"Grading Russian Skirmishers" Topic

General de Brigade grades skirmishers as follows:

For FIRING ONLY, 1st Class and 2nd Class
First rate skirmishers: All French, British, Prussian, Austrian (Jagers only) and minor states skirmishers and light battalions graded as 'Line' or above.

Second rate skirmishers: Anything below line
All Austrian, Russian, Spanish and Neapolitan skirmishers and light batts regardless of grade.

Is that
(a) a fair generalisation of all Russian units
(b) a fair representation of specific Russian Units – I gather from reading Mihkailovsky-Danilevsky that, for example, in 1808 the 2nd and 3rd Jaegers had a decent reputation so they might be classed as first class?

The 17th and 28th regiments were elite, though their feats apparently were performed as line infantry, not skirmishers.

The new book The Battle of Borodino by Mikaberidze shows jaegers very often giving the French a tough time, particularly in woods.

Guard Jäger

Life-Guard Jäger, bataillon , then régiment in 1806
Life-Guard Finlandskiy – designated jäger in 1811 (ex- Imperial Militia)

Army Jäger

The jäger of the TSAR Paul were rather small in number : 20 bataillons (or equivalnet).
These trace their heritage to various jäger corps and to detachments of the best shooting in each of the old régiments. These did have rifles with sword bayonette (it is a nice gun) and did shoot well. There was a preference for recruiting among forest areas, and those knowing to hunt on the préserves of the great nobles. The idea was similar to the Austrian jäger.

In the reign of the TSAR Aleksandr, their was a great increase in the number of jägers. By 1805 the 20 bataillions had been built into régiments of 3 bataillions each (although the strength of the Jäger compagnies was ony 2/3 of the the rôle for Grenadiers or Musketeers) and the rifles were ordered to be restricted to the 12 best shooting and sous-officiers.

By 1807, 12 more régiments were formed, all new-raised in 1806. The rifles had indeed by now become rarer. This may be the worst time for the Jägers, as the origianl ones were so dilutioned and the new ones not yet to be experienced.

By 1812, the 33rd through 50th Jägers had been created by almost all conversion of Musketeer régiments. Rifles have been ordered all removed, but still kept by some. The compagnies are the full size. Also, in each bataillion, as in Grenadier and Musketeer régiments, there is an élite Grenadier compagnie, with in it a platoon of grenadiers and a platoon of the best at shooting "Strekli".

In 1813, the 51st through 57th Jägers are created mostly from 2nd (Replacement) and 4th (Reserve) bataillions of the rest of the Army.

Among these, the following are awarded shako badges ( with the inscription "For distinction" – "Za otlichie") in 1813
1st, 5th, 14th, 20th (made new 1st Jägers in 1815)

These were given the honorific St-George banner and made into Grenadier-Jäger régiments in 1814 (renamed Karabiniers in 1815) :
1st, 3rd, 8th, 14th (Crimea, Ionia), 17th (Kavkaz), 26th, 29th

I have not found it listed before 1833, but this one may be did then also a St-George banner receive for 1812-1814
44th

The 2nd was well-thought, as our colleague did note.

Brigaded 6th and 41st in the 12th Division of the General Raevsky – the ones most mentioned as a problem for the French at Borodino. They also did fight well at Saltanovka against the maréchal Davout earlier in the year, and had fought the Turks before that. It was a very good division over all.

These were serving away from Russia, and one supposes that they were good, but only a few of these détchement régiments could be honored , and these were not
13th (Crimea, Ionia) 9th (Kavkaz), 15th (Kavkaz), 16th (Kavkaz)

The Jäger officers were may be a little better than average for Russia Army – also more "Germans" in the low number régiments especially and also more Georgains, Ukrainians, Moldovans, Serbs, Litwas, some Greeks.

Overall. the skill should be about the same as French (year to year), except maybe the new régiments for 1807. But one will note the small numbers in 1799-1805.

- un ami

un ami, interesting…thanks for the data.

thx un ami,

I have read where Russian officers looked down upon being placed into Jager regiments. Have you read this also ?

Also, do you have figures on exact company make-ups for the Russian Jager regiments? I am under the impression that there was only about 400men in a Jager battalion up to 1807 but after the 1811 reforms the battalion strengths increased to that of the Musketeers…

Shane

@Shane Devries

30 avril 1802

3 officiers
2 like warrant officer and cadet
6 under officers
100 jäger
2 drummers
? hornists (they were there before, but not mentioned in the 1802 – but I do not think really all were given drums or muskets)
--------------------
113 total fighting

1 barber (also is dentist, and some primitive surgeon a little)
3 drivers of wagons (it is supposed to be one for ammunition, one for sick or wounded and one for tents – but the one for tents was often for more ammunition, equipment removed from the jägers like bayonette/sword belt and parade items to be lighter, and for officiers' personal use -- tents were ordered left in dépot for all régiments , to include Grenadiers and Musketeers, from 1810 or 1811).
--------------------
4 total not fighting

117 total compagnie

4 compagnies per bataillon
also :
1 senior officier
1 bataillion adjudant
1 bataillion drummer
1 bataillion doctor (not fighting)
1 provost (police – not fighting usually)

473 total bataillion (455 total fighting)

3 batailons per régiment
also (fighting):
1 senior officier (shef)
1 shef's adjudant
1 lieutenant treasurer
1 lieutenant quartermaster
6 musiciens (may be all hornists)
1 régimental drummer
also (not fighting, can some be assigned in to bataillons and compagnies):
1 hospital supervisor under-officer
12 hospital attendants – corps man (1 per compagnie)
1 baggage master
6 scribes – clerks (1 per 2 compagnies)
1 master gunsmith
12 of his apprentices (1 per compagnie)
1 master veterinarian
6 of his apprentices (1 per 2 compagnies)
1 armourer
6 black smiths (1 per 2 compagnies)
12 carpenters (1 per compagnie)
5 drivers of wagons

1493 total régiment (1375 total fighting)

About autumn 1806, it was said to bring the compagnies up to the same strength as Grenadiers and Musketeers. But also 12 new régimetns were raised. So they are small I think at Eylau campagne and likely also small for the Friedland campagne.

For the campagne of 1812 year, it will be the same size as the Grenadiers and Musketeers.

The exact names for each position i can not say with the perfect confidence, as I do not have the full text of all the ukase, ordres, ordonnances, réglements, etc. and also there may be usage not perfectly in the same as the ordres will ask for (also, ordres final and official can come some times after usage). Also, the names of all the positions are in Russian, and not helpful for anglo-phones who will not learn the Russian (at least in transliteration) since the translation can be either of the word of the name, or it can be of the function as if part of an anglo-phone army.

Some of the not-fighting men do not take the field, although is is suposed that all will do so. You will see that the régiment will be very capable of its own logistics. For example, with one apprentice gunsmith per compagnie, it is not impossible to maintain rifles, even of various calibres and to teach the jäger to make bullets.

There is also a half-company or platoon of 1 officier, 3 under-officiers, 50 jäger and 1 drummer (55 total) – he is Взвод ("vzvod") in Russian.

Maybe our very learned colleague @Steven H Smith will add more infos.

Overall it is a great increase in jägers : from 21 bataillons in 1801 to 177 bataillons in 1813 – at the ratio of 1/3 of the infantrie

The Grenadiers and Musketeers did also skirmish, in détachments (such as the Streki platoon or the whole élite compagnie) or in whole of a bataillon. But the idea was that for every 2 Grenadiers or Musketeers that there will be one Jäger in the same division of infantrie. So it was hoped that jäger will skirmish and work in broken terrain and spare this from the formed units.

Equally, the Jäger were expected to form when so ordered. But it was not the idea, and they did get this training and experience of this.

So, like the French légère in numbers (or more so) and like the Austrian jäger in skill and function. It was an ambitious idea, not may be perfectly met.

The reputation of the Jäger was it was not stylish. It was not for the best families to some extent. It was also for those of the remote provinces and for the non-Russians for some extent (non-Russian ethnoc, subjects still of the TSAR). It was also, like the srtillerie and the génie, for the more trained and technical. But these appear to me a slight shadings and not hard or great differences.

- votre ami

P.S. – One will hope also that @Steven H Smith will look to the bottom of the old thread "Russian Cavalry 1799" for a response.

Giving light infantry a special or even elite status is a more recent idea, the usual claims in memoirs and regimental histories notwithstanding.
Throughout the 18th century light capacity was for the most part hired for a campaign from an often dubious background of foreigners and all kinds of adventurers.
Even the original Austrian and Prussian jägers were not a combat elite in the classic sense, they were originally just reliable men who did not risk their civilian career job by deserting.
The original Prussian fusiliers were created by Old Fritz as second rate units for the second line and later converted by him into light infantry.
Conditions did improve through the napoleonic wars, some armies did even create light units for their guards, but even among the elite of the army the guard grenadiers were always the top dogs, not the guard chasseurs or guard jägers.

Perhaps Cpt. Iglo. But what about in the British Peninsula army where the Rifles & later the Light infantry battalions brigaded with them were clearly regarded & treated as an elite?
I would hazard that effective skirmishers in any Nap army had to be bright & lively men: a marked difference from the peasant automatons sufficient for Line infantry.
I would think GdB has used the concept that the down-trodden mujhik would make a poor skirmisher for this reason.
I'm not sure how far this concept matched reality in the Russian armies of the period.
donald