""Will Historicon be moved from Lancaster?" Part II" Topic

Interesting that the average income is $60,000 a year and we complain about the entrance fee. Hell I have been saying double it and I would still come, except for one other fact. The damn host is a dive and the worst place I have ever atttended a convention. The two times I have attended I ended up sick for a week afterwards, yeah I have fond memories of the place. Until the con moves from that place I wont be back in this life time.

nobody's begging you.

The concern some have expressed about growth is misplaced.

Clearly there would be advantages to most hobbyists if HMGS EAST succeeded in growing the hobby. It would be easier to get into games. There would tend to be more and better products, etc.

However, most attenders at HM gaming conventions arrive by automobile. Am I the only one who noticed the cost of gasoline lately? And as for the industry, we had the Chinese Communist tin crisis three years ago. And in the past year there has been a corresponding lead crisis. The casting metal I use now costs 3 times as much as it did 5 years ago.

That, and the general economic climate (consumer confidence isn't at an all time high) has put a crimp on the industry. Even general game conventions like ORIGINS snd GENCON are reported to have lost attendance. I can't vouch for this. I have enough trouble figuring out the HMGS EAST stats. But I understand GENCON SOCAL went down the tubes. And I don't know of any HMGS Chapters enjoying rapid growth in convention attendance.

As for HISTORICON, I keep hearing that there is no room at the Inn. But while we schedule more games every year, I still see (and photograph) lots of empty tables lots of the time. I did a photo essay of HISTORICON 05 because James Mattes had closed registration for new games saying that we had no room. The place was full of empty tables. And as recently as HISTORICON 07 I took a picture of some Florida gamers playing pulp fiction games next to my SCW game on Friday night and noticed later that there were rows of empty tables behind the Pulp game.

Attendance isn't growing. Many manufacturers and dealers are getting out to taking on day jobs. The danger of outgrowing the Host belongs in the realms of fantasy, not historical gaming.

But, if a better, cheaper, and more accessible location can be found. great.

Pat Condray

With the ever constant rising cost of gasoline attending Eastern U.S. cons without hotel shuttle service to a big city airport is no longer possible for me. It is now far cheaper to fly booking a flight far in advance than driving.

Historicon has moved in the past. I remember when it was in Carolton near DC and then Camp Hill in PA.

If the BoD deems that this is the best for the show, they will move. They will do what is best for the show.

Clearly there would be advantages to most hobbyists if HMGS EAST succeeded in growing the hobby. It would be easier to get into games.

Really?

My experiences are just the opposite.
At Cold Wars, or Fall In, you can pretty much walk up and be able to play in a good deal of the games, without pre-registering or getting a ticket.

At Historicon, there is usually a slim chance of getting a ticket if you did not pre-reg, and an even slimmer chance of walking up. (Note: there are some GMs that "reserve" a couple of walk-up slots for their games, but these are in the minority).

At a con like GenCon or Origins, if you expect to play in any games, pre-registration is Mandatory.

So, I'm not sure I follow the logic?
To me more attendees = More competition to get into games.

When I wrote of growing the hobby I wasn't specifically talking about getting into games at HISTORICON. Growth would have to do with the number of HM gamers and would be reflected not only in greater attendance at the big three EAST conventions, but in local clubs and shops. Presumably the more gamers, the easier to get together for a game.

On the other hand, the HISTORICON problem is a bit of a mystery. Pete Panzeri has been mentioning the attendance peak in 1997, but I think the year we almost hit 3,600 (though James Mattes professes to deny it because he didn't generate the numbers) was in 1998, the year Pete himself distributed tons of PELS at ORIGINS. At that time we were running probably 300-400 games (I'd have to dig out old programs in the storage shed to be sure.)

We now seem to have over 600 listed games, and a bit over 3,000 gamers.

From what I recall off hand about the mysterious 7,000 who never returned reason number one was overcrowding. Reason number two was "same old stuff." Not having enough games didn't seem to win or place. My own take has been that we mainly go to conventions to play, shop, and hang out with fellow wargamers. We do that every year two or three times at EAST conventions, and I usually hit three or four others. If you want something different in that sense (big name lecturers, hot and cold running chambermaids, or whatever) you probably don't want to attend HMGS conventions in the first place. And you get more variety in retail sales of HM and related merchandise at these shows (chiefly HISTORICON) than anywhere else with the possible exception of the big UK "buy but don't play" conventions.

There were pressures other than crowding which forced down attendance after HISTORICON 98. But the mechanism of the changes is a bit unclear. We did drop between, I think, 2000 and 2001 because the distribution of the printed PEL ceased. But before I'd credit overcrowding as being a problem I'd like to see an HISTORICON at which a higher proportion of tables were in use for gaming.

Pat

A west coast perspective: I, personally, have yet to attend a Historicon though several local gamers have. From their perspectives I would consider Historicon the Mecca of US Historical gaming and, before reading this thread, I questioned attending based on what I heard about the venue through personal acquaintances who did attend as well as the international hobby press. ("Stygian Gloom" springs to mind)

My vote, as a potential first time attendee: By all means, upgrade the venue but keep mindful of the cost. A better venue that maintains affordability can draw me across three thousand miles.

Hope that helps.

I thought we beat this sucker to death many times already but here goes. I'm with Pat as usual. I'm from NOVAG. You know, Fall-In shut down one of our two annual conventions. Yeah, we bitched, we moaned, but we're getting back into doing a quality local con. Barrage is a nice little con in January not too far from us. We can play games at Game Parlor and Eagle and Empire.Seems like there are more places to play games lately. I attend at least two of the three HMGS east cons each year and there is a nice con south of here in Raleigh Durham each year. I definitely try not to miss attending Cold Wars. I may miss Historicon or just day trip it. A lot of the above activity is because we belong to a organization like HMGS-East and the spin off effect and the friendships made and kept under the umbrella.
I don't think we should expand to have more dealers or a larger flea market.We should expand to play GAMES! Games are our raison d'etre.
Gaming and fellowship. Remember your first days as a wargamer. If somebody took you under their wing, great. Many of us were "lonely wargamers". Getting an occaisional game here or there with a friend or at a hobby shop. Trying to get and order figures with such a dismal hit or miss system at obtaining anything. Waiting anxiously for the Courier, or MWAN, or Miniature Wargames to show up.
Now we all make $60,000 a year. Hot Dog! We have some disposable income. Great. How do we spend it?
Do we want quality or quantity? I like the Host. I don't often stay there because of the cost. I stay offsite at smaller hotels and motels fairly close by. Me I just need a bed at night and a place to bathe. I don't require the Hilton like some of our brethern or Paris Hilton for that matter. Let's please make any changes with our eyes open and with maximum consent and keep up the quality cons we do have.
Last point- Pete or James answer this. If Historicon goes, do we lose Cold Wars?

I will add that the as far as the Host concerned, the chief complaint is that the bathrooms need to be cleaned more regularly, though if some of the attendees were neater this wouldn't be such an issue. Another valid point is that some of the smaller rooms are overcrowded and HOT when there are empty tables in the bigger rooms. My last complaint about the Host is that navigating the place is a real pain, especially if you're running a game: multiple levels with endless steps – it's like an Escher print!

I do want to make a positive closing note. The quality of the food for sale on-site has greatly improved in my opinion over several years ago, while the price doesn't seem to have gone up too much. I don't know how or why that is, but it's a good thing!

Some random thoughts. It seems that both HMGS-South and HMGS-Midwest have gone the route of more expensive, but nicer convention venues. Any comments from those two organizations concerning attendance/ dealer area traffic etc.? From random comments on forums I get the sense that attendance has not increased dramatically for Little Wars or Recon/Hurricon. I attended the last two Little Wars and had a great time there. The facility is wonderful, but the attendance seemed small for being in a large metro area (Chicago). For me, getting out of the Host to a nicer facility would make for a better convention experience, but may not necessarily increase attendance (at least in the short-term)--which is fine by me. I would like to hear from HMGS-Midwest and HMGS-South concerning the financials of their conventions which could be helpful in HMGS-East.

Who but historical wargamers would go to the bathroom, all over the floor, and then complain about the conditions? And then blame the Host for not having a 24 hour emerg Haz-Mat team there to clean the facilities?

Ralph

I cannot speak for HMGS-South as I am just a vendor and not on the BoD. However, the drop in attendance at the new location for the first Recon was due in part to the show being held on Mother's Day weekend.

I did attend Hurricon in 2006 and liked the new site. No problems with setting up. I was unable to attend in Sept 2007 due to medical problems. The report by my staff was positive in regards to the crowd.

"I thought we beat this sucker to death many times already but here goes."

We did. We have done it this week. And we will again. Bet on it.

As someone who has reverted to lonely gamer status, is it the attendees who average 60K, or Gamners? Maybe I should go to Historicon and camp out at the entrance with my tin cup… (Hm, anyone done a figure for that "I went blind, and it's not why you think?")

But, growing the hobby would be a good thing. Not sure if that is possible, it is a reasonably intelletual pursuit in an increasingly anti-intelectual society. The comments Yesterday about HS clubs, wonderful. Those are the future of our hobby. Which means there have to be local and regional cons for those people to grow through while they save (or climb the corporate ladder) to make the Haj.

My FLGS- isn't; (The other one Tom); It has been taken over by a bunch of Fantasy obsessed power gamers and clicky games.

IIRC, Little Wars is trapped; the local/regional base just won't turn out, they are saving for Cold Wars and HCon. So what should be a "regional" con can't seem to draw beyond the local base, a lot of whom want to day trip. And the board is suffering burn out. And a couple of local events like the SYW Association draw off attendance.

One of my main reasons for attending a con is to actually see and heft the merchandise. More real vendors good, estores and hobby shops not reping unserved lines, bad.

Well, just some random thoughts here.

I'm going to take this thread out back and shoot it.

There are some very thoughtful e-mails concerning moving from the Lancaster Host and I hope the thread continues with thoughtful comments. We need to think out carefully and creatively the options and not just assume that it has "all already been discussed/thought out" which I do not believe is really the case.

In terms of lodging around Lancaster, almost all the hotels with lower room costs than the Host have very poor ratings on tripadvisor site. As someone that travels a lot, I do not think I have seen a city with such a uniformly poorly rated set of hotels.

I attended my first HMGS con in the 1980's at the Penn Harris Inn. Since then I have only missed a few Historicons (and Cold Wars).

Change for the sake of change can be very dangerous. We are very fortunate to have Historicon, Cold Wars and Fall-In. My thanks go out the people who volunteer to put on these shows. It is important that we listen to them about the nuts and bolts of the convention 'buisness' in order to make an informed decision. My problem is with some of their credibility. Not to pick on Mr. Mattes but the HMGS cons need a different spokesperson. He lost my respect and vote a couple of years ago. In this I am not a minority. How can we make an informed decision without credible information?

As for games … I also see many, many unused tables at the cons. It seems that there are more every year. This is suprising from a convention that we are led to believe is growing or out-growing our venue. Maybe it is just perception on my part.

As an old timer I also have noticed the change in the types of games that are being 'hosted.' No longer a 'Historical Miniature" convention, we have a variety of Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Auto-Racing and Pulp gaming. While I know these are popular … and often done on beautiful terrain (or race tracks) … They don't fit the Historical Gaming definition too well. Bringing poor Duke all the way to Pa. to host a Lord of the Rings game or some fantasy pirate thing always struck me as odd. Maybe we need to re-think who we are as a society before we look for new locations. If the membership wants HMGS-East to take this direction then so be it. In the past our strength was our dedicated gamers who mixed their passion for history, historical miniatures and the social aspect of gaming. The conventions, for me, were a showcase of this passion with some great shopping! I think we have driffed over the years. Maybe that is good, maybe not.

Mike B.

I'm new to gaming conventions, but it seems to me that any comparisons between HMGS cons and cons like Gencon and Origins would be like comparing apples and oranges, and thus we can extrapolate very little from Gencon/Origins trends.

Unless we see a drastic trend in society, those gaming conventions will most likely always be much bigger than any historical gaming conventions since they are related to SciFi/Fantasy games and are not limited to miniatures.

Those conventions contain customizable card gaming, role-playing gaming, video gaming, anime films, costume contests, miniature painting and sculpture contests, gaming tournaments etc. besides just miniature war gaming. With all that going on, you are bound to draw a much bigger crowd!

I'm not sure we will ever have enough draw to reach SciFi/Fantasy con proportions. . .

And honestly, who here really cares? As long as there still exists a population of dedicated historical war gamers who strive to put on quality, fun games for themselves and others, are interested in learning and sharing the history behind their historical games, and come together during the year at conventions does it matter if there are 120 or 12,000 of us at a single venue?

In reply to mbsparta's commentary about non-historical games at Historicon, etc., I agree he has a point. The problem is that society in general seems to have an ever-decreasing interest in military subjects in whatever form they take, be it military modeling, wargaming, reenacting, or just taking a military history course in college.

For the population under 50, the vast majority have had no military experiences at all, are seperated from it on a day-to-day basis, and are more likely to have negative feelings toward military subjects. This results in fewer and fewer individuals we can "recruit" to this hobby for strictly historical miniatures gaming.

So as I see it, we have a choice, expand our scope or die out.

It seems to me that you need to first decide what Historicon is going to be. If it is to function as a large regional convention then leave it where it is. If it is to function as a national convention then move it.

From my perspective, here in the Seattle area, it functions as a de facto national convention. If you wish to attract people from all over the US then the present location stinks. It is too difficult to reach by any other means than auto. And, the hotel is too shabby. If the organizers want this to be hub of American wargaming then move the cite.

1. Move it closer to a major airport so it can be serviced by shuttles.
2. Improve the quality of the accommodations.
3. Provided larger halls so gaming can be more centralized. The Balkanization of gaming at the Host is unacceptable.
4. Provide closer proximity and greater access between dealers and gamers. At a national convention, the name of the game is dealers. This is a tactile hobby. People want to see and feel the product. Sending gamers to some building outside the main gaming area is unacceptable.
5. Encourage gamers to improve the quality of their gaming tables. In 05 there was a prizes for the best tables. Games abounded with good looking tables. In 07 I did not hear of such a prize and the quality of the gaming tables had clearly deteriorated. I saw better tables at Enfilade in Seattle than I saw at Historicon 07.
6. The site doesn't have to be a hotel. It can be a small convention center serviced by a number of nearby hotels.

What you want to do is provide gamers with a good experience. This will attract more gamers. This, in turn, will spread fixed costs across an increasing number of gamers.

But first you have to decide what you want Historicon to be. If you want it to service gamers who can drive to the convention then stay where you are. If you want to open it up to a greater number of gamers, then move.

Rich

Rich

HISTORICON is what it is. It is the largest HM oriented convention in the western hemisphere, and perhaps the de facto "National" convention whatever thate means.

If you decide to call it the "National", "International", "Gallactic" or Intgergalactic" Convention, and try to put it on roller skates or a Space Shuttle you won't have to worry about defintions. It will die a quick death.

As for the inconvenience of not being near an airport, most of us, however far away, especially if we are vendors or GMs arrive by automobile. So free parking counts for infinitely more than a nearby runway.

I can see that becoming increasingly a problem. Combinations of flying, car rental, and shipping may have to be explored. But I would expect that to be accompanied by attendance losses like those we hear about for GENCON and ORIGINS, some of whose clientele is less encumbered than our own.

If Seattle is a great place to have a National Convention, take the problem up with NHMGS.

Pat Condray

I have not been there since 1998, I will not go back until they move it. Reasons, parking ,food ,hotel rooms and cleaness. Mike Adams P.S. I stayed off site and ate offsite.

The parking is free. That in itself is unusual for convention centers. But if you prefer to pay for parking let me recommend ORIGINS.

You didn't say where you at offsite. Chris Scott wrote in MINNIATURE WARGAMES 295 concerning the food at the Host:

The caterers couldn't do enough to pleas, and sliced beef to order just as thick as youw anted it. The tasty real beef burgers were quadruple the size of ours for a fraction of the price. This was no captive audience rip off, just service above profit."

Of course, he was comparing to the UK where cooking is notorious and he benfitted from the rate of exchange. Still it was much better than it has been in the past. And hardly a reason to avoid a wargame convention-provided you are interested in such.

As for hotel rooms, at wargame conventions there should be enough going on that you don't spend much time in the sleeping room awake. But tastes differ. If you travel 1,000 miles to hang round in a four star hotel room HISTORICON is obviously not for you.

Pat. I will not get into a arguement over this ,but you have to think about the family that goes with you. I guess I will go to Littlewars in April Mike Adams

Stay on the west coast, don't meddle in our east conventions.

I do not live on the west coast. I live in the midwest. That is the facts. Happy New Year Mike Adams