"Games Workshop" Topic

I was wondering if I should play games workshop.

Now before anything else let me tell about myself.

Many people have different priories of what a game should be. So look for the "perfect" rules or maybe miniatures. Always striving for destinations. But I look for something "deeper." This has been due that I extend my eastern ways of thought to all areas of my life, including gaming. Simply put it is about the JOURNEY NOT THE DESTINATION.

Consciousness is just "collective experiences" regardless of the term "good" or "bad" that usually gets created by "Mind." So what truly matters in a game at least to me is shared experiences amongst gamers (the having fun, etc, part)-top priory.

This would be great since many play their games and I can gather more shared experiences. Expand my "gaming awarness" (ha!) so to speak.

Now second comes the realistic part. Although this is great and all…but I'm not a millionaire. And I know gw to be pretty bad when always making a newer version of rules or miniatures…saying the others are outdated and you can't play with them.

So I was wondering what is your take on all of this. Any suggestions would be great.

Later,
Ben

I'll get my popcorn, this should be good.

I'd look for a local club and find out what they play. Then get into that (or select one of the "flavors").

GW is nice b/c it is wide-spread. It's "bad" for lots of reasons.

WRT to the cost issue, check out eBay. You can usually find someone selling stuff they no longer use.

The "bottom line" to me is picking something that you can find opponents for (and people that you WANT to be around!).

Cheers,

- Jim

The "bottom line" to me is picking something that you can find opponents for (and people that you WANT to be around!).

I think Jim has hit the nail on the head… If you find a group of good people playing GW then go for it…

Popcorn?

Shouldn't that be Mince Pies at this time of year!

As for GW, a cocaine habit may be cheaper (if not safer) LOL!

Have you ever tried to snort a Space Marine?…

Yea, but grinding a space marines has never been easier now that they are plastic. I mean the old file method too forever :)

"As for GW, a cocaine habit may be cheaper (if not safer) LOL!"

Pound for pound, its cheaper to have a major cocaine habit than buy new GW minis! :-P

What about playing GW games while on cocaine?

Seriously though, as someone already said, ebay is a good way to get GW stuff. You can get some pretty decent deals.

If you pick the right GW army you can get a force together pretty inexpensively. GW are one of the cheapest sources for miniatures out at the moment. Even if you compare GW against many historical companies the GW figs come out cheaper, so if you are concerned about cost, GW is one of the best choices.

Also as Condottiere said the basic troops stay good for a long time. If you want to upgrade to the latest minis that is all well and good but for the most part a chaos warrior will serve you through any edition of the game.

Well – here are some pros and cons, from my point of view.

I personally love the aestetics of the models and love the warhammer 40k universe. There is a ton of depth there that appeals to me because I like to see whrer they draw their influences from (from literature, history, pop culture… etc)

I like the giant cartoonish heroes covered in skulls and purity seals – but that is me, and doesn't appeal to everyone.

You type like Dances with Words. ;)

While their plastic regiment sets are rather affordable, character models are down right expensive, and I don't see them as a good value. Granted, you usually only need one – it is still very frustrating to pay around $1.50 USD for rank and file and then $15-20 for a hero.

I also think 40k is a really mediocre game, that leans more towards "not much fun". If you play with the right group of people, it can be a good time – but all too often it attracts the type of gamers I don't like to play with.

As far as fantasy goes, much of what I said above holds true here. I think Warhammer is a better game than 40k – especially when playing low magic games (which leads to warhammer ancients, which I really like).

There is more thought and strategy in planning on where you are going to position troops so they can manouver and do the most damage, rather than the game being determined int he army selection phase (like 40k) and it doesn't devolve into a line 'em up, shoot 'em down, take 'em off the board type game.

Take a look at who games in your area – see if they are people you want to play with. Also see if they'll let you in on a few games to see if you like the mechanics and style of play before sinking money into the game.

Go ebay if cost is a problem.

Tony
occultwars.com

Having come up during the 80s (when it seemed every week saw a new, horrid, RPG release) I've grown accustomed to poor rules.

I'm in your boat…just about any ruleset can be fun if the crew is right. If it's a bunch of power-hungry-momma-didn't-love-me-enough (PHMDLM) types then even the best set can be ruined.

Case in point -- a few HMGS cons ago a buddy of mine was running a Crossfire game set during the Winter War.

The terrain was, urm, snowy…with hills and loads of Soviets as well as a few BTs. So here we have, IMHO, a great ruleset and a great scenario. I forget what player it was but at one point in the game, I think it was the Finns, did something and this PHMDLM type just started to sulk and badmouth the game…for 2 hours.

Now if I was running the game I would have asked the PHMDLM type to leave and let the rest of the players enjoy the game. But my buddy is better than I am.

Case in point #2 -- At my old game group we gave a simple set of Ancients rules a shot. They're called Charge! (or something like that). The rules sucked large but EVERYONE around the table had fun pointing out this fact. The game was made fun because of it.

D.

Yes I found that (lol) what makes games good has nothing to do with the games themselves but the people who play them, despite being told otherwise. Also the painting done by different people and sharing of idea, etc.

But is ebay trustworthy too many times have I heard scams that been done on there. Any comments.

When I comment on cost though not necessary the cost of the miniatures but the future cost of a "new codex" or edition. I guess the gaming group is pretty chill (at an santa monica store-not too close). I just know not everyone is into the end all of gaming which is "having fun." So are so driven by perfection or the need to play the newest army, version of rules, becomes fun. But in reality it, to me, is an illusion of fun because there constantly striving for and never for filled so to speak.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to play a mordiem or 40k version if the people want to play. Or I can find people who never ever played anything (I found 1 who want to play horde/warmachine). Most people though who existentially play, play at a lgs, with their popular game in tow.

So it is kinda a rock and a hard place. But I guess I just have to find people similar to my line of thought rather than not…which is hard bc miniature gaming is that popular.

Any other suggestions would be great…thanks for the comments that actually helped.

-Ben

I'll join in with the suggestions that pick up a game that your local gaming group plays.

The benefits of GW games is that they do everything and it is a very easy game to buy into. Here in the UK one can 99% guarantee that one of the games people play at a local club will be a GW game.

Personally I think their minis are about the best overall, with a few exceptions. The hobby support from White Dwarf and their codexes/army books is superb for new players in terms of army building and modeling/painting. You can also buy most of the minis cheaply via ebay.

Players can also buy third party minis, such as the great Avatars of War range, to supplement one's armies.

Phil

If it's about the journey then the journey oughtta be yours… the one you choose… not the one that is 'forced' upon you.

I'm increasingly annoyed with rules from miniature companies because so much of them seem directed at guiding your purchases and play style to suite their agenda… namely to buy a lot more miniatures.
The rules are always a secondary concern.

I'm also not interested in playing with random strangers… no interest at all in tournaments or the mentality they foster. So what they're playing down at the local GW hut doesn't matter to me… I've got a puny but enthusiastic group of friends who ready and willing to play just about anything.

I'd say, find a set of rules that are independent of any miniature line… that let you design your own forces.
Then port in whatever miniatures you like…

Wanna see Imperial Guard fielding Warmachine 'jacks? Rackham Ashigaru allied with Warhammer Skaven? Dark Age pud throwers fighting against Wolfen?
Ain't gonna happen in those 'official' games…

I say throw off the yoke of tyranny by those manufacturers, find a core group of like-minded players… and go with some rules that don't give a crap what you put on the table…

Rules like Stargrunt, Song of Blades and Heroes, HOTT, Fantasy Rules!… all manage to remain fairly open to designing your own forces and using whatever background/miniatures you like.

Find what your local groups play, pick a group of fun guys, and get that game.

If it's a GW game, the advantage is it is widespread so no matter where you move in the future, or if you're in a large urban area and you just range in a different direction, you'll find people that play the game.

I'm not really clear on those who complain about the expense of miniatures. There are tons of people selling old models they don't need anymore, and in the case of GW that is sometimes a whole army. Even if you buy them full price, divide that by the amount of time you'll spend painting them and it's a pretty small amount per hour per figure. And seriously, a lot of the GW plastics sets are pretty good buys compared to what other manufacturers sell in the same scale. If you get extra plastics sets, you usually end up with enough bitz to do characters, so really, the most expensive models -- the characters -- are strictly optional. What isn't optional are the vehicles, but some armies need more than others and you just need to think of them as individual units for your army.

Play what you want … like it has been said find a game group and see what they play . Go to a local convention and try some demo's . If you ask an open question you will get such a wide variety of answers . Play what intersets you . Gw is more expensive than many . They are priced like a limited ( i.e.small) operation and change rules willy nilly . Some of thier figures rock and I like WFB and my goblin army ( never won, but they are entertaining) Some smaller companies have great rulls but limited fan base . look in your own back yard for what is there

Play what you like the look of. When I worked retail/mail order I was asked so many times for advice on which army to play. I always told people to ignore the rules, and just look at the miniatures. When you find a range that grabs you and you realise that you just have to have an army of them, that's the one for you. Remember that you will probably be assembling the models and painting them for a long time before you play with them, so if you can't get excited by them, you're going to go off the idea pretty quickly.

If you look through the entire ranges and don't get this sort of inspiration, then maybe look at Hordes/Warmachine – with its popularity these days, you won't be short of an opponent.

The rules sets don't really change all that often. The 7th edition of Warhammer was released in 2006, 23 years after the original. That averages out to a revision every 6 years or so – hardly excessive if you ask me,

As for armies and models being made obsolete, other than a couple of armies which have recently been withdrawn from tournament play* (which you will have a hard time getting the models for anyway) if you were to turn up to an event with older models, you're more likely to get staff members reminiscing about them rather than being told you can't use them! As for regular gaming with your local group, if they won't let you play with the models you have, then you probably won't enjoy playing games with them anyway…

*Guitarczy is in the US, so I am going by the most recent US tournament rules I read. Things are a bit more restrictive in the UK, but that still only applies to tournament gaming.

"The 7th edition of Warhammer was released in 2006, 23 years after the original. That averages out to a revision every 6 years or so – hardly excessive if you ask me…"

An unusual form of math they teach in Notthingham, is it?

Allen

Sure, try some GW if you feel like it; plenty of us complain about the rules and prices, but they do make some nice figures…

Download Mordheim rules for free here:

link

First of all, any game is a game. There's nothing "right" or "wrong" about the rules as rules. It's simply whether you like the way it plays and have fun playing it, or whether you don't.

Second, rules may be rules, but as the pirate said, they're more like guidelines. If you don't like a rule, change it. As long as you and your opponents agree to the change or the interpretation, what do you care what some guy in Nottingham says? Play your rules and have fun.

Thirdly, just because someone here (or anywhere else) says a game is "bad" doesn't mean it really is… it just means that the system doesn't play in a way that individual enjoys. (This is different from a rules system being "broken," which means that the rules as written don't achieve the stated goal of the system— for example, if the rules unintentionally give an unbeatable advantage to certain forces or units, making the outcome of a game boringly predictable."Bad" is opinion. "Broken" is provable fact.)

Fourthly, if you consider a game, book, or figure to be worthy of purchase, then it is worthy of purchase. If you don't, it isn't. You can buy whatever you like; no one can make you buy or not buy something. If you don't have the funds, well, that should tell you something as well. But it's not the company's fault, and the company isn't responsible for selling a product at a price you would prefer just because you would prefer it. If they can sell a product at a given price and make a profit, they have every right to do so. If they can't, they'll drop the price. (Adam Smith and all that.)

Lastly, try Warmaster. The rules are free, the figs are excellent and inexpensive, and the game is fun.

After all, the question of who makes a game is of no significance if the game itself is enjoyable.

I'd go with the "find a group you like and play what they play" approach. If you have a local gaming club (as opposed to a GW store) so much the better – you can shop the field a little for the cheaper or more appealing options.

I play and enjoy WFB and WAB, and have tried 40K. This does lead to one of the disadvantages of GW's approach. The armies are highly differentiated, with special rules and "trick" items for most lists. THis effectively means you have to know your opponents army book quite well to have a proper game. Personally I've been willing to invest the time and brainpower in WFB and WAB but not 40K.

GW = game made for people without imagination.
There is no freedom at all in the painting, buying, background, of the fig's or armies.

We decided long ago to go for generic rules, create our own world(s). We used the old Fantasy warriors rules made by Nick Lund years ago there is still an active Yahoo group.

PHMDLM???

I am not sure what that means, but I think that we had one in the WWII Eastern Front Microarmor game at Historicon last year.

The guy was playing the Soviets, and his troops were dying at 3:1 to the Germans… He was raising all kinds of stink about how bad that was, and how his troops were getting the wrong end of it (Never mind that in order for the Germans to even get a draw we had to be killing Soviets at 5:1)…

So, here was this guy winning, and he was complaining about it.

As for GW…

I have bought a lot of their LotR stuff lately, but I won't play any of their rules. I just do not like them. The LotR SBG looks like one that I might play if I had nothing better to do and someone had some decent minis to play with (Mine are being based for Hoplon/FoG)…

As far as price goes… eBay, and resin…

Regarding your doubts about ebay. I've made over 500 transactions buying & selling. Only 2 items have never turned up, a couple haven't been quite as good as they were described and I've only had one non paying buyer. By all means be cautious but it offers a much bigger marketplace than you will ever get in your FLGS clearance buckets*

*Unless your FLGS is ID Gaming, their clearance bins are directly linked to the Tardis. I have emptied the top store room twice and they still keep finding stuff. I think unsold figures pour in from different dimensions.

My only objections are the cost of their figs and some of the goof-balls that play GW games. If you don't mind the cost of the figs and can find a few decent guys to game with, go for it.

Not sure what you want to get into, word of warning 40k is getting 5th edition next year, and another dumbdown.
WHFB 7, can't comment on the rules. Don't go for horde armies (orks) or empire as core units are bought in lots of ten for 12 pounds a pop. Decent size Empire army will cost about 200+ pounds.

LOTR can be cheap if you stick to 500 point tourni armies. Though they just seem to be releasing book after book after book af………

Check out the specilaist games as the rules are free downloads and generally of better quality than the dribble coming out of the studio nowadays.

My likes are Warmaster, Epic, Battlefleet Gothic.

Ebay/Wargamers is the way to go for purchases.

We have a great group that plays 40K and have nothing but fun.

That's the key IMHO is the players. A good system helps but nothing beats a good fun opponent.

Guy

My only objections are the cost of their figs and some of the goof-balls that play GW games. If you don't mind the cost of the figs and can find a few decent guys to game with, go for it.

The trick with the cost is to build slowly. Both 40k and WFB typically start "legal" forces at 11 models, though it is possible to get that down to 7 or need as many as 40-50. Such a minimum purchase will allow exposure to the rules and the local players, and avoid breaking the bank. If you stick to the armies "in the middle" of each game (such as those represented by the current starter boxes), the likelihood of being able to cash out should the game or its players not appeal to you is fairly high.

If 40k is more attractive, look for the players involved in the huge "Apocalypse" games, as they are less likely to be tournament-minded. An Apocalypse 40k game also affords you the perfect opportunity to get in and play, since the games tend towards team play. "All I have is twenty Marines" can be a sweet sound to a team who needs an objective held.

WFB players are a little harder to discern as casual vs ultra-competitive, but if you see two large and immaculately painted forces on the table or hear about the game being at some rather odd point total, the chances the players are tournament goers is fairly high (since GW scores painting as well as performance). Those who play with significant semi-assembled or painted forces, who pine for the days when the Orcs were 'still goofy', or use Dogs of War or Chaos Dwarves, are probably more "for the fun of it all" players.

Sigh. Not going to do another revision.

WFB typically starts in the 11-21 model range, depending on whether or not there are cavalry available as "Core" troops. Ogres can get down to 7.

40k also typically starts in the 11-21 model range, with Eldar (who can field jetbikes as "core" troops) getting down to 7, and Imperial Guard requiring 40 plus a transport (or 55 without).

If you remain uncertain that you want to dive in too deeply, resist the urgings of others (like GW sales people) to buy "complete forces" unless the option offered is the "Battle for Skull Pass" WFB box (and you want to play Dwarves or Goblins), as that box is a good deal AND offers "complete forces" to play with.

"If you remain uncertain that you want to dive in too deeply, resist the urgings of others (like GW sales people) to buy "complete forces" unless the option offered is the "Battle for Skull Pass" WFB box (and you want to play Dwarves or Goblins), as that box is a good deal AND offers "complete forces" to play with."

I bought the BFSP box set and I don't play Dwarfs or Goblins. I sold the plastic minis to players who did and broke even on the two deals. This meant that I got the rulebook and the other bits 'n' pieces in the box for nothing. Its the only way to get something for nothing off GW these days! :-)

I have a huge 40k Infantry company for the IG which I built purely for asthetics, as i like the IG but hate 40k rules (even back in the day.
I find LOTR quick, fast and fun and quite cheap. I find the figures cheaper, better and nicer. Also its quite easy to get a game.
Warhammer I used to play, but I dont like the humourless direction its gon in.. i liked the tongue in cheekness it used to have.

If you like the universe and such the cheapest way to play is to go for one of the 'specialist' games. They typically use models from the other ranges, the rules are free and most importantly better (mostly dispensing with you go I go for a far better game).

The stuff along with extra rules, articles and what not is at specialist-games.com

Oh and only buy models second hand – you can often get them painted fairly well at prices below what they cost new.

The thing that I just cannot seem to understand is the disparity between the models and the games.

For the most part… The models are pretty good, and easy to convert (They do create some of the models with parts in positions that make them difficult to do more than ONE conversion with it, but if you are determined enough (and educated enough in the lore of conversion) you can do pretty much anything with their stuff), but the games themselves… other than WMA, and a few editions of Epic40K… TRAGIC…

And, with the off-brand support of Forge World… You can move those games to a completely reasonable system and have the necessary models needed (support, and specialists)… Albeit, FW is pretty expensive, and is something that you will need to plan and budget your purchases around (I have found that if I buy one Item from them that will take me a week to paint, and then put it down my painting stack a few Items… It will be a half-year before I get to it at least… When it is finished… THEN I buy a new model…

And… eBay…

That has been said more times than I can count above. eBay is essentially responsible for the incredibly huge number of LotR minis that I managed to get so that I can use the figures with Hoplon (where, as I have said: you need about 200 to 500 minis for an army). I have managed now to get my percentage down to 35% on the cost of the LotR mini v the list price (Of course, I spent about 95% of last years discretionary funds upon them too… I have to admit that I got a bit sick in my buying frenzy.. Unable to pass up a good deal, even though I might be able to tell that an even better one might show up later… )…

Anyway, morale of the story: eBay will get you a decent sized force for anywhere from 20% to 70% off of list price (As I stated… Mine has been a total of a 65% discount)… So, Hard to go wrong there.

The other part about "looking for the players…

Until last september… I would have NEVER darkened the table of a WH or WAB game… But, I discovered some guys who were some pretty decent players at Conquest. I would consider playing with them anytime (of course, there were also a couple of WHF players who looked to be the sort to steer clear of at all costs…

As stated… It definitely is the journey… Just depends upon what type of journey you want to take.

The six monthly shareholders report for GW should be out by now, anybody seen it yet?
Three of my local GW stores have all closed in the last 5 months.

I don't know… I have to get them second hand… but… Since my family and I are on speaking terms again… and they no longer discount what used to be pretty good financial advice I think that they may buy some GW stock (on the advice that they will be profiting from the two hobbit movies).

I know that GW is on the verge of a state-change of some sort.

I do not think it an outright "Collapse", but it will definitely see some drastic spikes in its share strength.

I just know that if the family does buy shares, that I will get to be the delegate to the Annual Share-holder's Meeting. At which point… I can begin raising points about why some of the decisions seem to be so wonky, and why they make the guys who should be the "nice" face of GW into the bad guys by making them the ones who have to deliver all of the strong-arm BS to the guys who are just trying to be fans…

While I agree that they are just trying to protect their IP… They don't seem to get that pretty soon… all they will have are a few "words" that represent their "IP", while everything else will be able to be duplicated in some manner or another without violation… It is a case of Harley-Davidson trying to sue Honda over the Sound of their V-Twin "America-Cruiser" that they brought out in the early 90's: It is called the Shadow VTX (Used to be called the Shadow AC). Harley tried to sue them because they said that it sounded too much like a Harley… The court's said: Unless you can show that they intentionally set out to create a sound pattern that was "Identical" (not similar) to the Harley (and "Which Harley???") then Harley had no case.

GW is going to wind up in that same boat. They are going to be left with a lot of hollow stories about some vapid Universe in the far future (of which WHFB is a part, if you have followed the story carefully), and all of the models will be available in the same manner that you can get "Not-Planet of the Apes" figures or "Not-Alien or Not-Predator" figures. There are already scads of Proxies out there… and there limitation of "their" figures in their tournaments is part of that IP protection… It is going to see their market share limited quite a bit.

I just wish that they would hurry up and go the route of AT-43, or the Confrontation pre-paints already.

If you are going to limit the games to your own figures… Then you may as well do away with the imposition of having to do anything but buy the game in order to play.

While their figures can be used with other games… Not everyone who wants to play their "official" games wants to have to go to the trouble to buy, assemble and paint their figures.

And… Think about 40K apocalypse.. If they had "Unit Packs" where you could get a platoon of Space Marines for $20, or a Company of Imperial Guard for $100… I would do that…

Their vision is myopic to say the least.

So no figures for the 6 monthly shareholders report yet then?

"GW are one of the cheapest sources for miniatures out at the moment."

No, they are not.

" Even if you compare GW against many historical companies the GW figs come out cheaper, so if you are concerned about cost, GW is one of the best choices."

FYI:

Hat Industries makes excellent 1/72 scale WW1 and WW2 figures in soft plastic. Thanks to Krylon spray primer, soft plastic figures now can be painted easily with acryllic paints, and those annoying sloughing off incidents are a thing of the past.

Regarding pricing points, Hat Industries for example sells a single box of WW2 Romanian Infantry which contains 96 figures including 4 x heavy machine gun teams, 4 x light machine gun teams, 4 x 60mm Brandt light mortar teams, 4 x flamethrower equipped sappers, 4 x NCOs with sub-machine guns, 4 x officers, and enough riflemen in useful poses with fixed bayonets for four (4) complete rifle companies for RAPID FIRE! ( a set of fst-play WW2 rules for battalion level actions).

Hat Industries also produces the Armorfast line of 1/72 scale AFVs in 1/72 scale. $11.00 USD gets you two identical easy-to-assemble 1/72 scale tanks or armoured vehicles. IMHO vastly more gaming bang for your gaming buck!

GW does have tolerable price points on their Lord of the Rings plastics, but that IMHO is about it. If you choose to do WHFB I would strongly advise you to build up your rank and file from the LotR series of figures rebased to WHFB standards, as you're going to pay top dollar prices for the characters and specialist heavy supports such as monsters and artillery.

If you want an alternative approach, you can look into other manufacturers of figures if the game group you hook up with is interested in friendly games as opposed to rigid rules of league play that prohibit non-GW figures and models from use.

Old Glory makes affordable 28mm fantasy figures in metal for example, to say nothing of their historical figure lines if you chose to field a human army, and with the Old Glory Army membership deal, you pay a $50 USD membership fee yearly, get a free figure each month in the mail, and get 40% off of your purchases direct from Old Glory. Seriously good bang for your wargaming buck IMHO!

Hope this helps!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

BlackWidowPilot, remember that the scale between warhammer and LOTR is quite different, Strider would look like a child when compared to a warhammer orc.

As for starting out, the greatest one has to be PATH TO GLORY rules from the games workshop site, where players form small warbands that roll for what the get in the warband. I have played warhammer for eight years, and the last two have seen a rapid decline in both models and fluff. The old warhammer that my gaming buddies and I cherished had great backround full of sacrifices and bloodshed. The magazine was read for extra experemental army lists and conversion advice, not adds for newer, "Better" models.

*Steps off of soapbox*

Does anyone know of a non-GW miniature company that makes norse/ chaos marauder-ish models? I need them to be human(Preferably) also, beastmen-ish models would be greatly appreciated

"BlackWidowPilot, remember that the scale between warhammer and LOTR is quite different, Strider would look like a child when compared to a warhammer orc."

Cat'n N,

you're correct about that, however, one supposes that it *is* fantasy gaming, so one might be able to forgive such differences if the basing were consistent..

I used to read White Barf regularly for the modeling ideas and background stories aeons ago when the 'zine was written for people over 16 years of age. Alas, GW chose to water things down so an even younger crowd could digest the contents, and no matter how many snazzy pictures are now found in each issue, this old dawg of war(gaming) just can't bring himself to buy an issue of what was once a really interesting and creative monthly magazine that had a usefulness beyond the limits of the Warhammer IP.

C'est la guerre…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

My interest in WD began to wane when I realized that I had seen the last article for Runequest pass me by only six months after they picked up the license for it.

There have been some good suggestions in answer to your post ben :).
But IMHO also some bad ones.
I do not think cocaine is safer, cheaper may be!
But not not safer lol.
Looking for a local club is a good Idea,
Make sure it is an independent one.
This is in order to make sure any attempts of brainwashing can not go unchallenged by a 3rd party.

"Steps on to the soapbox"

I have never found a miniatures company more expensive than GW!
There are one or two that are about the same price.
GW plastic miniatures are more expensive than most other companys metal miniatures and there metal minatures are quite often half plastic.
If you want to find miniatures cheaper than GW, Just look on the manufacturers directories.
Also try colonel marbles miniatures masterworks.
His army showcases are fantastic!!
I except I could be Wrong so any one that can make a list of more than 3 companys that are more expensive than GW please let me know.

After all that you must all think I hate GW.
hmmm Its time to say some nice things about them.

Mordheim is a good system I liked it.

WH 40k Rogue trader (First edition)(ISBN 1-869893 23 9)
is IMHO the best sci-fi miniature game system ever written.
Only bother with this one, all the editions after this are dross. So keep an eye out on e-bay.

IMHO WFB first edition and second edition were fantastic in there time, but unfinished.
Third edition is the definitive version (ISBN 1-869893 29 8)

The background to the warhammer universe is second to none I can do nothing but highly recommend it.

Final Point

You can use any miniatures in any game as long as the Base size is correct and the model represents the race and armament reasonably.
(You could use counters, but thats missing the point of miniature wargaming).
If any person tells you that any company has the policy of only letting you play a game with models that they have produced, They must be Wrong!
NO company would officially say this let alone put that in writing because that would be Restrictive Practice.

Toll

There have been some good suggestions in answer to your post ben :).
But IMHO also some bad ones.
I do not think cocaine is safer, cheaper may be!
But not not safer lol.
Looking for a local club is a good Idea,
Make sure it is an independent one.
This is in order to make sure any attempts of brainwashing can not go unchallenged by a 3rd party.

"Steps on to the soapbox"

I have never found a miniatures company more expensive than GW!
There are one or two that are about the same price.
GW plastic miniatures are more expensive than most other companys metal miniatures and there metal minatures are quite often half plastic.
If you want to find miniatures cheaper than GW, Just look on the manufacturers directories.
Also try colonel marbles miniatures masterworks.
His army showcases are fantastic!!
I except I could be Wrong so any one that can make a list of more than 3 companys that are more expensive than GW please let me know.

After all that you must all think I hate GW.
hmmm Its time to say some nice things about them.

Mordheim is a good system I liked it.

WH 40k Rogue trader (First edition)(ISBN 1-869893 23 9)
is IMHO the best sci-fi miniature game system ever written.
Only bother with this one, all the editions after this are dross. So keep an eye out on e-bay.

IMHO WFB first edition and second edition were fantastic in there time, but unfinished.
Third edition is the definitive version (ISBN 1-869893 29 8)

The background to the warhammer universe is second to none I can do nothing but highly recommend it.

Final Point

You can use any miniatures in any game as long as the Base size is correct and the model represents the race and armament reasonably.
(You could use counters, but thats missing the point of miniature wargaming).
If any person tells you that any company has the policy of only letting you play a game with models that they have produced, They must be Wrong!
NO company would officially say this let alone put that in writing because that would be Restrictive Practice.

Toll

I have another complaint about GW, they dont have an ACW line let alone one for the French and Indian war. And lets face it, they have not made any good WW1 or WW2 minis, I have had it with them.

"I have another complaint about GW, they dont have an ACW line let alone one for the French and Indian war. And lets face it, they have not made any good WW1 or WW2 minis, I have had it with them."

*Perry Miniatures* (as in "Perry Twins") are preparing to release their first *plastic* 28mm figure line, ACW figures.

So stop complaining about GW…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net
(I know that Perry Miniature is not GW, but what they hey, ya gotta have some fun!)

>"they have not made any good WW1 or WW2 minis,"

Actually some of their 40K figs are chunky WW1 minis with extra spikes and skulls.

Go to your local gaming club, it must be independent, ask if they run Leagues. Campaigns and what sort of systems they play.
Pick one that you like the sound of, concpt etc, then go for it.

GW do make the most expensive models in the 28mm Fantasy market with the exception of a few 'boutique' manufacturers like Freebooter et al who make much nicer and better quality character models than GW so they are worth the cost.

eBay is your friend if you want to pick up cheap models.

Other manufacturers offer excellent quality models at half the price of GW so definitely look around.

Recently I replaced all my static GW Dwarves with the cheaper and better Westwind metal Dwarves.
The Internet has opened up a whoile new world of choice instead of the pre-Internet days when there was only what was available on the high street.

Let your fingers do the walking…

For rule sets, GW is geared toward the 10 -15 year old age bracket.
If you want something more then you need to look at other rulesets where the rules are actually updated and improved instead of randomly rehashed like the GW editions in Warhammer.
GW are a popular option because of their size and historically they were a good option but in the words of their own CEO they have stagnated and now they are losing ground rapidly.

As a rules writing entity they dropped the ball a long time ago.
Nothing of quality has come out of GW rules writing for over a decade with the possible exception of the simple LotR system.
No thanks.
Their army books all have significant power level fluctuations regardless of the edition and they are expensive in every dept.

However if that is all your opponents play in your area, then it's better than not playing.