"French water bottles and canteens - did they use 'em?" Topic

Hi Gents,

I just have a quick question I hope you can help me with -would the typical French infantryman be tramping across a battlefield with his water bottle at his left side, and a canteen strapped to the back of his pack? Or where these generally left behind before the fighting began? I'm wondering if I should add these details to my figures, or leave them out. You don't really see them in many illustrations, and most figure lines don't include them, so I'm curious if they would be a realistic touch or not.

Thanks, as always, for any thoughts,
Bob

During the Napoleonic period, the French never had a 'regulation' canteen. It was up to the individual to procure his own container. Gourds, bottles and small wooden kegs were some of the things used. These would only have been carried on campaign so should be totally appropriate to depict on troops on campaign. In battle, the pack would be the first thing put dowm, if anything. It would have been sensible and no great encumbrance to keep ones drinking vessel on. They were worn on cords over the shoulder by the way.

I think that if you wanted an authentic 'campaign' look then your French infantry would be in greatcoats and laden down with a myriad of odd canteens, bread, spare shoes etc.

I think there tends to be a 'wargamer' style of look to figures that we all seem to accept and recognise as campaign dress witch usually includes overalls, shako covers and some sort of canteen. How actually authentic this is, is open to some debate.

I would imagine that the infantry would have at least worn a canteen of some description on the battle field.

Perhaps our colleague will not show his report on this topic, so I shall have the honor to show it :

link

- un ami

I would have thought stolen/spoils form the battlefield e.g. other nationas water bottles, glass or teracotta containers wouold be common also food, dont forget bags of food I think in one book I have they also carried bread on strings. Also spare shoes, non-regulation blankets etc

the worlds your oyster with this

One very important reason to keep your supply of water with you was the salty/bitter nature of a musket round.
As you bit said round open in the firing process, some gunpowder would end up in your mouth.
Many memoirs mention the raging thirst of any infantryman who'd fired several volleys.A canteen with water was a vital piece of equipment.
And then there's alcohol.
It was a common practice to have a canteen etc filled with rum, brandy etc.
I don't think many soldiers would trust such a valued commodity to be left unmolested if out of its owners's reach.
donald

Thanks, guys! So I suppose the addition of, at the very least. a drinking gourd would be fine for all of them, and perhaps a canteen (or other odd bit of equipment) on some, but not others.

By the way, Un Ami, that was a very intriguing link you provided, thank you! Those contemporary illustrations were very compelling evidence of the use/existance of a regularly issued item.

There's been some discussion about how much was carried or dumped before a battle. The experienced soldier knew that if he dumped his kit, he would be unlikely to see it again. Victory meant pursuing the enemy or camping beyond his lines. Defeat meant little chance to pick things up as you withdrew or ran away. (As recently as the Falklands, one battalion commander told his men to drop their rucksacks before a particular battle. After some argument this was done. They did not see their equipment again until the fighting was over and even then some kit never reappeared.) It would be totally accurate to depict a grognard festooned with pack etc even in the heat of battle.

The postings of Un Ami are always interesting and he offers information in a co-operative spirit.

However, I have read in a respected history that water canisters were not provided for the Egyptian Campaign, and this was a great problem to the army.

Perhaps there is a difference between the pre-revolution army and the republican army.

As a member of the re-created Royal Deuxpont, I have one of these lovely petit bidon. They are a sweet little nipper of thirst to get that black powder out of your throat! Vinegar was issued out each day by the sergeants from a grand bidon. The vinegar was healthful, and I'm sure also cut the taste of the frequently nasty water.

I think I know what prompted your question, Bob. That thing you see strapped to the back of the knapsack on many miniatures is not a canteen, it's a wooden bowl or tin mess pan. Sometimes they're pretty big, if a group shares for cooking.

Yes, rations would be issued to the mess unit and cooked communally in a large tin pan. I should remember the name of the pan, but I'm drawing a blank. BTW, I have many contemporary illustrations of French solats on the march festooned with all manner of rations dangling and stuck on the bayonet. I was not with the group for an event when everyone did this for a march through Williamsburg. Quite a treat for the surprised public! Would have loved to be in on that one.

Lord B, and Artslave – yep that's exactly what was getting me wondering.. :)

marmite

early style (to may be 1808)
picture

later style (from may be 1809)
picture

from 1830's 0r 1840's, but similar to "later style"
picture

- votre ami

Voila! Tres bon, un ami. Merci.

There you go, Inkbiz! Un Ami provides a great deal of the most precise scholarship we find on this site; and, as before, your own enquiries bring out loads of related observations. One interesting complication of the issue of "Parade" or "Campaign" figures for gaming is highlighted in this matter of the <<petit bidon>> (and indeed the <<Marmite>>). With "Parade" figures – however inaccurate they might be for anything but parades, despite Le Marechal Davout* – at least their uniformity may be seen as appropriate and we accept the convention that the metal figures are simply representative of units of a particular type. In the case of "Campaign"/"Combat" figures, however, as several members have posted above, with regard to both variety of equipments and permutations/combinations of such items, not to mention variation of poses, there's no end to the possibilities; and that way, madness lies. Maybe you should produce a range of tiny accessories, with locating pins, to add to your figures….

* "It is not possible to be too well dressed when the cannons roar" (he apparently always wore his full-dress General's uniform in action).

@Robert le Diable

"and that way, madness lies."

Thank you very much for your kind comments, dear colleague.

My associates did discuss the miniatures to be as in parade dress or more as if real soldats.

We decided that it woud be well if could all agree, so that each régiment and armée would be like the others.

We did try voting , but the results were not conclusive.

We did try analysis and discussion, but the results were not conclusive.

Then we did open more champagne. Some one decided that the miniatures would be in their finest uniformes. But I remember only the excellent champagne and not how the decision was reached.

But I did have to get the semi-exception for my carabiniers à cheval (1810 and later), who will wear white only on state occasions, and the light blue uniforme other wise.

:-)

- votre ami

See "Ochoin" above, mon ami: "and then there's alcohol". For some years I have had the entire Cavalerie de la Garde remaining patiently in reserve awaiting their being painted (Grenadiers a Cheval, and a few Chasseurs a Cheval only, having been completed), and among those the two regiments of Carabiniers, who I believe considered themselves <<a la suite de la Garde>> although they were usually deployed with the Cavalerie Lourde, that is, Line Cuirassiers. I assure you that, if ever I get around to painting them, they will appear resplendently in copper cuirasses and the most brilliant white tunics ever seen outside of Operetta. In the 15mm Russian Army which is rather more complete, a fine sight is provided by ten regiments of Kurassiers, all on dark horses and all with black-enamelled breastplates, and all in white tunics. The contrast – nay, the Chiaroscuro (!) – is striking. A Votre Sante!

R le D.

Apropos les Kurassiers Russes: sauf que les Trompettes, c'est a dire.

Robert, and Un Ami;
The nature of your discussion reminds me of once reading (although I do not recall where) of how, even on the bloody, muddy Corunna Retreat the British Guards were one of the very few regiments to maintain strict order on the march, and keep their uniforms in decidedly less unkempt condition, as compared to their line counterparts.

Perhaps it would be a a nice compromise, then, if line regiments were represented in more 'campaign' dress, and guard units more 'parade' dress? Who knows, maybe it would be a fair representation of the way things were.

Best,
Bob

Yes, that's a thought I've heard/read/had before (with one further elaboration; for veteran Line units, the scruffier the better! Obviously, when we're thinking of individual castings with a variety of poses and accoutrements, it would be the taste of the individual collector/gamer which determined the composition of each unit from Parade uniforms, all the same pose, thro' every permutation all the way to Retreat to Corunna and even Retraite de Moscou. With smaller scales and strips of figures, perhaps not two but three or four varieties; Parade Dress for both Guard and Line, Campaign Dress for Line, and "Distressed", for those who like complications at every level) and it's a good one at a visual level, and there's no real advantage to an opponent in any game since everyone recognises the Guards anyway.

With regard to Corunna, I believe it was during the last stages of the retreat as the regiments were descending the heights later occupied by Soult, in order to ascend those nearer to La Coruna itself, that Moore noticed both the size (i.e. numbers of men in the ranks) and the order of some of the approaching British, and said "That will be the Guards". Mind you, it was the Highlanders that really did for the French……..