"Lend Lease Spitfires..." Topic

I know the Yanks used Spitfires which we gave to them but were there any Lend Lease Spitfires sent to the Soviets??

Yep, I don't know the numbers but I'm sure someone else will be along shortly with more info! Apparently, the Red Air Force were a bit upset to find they were getting ex-RAF models rather than factory new ones.

Cheers….Can't please some people!!!

What I heard from a Red Army expert (Jack Radey) is that the Soviets got a few, but couldn't convince their ground forces that they were friendly. Apparently the shape of the wings confused Soviet AA gunners, who shot a couple of them down.

Why they didn't just paint big pictures of a smiling Joe Stalin on the undersides I'll never know.

Mserafin,

I do think the problem has deeper roots there. If you look at the recommendations for high German decorations you will find a number when small German units were able to pentrate deep into the Soviet rear with armoured cars or even tanks. Uusually the text says that they painted over the ID crosses and made do wihtout the destinctive German headgear. Usually they were even abel to pass or mix with Soviet cullums during day time. Which would lead me to think that Soviet troops were not exactly trained well when it come to recognition of vehicles.

Cheers,

Burkhard

If they painted Stalin on their planes they would have lost a lot more. Just on principle. Not many russians and even less of the other soviets liked him much. Not sure why, he was such a lovable guy.

From Osprey:

Soviet Lend-Lease Fighter Aces of World War 2
(Aircraft of the Aces 74)

Author: George Mellinger
Illustrator: Jim Laurier

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UK Price: £12.99 GBP
Canadian Price: $27.95 USD

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Paperback; November 2006; 96 pages; ISBN: 9781846030413

The Soviets requested Spitfires in 1942 but didn't get them until March 1943. The Spitfires were 143 standard Mk VBs except they had their VHF radios, which the Soviets didnt use, with HF radios. The aircraft were new but were older Mk Vs not the latest Mk IX's. The Spitfires were delivered in crates to the Port of Basra. They were assembled by the RAF and then flown by their Soviet pilots back to the USSR via Iran.

Later nearly a thousand Spitfire IX's were supplied, 1944-1946?

Neither Mk saw much frontline service. This is for a number of reasons. Firstly the AA freindky fire factor was real,I have read of one Soviet pilot who toured the AA units to familiarise them with the type. However this was common with many Soviet produced aircraft so it probobally not a major factor. The Soviets claimed that the Spitfire was unsutable for use from their simple ( Crude.) airbases,and pulled them back to better airbases around major cities. While the spit was not perfect for operation from crude bases the RAF managed it in the Middle East and India and the Australians managed it in the South Pacific. The RAF claimed it was because the Spits perfomance as an interceptor outclassed all Soviet, and US lend lease, aircraft. Again this was probobally true but by the time the Spits arrived there was less need for this type of defence. The final it was probobally all three of these reasons and the fact 100 octane fuel which the Merlin needed was in very short supply.

The two places the Spit saw moost combat was over the Kuban in spring and summer 1943 and over Leningrad from June 43 to mid or late 44.

Fatman

Sorry for the long post I'm a bit of a Spitophile

Here's abit of an interesting sidelight to the Soviet Spits. An acquaintance of mine who owns a major supplier of flight simulators worldwide related that he had made a trip to the old USSR in the 70's to sell some units to Aeroflot and near Moscow, there was a field packed with old WWII stuff just parked, mostly Lend-Lease stuff. Row after row of B-25s, A-20s, P-39s, P-63s, P-40s, P-47s, and several Spits. He wanted to swing a deal with the Soviets for some of the hardware (he's a major collector and restorer of warbirds) but was told a great big "nyet"! Too bad… By the way, my acquaintance did finally get a pair of Spits for his collection, but from India. I don't think this was one of those apocryphal "there's a P-XXXX parked in some guys backyard" stories that come up, as this was related by the individual who actually SAW the planes and certainly knows the difference between a WWII aircraft and a contemporary prop driven aircraft. Too bad that those machines were almost certainly cut up for scrap.
Corsair

Cheers all very useful…For the recognition issue, wasn't the Mig 3 very similar to the Spitfire???

Hi

Not really, the superior performance thing, not at the altitudes and WHEN they arrived. The reason is simpler. All russian fighters were low maintainence. You gassed, armed and flew, and when they needed real work, likely parked them. Spits needed work every mission.

This is a fact we keep learning. When we got our first Mig 15 in Korea, the most impressive aspect of the mig was that you just gassed and went.

R

Something I got as a Christmas pressie was a folder of various pics and stuff relating to the Hurricane and Spitfire, including copies of a couple of telegrams –

From British Military Mission Moscow to War Office (21 June 1493) -

"Russians furious that they are not getting new Spitfires. They consider that excuse for giving them part worn Hurricanes cannot apply to Spitfires. Mission has no knowledge of reason for this action. This lack of liaison is jeopardising present improved relations"

From Air Ministry to Mission, Moscow (22 June 1943) –

"The Russians have repeatedly complained that a proportion of the aircraft supplied have been reconditioned and it has been explained many times both in writing and orally that we are only adopting the same procedures for supplies to Russia as to our own units in all theatres.

"In supplying aircraft to our own units no distinction is made between those that are new and those that are reconditioned and we cannot modify this system in favour of the Russians. Reconditioned aircraft have as full operational life as new aircraft.

"Out of 150 Spitfires shipped to Russia 90 were new and the remaining 60 were reconditioned."

no mention of Spitfire types, but an interesting exhange of correspondence, which was probably not much help to the Moscow Mission – at least they got a quick reply though!

Gary

Wow, didn't realize they were such an ungrateful ally.

"Wow, didn't realize they were such an ungrateful ally."

Ask any sailor on the artic convoys what allies they were.

On the other hand, the Soviets felt that they were doing the bulk of the fighting and dying, and that the Allies were happy with this arrangement. They were grateful for the assistance, but they would have preferred a second front. So they had something of an attitude regarding the Western Allies. Plus, the Soviet regime under Stalin was notoriously paranoid, so I'm sure they thought that the Allies were playing them off against the Germans so that the Allies wouldn't have to fight them.

I also suspect that they were playing the 'squeaky wheel' card, figuring that those who complain the most are the most likely to get what they want. If you ask for somethign totally unreasonable, you're more likely to get something that is reasonable but more than the other guy wanted to give you.

Upset with the Spits they received but appreciated the the Airacobras through Lend-Lease. I like that!

Had a boss in the '70s, he flew for the Royal Netherlands Air Force, out of England. Flew Spitfires, but disliked the British because they gave the Dutch the worn-out planes and kept the best for themselves (quite natural, if you think about it). So the Russians may have gotten some really air-frame weary units. Like having a car with over 150,000 miles (or 240,400 kilometers [miniature miles]). It takes maintenance to keep it going. Perhaps the Russians could not be bothered all that much.

There was briefly (late '41) an RAF unit that flew Spitfires that was based in the Far North, near Murmansk. Didn't last more than a few weeks or so, but surprising to think that Brit pilots actually flew missions from Russian soil.

I thought they were hurricanes??? They must have been there for a while because I saw a documentary ages ago about how local girls were not allowed to marry British airmen etc…

Lend-lease-airforce site "Spitfires over the Kuban" – link – covers the Vb's used until mid 1943.

"Black Cross Red Star" vol 3 also covers them a bit, noting much the same – especially the similarity between the Spit & 109 that led to some confusion.

Spitfires were later used for recce and the PVO – or strategic air defence forces (there were 3 Soviet airforces – the VVS was the "tactical airforce that covered the fighting fronts, the ADD was the long range bomber force that was integrated into the VVS late in hte war, and hte PVO which defended cities and industrial areas)

Total spitfire shipments were
VB 143
LF IX 1183
HF XI 2
LF XVI 9

there may also have been a small number of PR variants

Oh and the hurricanes in Murmansk were 151 Wing RAF.

they arrived on 1 Sept 1941 and started assembling the crated a/c on 4 Sept. The first flights were on 9 Sept the first patrol was on 11 Sept.

russians started to take over hte Hurries on 13 October, and the process was complete by the 18th of October, and the Brits arrived back in hte UK in December.

See link

So not a lot of time for romance!!

Ah well you know us Brits, not slow on the uptake!!

My grandmother's brother was flying Hurricane in Murmansk. I was a teenager when he was talking about it, so I don't remember much. I as far as I remember he was piloting it for several months, then got new Yak, & was quite happy with that exchange. I've read memoirs of Pokryshkin's (one of our best aces in WWII) wingmate – he wrote that Cobras were pretty good, but in the end of the war fighters were dreaming of getting Yak-9s.

As an aside, I read an article in one of the UK national papers a few years ago that they discovered some crated up, unused Hurricanes in the Murmansk area in a warehouse, long forgotten about. And no, the national paper wasn't a red-top. I was hoping that there would be some follow up but it was a small piece on one of the inner pages. Does anyone else recall this article? With vehicle restoration in particular, I know some enthusiasts are looking to the vast areas of Eastern Europe for subject matter for bits etc. If that news report had been true, I would have thought enthusiasts would have been climbing over each other to get their hands on what would most likely be the easiest restoration jobs in history. Not being a subscriber to Flypast I haven't seen anything to support the report. Anyone?

Ade

I've spent two hours searching our web, but could not find anything. I know, that in 90s many tanks and airplanes were found, and smuggled to western collectors. I remember seeing advertisment that some companies were offering 25K USD for any information on more-or-less intact airplane or tank.Unfortunately there's still a vast blackmarket for various WWII artefacts – not tanks now, but crosses, knifes, etc….

All this smuggling involved certain bribes to several officials, that might still be in their positions.

But I found some sites/pics that might be interesting…unfortunately they're all in Russian. Anyway – check the photos…

trizna.ru/p40return.html

crash site of P-40 near Murmansk

trizna.ru/tehnika.html

photoarchive of one of our WWII historical fanclubs.(links on the right side of the page) Some airplanes and armor.

link

Boston, found in Siberia. Too damaged for restoration.

metronsk.ru/nsk/748

news and photos from the plant, that is restoring WWII airplanes. They mention Paul Allen and Tim Wallace as their clients.

link

a page about Aircobras'usage in the North…

link

interesting photo from Kubinka