"composition of the austrian forces facing bavaria in 1813" Topic

Could someone give the composition of the austrian forces facing bavaria before the bavarians joined the allies or a site to go to. I believe this corps had deutchmeister and Jordis in it. Thanks

I would see what George Nafziger has on this. He is the king of orders of battle. Seriously.

I saw him at Cold Wars in 2006 and whenever someone walked by his booth he asked them where they were from and how many people were in their group. I think he has a pretty good order of battle for Cold Wars 2006.

In his Leipzig 1813, Digby Smith gives the force as 43 Battalions and 44 squadrons under Reuss, totalling around 30 000 men.

I'd imagine a good place to start would be the Austrian force that fought alongside the Bavarians at Hanau. Digby Smith gives the following:

Division FRESNEL

Brigade HARDEGG

GzIR 14 – 1st Szeckler (2 bns)
HusR 2 – Erz Josef (6 sq)

Brigade VOLKMANN

UlR2 – Schwarzenberg (6 sq)

1 x 6pdr Cav Btty

Division BACH

IR14 – Erz Rudolph (4 bn)
IR59 – Jordis (4 bn)

Reserve Division TRAUTENBERG

Brigade KLENAU *

Gren Bn De Best (3, 4, 63)
Gren Bn Frisch (1, 12, 57)
Gren Bn Puteany (14, 49, 59)

1 x 6pr Bde Btty

Brigade v DIEMAR

Gren Bn Hromada (10, 29, 40)
Gren Bn Kramer – Lanyi? (2, 19, 33)
Gren Bn Possmann – Jurisic? (8, 22)

1 x 3 pdr Brigade Btty

Cavalry Division SPLENYI

Brigade MINUTILLO

HusR 11 – Szekler (4 sq)
HusR 9 – Frimont (6 sq)

Brigade v FLACHENFELD

KurR 6 – Liechtenstein (4 sq)
DragR 3 – Knesevic (6 sq)

1 x 6pdr Cav Btty

* Digby Smith also gives the Berger Gren Bn in this bde, but this bn is also shown at Leipzig under your namesake.

Jager Bn 3 was also at Hanau, although not shown in the OOB.

The total guns for the Austrians is given as 68, but only 28 are shown above. There seem to have been 12 pdrs present, because the Austrian artillery is said to have resupplied the Bavarian 12-pdrs at Hanau.

This only adds up to 17 bns and 32 squadrons – presumably the rest of Reuss' force went to Italy, where IR 4 Deutschmeister shows up.

Incidentally, not to hijack Weissenwolfs thread but while the subject is little-known Austrian OOB's, does anyone have one for the Austrian Army of Observation in 1806?

THe above orbat tallies with Nafziger's in his "Napoleon at Leipzig". His orbat is dated as of 15th October, and is the earliest I have seen for this particular force. It is after it was allied to the Bavarians under Frimont .

Grenadier Battalion Berger is listed there with von Trautenburg's Reserve Division. It is also listed as belonging to Weissenwolf's command in the Army of Bohemia for the Battle of Leipzig according to Digby Smith, as SauveQuiPeut mentions.

It is unlikely that Battn. Berger may have been transferred back from Frimont to Weissenwolf to serve at Leipzig on October 16-19th because it appears again in Frimont's order of battle after Hanau on 18th November, 1813.

One of those more arcane, if not earth-shattering, Napoleonic mysteries. I am pretty sure there wasn't two "Bergers" commanding grenadier battalions. Unless some battalions changed commanders at some point during the bloodletting at Leipzig?

thank you both. I was always a bit dismayed by the small amount of grenadier batts at Leipzig. Perhaps this is because of the presence of the large allied reserve of russian guard and grenadiers along with Prussians and the use of Hungarians in reserve. That is interesting regarding the members of the army of observation in 1806. Thank you again, Les

Here's an OOB for Hillers force in Italy in August 1813. I'm not sure if it's complete – I'm half-sure that the Grenadier brigade should also include the Chimani Gren Bn, which was certainly in Italy by late 1813.

link

thanks again

Looking at the 1814 OOB's in Smith and Hortouille, the 'Berger' battalion in Klenau's brigade is gone and the Moese/Mosel Gren Bn (7, 20, 56) is in its place. Possibly it should be there in 1813 as well.

And the Kirchenbetter Battalion is still unaccounted for in the OOB's…although some sources mention that Kaiser Franz's field escort was a battalion of Grenadiers. Whether this was the Kirchenbetter battalion or one of Weissenwolf's, I don't know.

It was a battalion from the army reserve that guarded the Kaiser..Obermeyer i believe along with the Sommariva Kur. I don't know the whereabouts of Kirchenbetter unless the command changed and thus a new name for the batallion. Seems unlikely as the composition would have remained. i bet Ami will have an answer of dave h, fonts of knowledge in this. I know IR 4 and others were not at Hanau so must have been facing Eugene or somewhere along with the evasive kirchenbetter. Thanks so much Sauve. regards, Les

Just to add that I dug out my copy of Tranie/ Carmigniani's Napoleon 1814- La campagne de France to check the orbat there, and it too tallies with what Sauve qui Peut suggests. And similarly, no mention of Kirchenbetter's Battalion.

I would agree that Moese probably should have appeared in the 1813 orbats in place of Berger. This makes sense.

The good news is that while my own Austrian force is being built as Frimont's Corps, I haven't gotten around to painting my grenadier battalions yet, so no hair-pulling and gnashing of teeth as I find myself having to repaint the facings on 24 grenadiers.

Found a thread on the Nap Series where some guy was looking at the same question…doesn't seem to have got a definitive answer, though.

link

I'm quite puzzled by his description of Rawkins list as containing only unnamed battalion and 19 total – in my copy of Rawkins there are three, plus Moese and Kirchenbetter for a total of 21 battalions. My copy is quite old though – did Rawkins update his Anschluss Austrian booklet at some point? Anyway, using the list I have as a base and looking at the OOB's this gives us for 1813:

WEISSENWOLF – All Leipzig 1813, France 1814

PORTNER (9/24/44)
FISCHER (11/25/54)
BERGER (15/28/47)
OKLOPSIA (17/18/21)
OBERMAYER (30/41/58) – ex-BRZEZINSKI, Russia 1812
HABINAY (32/39 )
RUBER ( ? ) – Later CALL
CZARNOTZKY ( ? )

TRAUTENBERG – Hanau 1813, France 1814 (de Best Italy 1814?)

FRISCH (1/12/57) – Hortouille 'FRIMM'
LANYI (2/19/33) – Later KRAMER
JURISSIC (8/22 ) – Later POSSMANN
HROMADA (10/29/40)
PUTEANY (14/49/59)
DE BEST (3/4/63) – shown at Mincio, Feb 1814
BERGER II ( ? )

STUTTERHEIM – Italy

WELSPERG (16/26/27)
PURCELL (31/51 )
FABER (48/52 )
CHIMANI (53/61/62)

In 1814 Digby Smith shows De Best and Puteany present at La Rothiere on 1 February, and both present at the Mincio on 8th February. So, I've gone along with Hortouille, who shows the Puteany Bn in France, but makes no mention of De Best which could therefore have been in Italy.

In Rawkins (old?) list, then, this leave five bns unaccounted for:

MOESE (or MOSEL) (7/20/56) – France 1814
KIRCHENBETTER (34/37/60) – Russia 1812

plus 3 bns with 'No Title'

I (13/38)
II (23/43)
III (35/36/42)

Two of the last four must be CZARNOTZKY and RUBER/CALL, assuming that BERGER II is in fact MOESE. If there were only 19 battalions instead of 21, the numbers fit, but we need to find out which 2 were disbanded and where their companies went…

Dear colleagues,

One is so hesitant to write.
I have been here recently taken to task for my poor spelling by one of our colleagues. Here, in this example, we have cross-translating from German and Czech to English. I beg your pardon in advance for my errors. It is extremely difficult to master the various languages, especially for one whose education was so deficient as was mine. I did attend only a military academie of second class, in a provincal city.

Here will be your grenadiere, one hopes :

Weissenwolf (8 b'on)
-- Portner (9, 24, 44)
-- Fischer (11, 25, 54) ex-Leiningen
-- Karl Berger (15, 28, 47) puis Vignette
-- Oklopsia (17, 18, 21) puis Meinders
-- Obermayer (30, 41, 58) ex- Brzežinsky (1812, Schwarzenberg)
-- Habinay (32, 39)
-- Czarnotzay (34, 37, 60) ex- Kirchenbetter (1812, Schwarzenberg)
-- Call (35, 36, 42) ex- Rüber (ex- Gregory)

Wrede/Trautenberg (7 b'on)
-- Frisch (1, 12, 57)
-- Lányi (2, 19, 33) ex- Kramer
-- de Best (3, 4, 63) ex- Erdmann (ex- Salis)
-- Moese (7, 20, 56) ex- Johann Berger (Démontant pro tem)
-- Possmann (8, 22) ex-Jurichich
-- Puteani (14, 49, 59)
-- Hromada (10, 29, 40)

Italie/Stutterheim (2 --> 4 --> 6 b'on)
-- Purcell (31, 51)
-- Faber (48, 52)
-- Chimani (53, 61, 62) (de la Hongrie)
-- Welsperg (16, 26, 27) (de la Hongrie)
-- Piret (13, 38) (1814)
-- Veyder (23, 43) (1814)

Die Osterreichisches Armee bis 1700 zur 1867
Ottenfeld u. Teuber (1867)

Die K. u. K. Armee, Band 1
Wrede (1898)

Schematismy rakouské armády 1790-1852
(s.d – 1852?)

Befreiungskrieg 1813 u. 1814, Band 2
Criste u. Wlaschütz, Kriegsarchiv (1913)

Geschichte des K. K. Infanterie-regimentes NR. 47
Amon v. Treuenfest (1882)

For the forces that were near Bayern, the list above seems good to use, in a general sense. As there was no conflict, as since the Austrians did change the forces all time, there may be no better answer to a potential force to fight the bavarois.

The Digby Smith (who I am now seeing has for some reason also the name of the Moravian family v. Pivka) is a little like a wiki, it appears. It is OK to start here, but it is not likely to be very much good for the detail.

Again, with the deepest apologies for any mistakes in my spelling. I hope that the colleagues will understand the difficulty of this task for me, and so refrain from any mockery.

- un ami

"Wrede/Trautenberg (7 b'on)
-- Frisch (1, 12, 57)
-- Lányi (2, 19, 33) ex- Kramer
-- de Best (3, 4, 63) ex- Erdmann (ex- Salis)
-- Moese (7, 20, 56) ex- Johann Berger (Démontant pro tem)
-- Possmann (8, 22) ex-Jurichich
-- Puteani (14, 49, 59)
-- Hromada (10, 29, 40) "

Bigads, give this man a cigar!

Mon ami, I for one will NEVER take you to task on your spelling. You have no need to apologize to a forum that has many members who are unable to communicate in any other language than their own. You have been one very welcome addition to the ranks here at TMP!

Thanks so much for once again being such a font of knowledge- and modest to go with it!

@Stavka

You are very understanding, and one can only thank you for your kindness.

- votre ami

Thanks Ami – thats magnificent work and ties up a load of puzzling loose ends.

The anomaly between '19' and '21' battalions is therefore down to the disbandment of 7 infantry regiments after 1809. Four of them – 13, 23, 38, 43 were reformed during 1813 and thus supplied an additional two Grenadier battalions (Piret and Veyder) for 1814.

The amusing thing is that the answer to the Kirchenbetter/Ruber mystery has been under our noses all along, on the web, in plain English. Stephen Millar's Napoleon Series article on the organisation of the Austrian line regiments gives Oberst Czarnotzky v Charlottenberg as colonel of IR60 1814-15 and Oberst Ruber v Rubersberg as colonel of IR35 1814-15. I must admit that I overlooked this source simply because Millar's Leipzig OOB on the same site doesn't identify Czarnotzky's and Ruber's divisions – and made the crap assumption that the answer wasn't to be found in his other stuff.

A valuable lesson learned…

un ami you are that rarest of men…humble and intelligent. always an honor intercting with you. sauve many thanks as well. good discussion. les

It has certainly been an interesting and productive one. Here's to many more like it in 2008…

"A valuable lesson learned…"

Quite right, some things ARE always under our noses. Much later in the day I remembered I had a copy of the Italian De Bello series book "L'Esercito Austriaco 1805/15- Fanteria" by Casareto/ Amaretti.

Sure enough, there on table 4, pp.29&30 are the Grenadier battalions with their commanders and date of accession. Karl AND Johann Berger, Kirchenbetter and later Czarnotzay.

Thank you again, dear colleagues.

In truth, I was drawn first to the study of this period exactly because it is the first era in history where the infos seem to have not been mostly lost. May be it is because of the large armies and more modern States and their organisation. May be from greater literacy.

It has been only with the internet that these scattered infos can be more easily brought to gether to answer a question. What we together find in a few hours, it will have taken 2 years to gather via the various journals of 100 years ago.

With the very best wishes for your New Years !

- votre ami