking out FAI though. (I haven't seen GQ3.)

There's always Fletcher Pratt.

We've been playing GQ 2 but interest has lagged lately. VaS got many people interested in naval gaming until they had played it severals times. It's now been dropped. Several of us have tried GQ 3 and found it great for squadron sized games. We have been waiting for FAI as none of the local group likes to mix planes and ships so WW I looks more attractive than WW II. The GQ system seems to work pretty well for the size games we're able to play.

I haven't played FAI yet, but I have played GQIII, Grand Fleet, Fear God and Dread Naught (Command at Sea series), Seekrieg V, Jutland (Avalon Hill) and probably others. I wouldn't not enjoy the simplicity of some of the current rules, but of these I would rank them on a scale of 1-10: Jutland 2, GQIII 4, Grand Fleets 5, Fear God 8 and Seekrieg V a 9. I feel the last one is probably the most realistic and detailed, but slowest playing and only for "rivet counters" like me. If I could only play one, it would probably be Grand Fleets, though it suffers from lack of support.

Good luck with finding one that suits your tastes.

Michael

For me Fear God and Dread Naught is my favorite. It is comprehensive, yet playable. Although I still hear "calculus at sea" from some, I still don't think it's overly complex. I'm sure being a veteran of many games at Cold Wars/Historicons past with the designers has helped. I tend to do smaller actions, but large actions are possible in a reasonable period of time with some organization.

For quicker larger actions I have used GQ II. Not overly detailed, but resolves actions quickly.

I like Grand Fleets by MJ12 for smaller actions and GQ for larger ones. Haven't tried GQ3 yet.

Thanks,

John

I prefer something really quick and simple, so 'De Bellis Navalis' by Colin Standish (published in WI, around the year 2000) for Ironclad stuff and 'Iron Ships and Wooden Heads' by Tim (based on DBN, also published in WI) for WW1/20s/30s.

Both DBA with battleships aimed at fleet actions and you can fight very, very large engagements in an hour or two.

I would like to thank everyone for such speedy and informative responses.

I am looking for reasonably simple (though not axis and allies!) and able to handle descent sized fleets, say a dozen or so ships per side.

I am pleasantly surprised by the comments about FAI, it sounds less complex than I feared, and don't seem to be hearing very much negative about it?

Please keep up with the advice, I appreciate it all

Andy

I've played Fletcher-Pratt with more than a dozen ships a side, but they aren't really very good rules at all.

If you want a moderate level detail go with GQ.

Several people comment on "GQ", as Martin most recently. I am assuming that this is an abbreviation for GQ Fleet action Imminent instead of GQ 1/2/3

If I am mistaken please say, otherwise I will assume all GQ recommendations mean FAI

Andy

I have had a little more of a look, and at the moment the three most promising sets are :-

GQ FAI – sounds very good
Queen Victorias Navy – actually sounds rather interesting. Anyone know how to get hold of a reasonable price copy of this in the UK, printed or pdf? The postage from the US is more than the price of the product.
The great war at sea series of board games sounds potentially interesting?

Andy

Battleship Captain by Minden Games sounds interesting. It appears to be quick playing and low complexity and designed for fleet actions with Battleships.
They are a miniatures set of rules but come complete with lots of ship counters.
I have just ordered myself a copy from Leisure Games in the U.K. but cannot comment on how they play as I'm waiting for them to arrive.
The few things I've read about them on the web sound promising though.

Link to Minden Games web page.

link

I'm not sure I agree with Kinistry's assessment of CAS and Seekrieg V's places on the complexity scale. I've always felt like CaS has a little less of SKV's complexity, comparatively.

andywatkins

> Queen Victorias Navy – actually sounds rather interesting.
Check out the free downloads.. easily converts to minis..

> The postage from the US is more than the price of the product.

They ain't a big company..:-) All I can tell ya is
I was happy with the game and the service..:-)

I am assuming that this is an abbreviation for GQ Fleet action Imminent instead of GQ 1/2/3

Fleet Action Imminent is the WW1 version of General Quarters 3 with essentially the same mechanics, just WW1 data and ships.

My assessment of Seekreig V versus CAS may well be based on who I've played it with. My SKV games were with folks very familiar with the rules and things flowed well whereas for both myself at the others playing CAS, it really did feel like calculus at sea but then we were all relative newcomers. Either way, both are a level of rivet counting above GQ3.

I have bought a pdf copy of FAI, bit alarmed at first, 95 pages of rules!!!

Actually a lot of that is what looks like a very extensive set of ship record cards.

There are also a lot of extra rules for weather, aircraft, submarines etc and I shall ignore all of those

Will read the core rules in next few days, hopefully those are good solid and not too complex.

No reply yet from Bonegames about queen victoria's navy. I am happy to pay for a pdf but not paying to have a copy shipped all across the atlantic, game does not look good enough to warrant that

Andy

OK,
I have read most of FAI and have to say I am appalled. I have no intention of playing these rules at all.

Some people obviously want to play with these type of rules which is fine. What amazes me is that anyone is seriously recommending these rules to someone like myself.

I am looking for a nice simple set of fleet action rules. Fun, playable yet giving a different feel to the different ships and fleets.

If I may give you one brief example of why I think this game is too detailed for me. When you fire torpedoes you have to record the DEPTH at which you are firing the torpedo (there are two to choose from). I am MORE than happy to abstract out of a set of rules, the need to actually state the depth you are firing your torpedoes at.

If I put FAI at one end of the scale (too complicated)
and Victory at sea (WW2 but they are considering a WWI version) at the other end of the scale (possibly too simple).

Look for something about 1/3rd of the way from VAS to FAI. Completely forget anything more complex than FAI. Completely forget anything where you have to plot torpedo angles, depth, speed of torpedo, colour of torpedo or anything else far beyond what I am looking for.

A big raspberry to the first person who suggest "Battleships" :)

Andy

Ok, let's try this again (Bill, we need a spellchecker!)

Sorry to hear the FAI wasn't what you were looking for. If you're looking for something that'll handle up to 20 ships a side in a few hours of play (say, the battlecruiser action from Jutland), then FAI would fill the bill. For something much larger in a few hours (say, the entire battle of Jutland), then no, FAI would not do it (it would take a whole lot longer) and a simpler set of rules would be appropriate. But FAI is not meant to be that kind of game. Possible suggestions would be Grand Fleet or GQ2; both of these are lower on the complexity scale than FAI.

BTW, all rules seem to trip up when it comes to torpedo rules; for the scale involved, FAI does about as good as you can do with the subject.

If you want something that you can also do campaigns with (and use with tactical hex maps):

link

And I just found out about "Coal and the Kaiser":

link

A nice little set of rules.

I am looking for a nice simple set of fleet action rules. Fun, playable yet giving a different feel to the different ships and fleets.

I would recommend two sets. First is GQ 1 & 2 ("GQ Classic" as I like to think of them). The other is a series called Small War at Sea. There are about a half-dozen books covering every period of naval warfare. I think that the WW1 version is called Dreadnought. You can get players who barely know which end of the ship is which, and get them playing in a short time. They're about the only sets I would use for Jutland, unless you want to dig up the AH game.

A lot of naval gamers are really hard core. (Yes, I'm one of them.) They can tell the detailed specs of ships that went to the breakers before they were born. The problem is that a fleet-commander doesn't have the time to think about that. Jellicoe probably didn't much care about the arc of fire of the offside guns on the Invincibles. He was concerned with two things: can she fight and can she hold station. Details are for squadron commanders and captains.

I love Grand Fleets! Enough detail to keep it interesting. . . not so much that the game gets bogged down and drawn out.

I would Say that GQ 1&2 are good for fleet action. To much chrome in GQ3. The guy at Panzershciffe (makes the 1/2400 resin cast miniatures) has a set of rules called TQ3, but I can't seem to find out much about them. Small Wars at Sea has Dreadnougt. This series has Scenario Books with the ship sheets you need pre preprepared. They also get right to the action. Too bad David Manley hasn't tried his hand at WW1.

Roger

IMO GQ is a little TOO simplistic. So much is abstracted that it looses at lot of flavor IMO.

Grand Fleets strikes a great balance between the two, You can download a demo version of these miniatures rules from here:

mj12games.com

Enjoy!!

Oooops. . . looks like I already posted! LOL!!

FWIW…I did a Geeklist over at BGG where I compared various systems in my collection. Ran the same basic scenario. This hypothetical scenario pits Goeben and Breslau against the British battlecruisers Indomitable and Indefatigable and light cruiser Dublin.

Games compared include:
GWAS Advanced Tactical Combat Rules
GWAS: Dreadnoughts
Shipbase III
Line of Battle
Battlewagon
Fear God & Dread Nought
Seekreig 4
General Quarters
Battleship Captain

See the list at link

General Quarters 2 is still available from NavWar and gives a good fast game for large fleet actions if you have the floor space.

I used to hire a church hall and refight Jutland or similar sized actions in a day.

You have to cut back on the destroyers because there were so many of them.