"6mm en masse ideas desperately needed" Topic

Hi all

For a number of years now I have been collecting 6mm Napoleonics to solo campaign using mass formations. !st I began collecting Irregular, then Adler. I hate painting and once I got married I could not justify the money I was spending to get painters to paint my figures for me. Recently I did some research into using paper as seen in my blog entries here:

link

After producing a number of divisions of paper figures, I started to miss using lead again and so spent some time researching lead miniatures again as seen in my blog entries here:

link

Now I am really confused. I still can't get them painted fast enough especially since I hate painting so much. I am now looking at blocks of balsa such as used in the new Kreigspiel tactical game.

Question:
I Am wanting to get battalion level gaming where a battalion looks like a battalion not 12 figures in a line. I use Empire V rules with a few changes and so I need to see whole battalions but lots and lots of them.
Does anyone else out there have any other ideas I can look into?

Thanks in advance for all your ideas.

Regards
David – Ace
wardepot.blogspot.com

Hi David, I wonder whether the answer might lie in a hybrid between 2 of your ideas.
The cheapest and least time consuming ones.

Balsa blocks seem so uninspiring.
But what if .. You begin wiht the balsa blocks, and stick the paper armies on their front and rear.

Done right you might get the best of both worlds.
The paper pictures would provide the impression of many men.
The shape of the blocks would provide bulk for their formations (and help them to stand upright).

I'm not sure whether it would be necessary to put pictures on the tops and sides of the blocks. Sides might be effective, but perhaps the tops can simplet be colour (and arm of service coded).

I think it would look good when viewed or photographed from a low elevation. While from high elevation, the units would look like battle map elements.

The main diversion from traditional blocks is that you would require diferent depths of block for your horse and foot.

Let me know what you think.
And the best of luck.

Steve Holmes

Hm, some interesting ideas, although I do have to say… if you don't like painting miniatures, posting on The Miniatures Page forums is slightly misleading:)

I say use lead figures, and just undercoat them; red for brits, blue for french, green for russians. Then just give them a dark wash over each figure. You could always go in and give them a dab of other colors and some flags if you wanted to later, but…

Anyway, just an idea.

Have you tried the painting method described on the Baccus site? I find it very fast, I can usually paint up around 40 strips in a weekend. Another alternative might be 2mm. You can buy painted 2mm armies VERY cheaply and they might look better than balsa blocks (I think they look great but this is a matter of opinion. A option in line with your balsa block meathod is to use the Kriegspiel rules sold by Too Fat Lardies, it's pieces are meant to be blocks.

Mount your figures in rows on a base . If they have deep bases , cut them with heavy shears or scissors so they stand so close together its embarrassing .

Spray the lot flat black .

Paint the front , back . sides, and heads .

Alternately , Irregular miniatures does read made formation blocks

Are you sure you don't like the 6mm paper soldiers? That idea seems so clean, quick and cheap. I thought you got some really good results, judging from the photos at your blog site. Admittedly, I do remember that you said you'd gotten really unhappy with the paper soldiers. In spite of that, I think you came up with a really good idea, even though you're not thrilled with it yourself.

I'm painting some 6mm Adler Napoleonics (for DBN rules) at the moment, and am trying to find some quick painting techniques that look good myself. I don't mind painting that much, but I have very limited time and energy for my hobby these days. In fact, I probably would have given serious consideration to paper soldiers, had I not bought some metal figures already.

Please let us know what you eventually decide. I for one would be quite interested.

Hehe.. check out my little fellows. They're very close to commercial casting, and they're tiny!

:)
Bob

Interesting, I recently made some paper ACW figures to use while playtesting a set of rules I'm working on.

Scott Washburn
paperterrain.com

Veldor has the right idea. Base the figures in black and mount them on their bases, in multiple ranks. Paint the front of the front rank, back of the back rank, both sides and the heads, headgear.

Alternatively, base coat in the primary color (say white for French line), a bit of blue on the sleeves, black for the shako, boots and pack. dab of paint for cuffs and flesh, brown musket and silver bayonet. None of this has to be done carefully. Then black ink wash the figure

The problem is that they're 2 dimensional – flat, I like what Steve Holmes 11 recommended. To make the glueing easier you could redesign them so they attached at the top instead of the feet, and include the hat top, making them so they had THREE sides, front, top, back. Fold & glue to balsa strips of the right width and colour the sides.

Gluing paper to balsa sucks, it comes off really easy.

Then you must be using metal glue for paper.

OK. Been sitting on this one for a couple of years. They exist.

We have blocks of 5mm troops for the Napoleonic Period. Some are in 2 ranks and others in 3. Cav is single ranked. Arty is cast , with crew, on a base and there are single and split trail guns. They are the old Minifigs blocks. In recent times (recent=in the last 8 years) they were sold only by a firm in the UK that sold computer software "Follow the Eagle" (IIRC).

Is there a market for these, still?

Also, Inkbitz has some awesome looking figs, in 3 scales. He'll need to do more to have a "range", but they look promising for just this type of gaming.

Tom Dye
GFI

I remember those . they looked pretty good in the photo's I saw .

I hope you do bring them back . Being baseless they look so realistic on the tabletop .

"My" favorite motivation for the use of these blocks can be found in the Osbrey Elite series on the Austrian Grenadier, plates entitled "Battalion and division masses-1807" and "Battalion skirmishing".

Each block could be a company!

Tom Dye
GFI

I was wondering along similar lines , maybe the war of 1812. relativley small affairs where each Company is represented .

Tom – are there any photos of these old block figures out there? Or even a list of types with measurements? I'm thinking along the same lines as you are, I think.

Cheers,

Christopher

I'd love to see them. My stands of 6mm Irregulars are all companies.

David – Ace
wardepot.blogspot.com
milsims.blogspot.com

IIRC, the old Minifigs infantry blocks included a 24 'figure' unit in three ranks of eight files. The block was approximately 1/2" wide. Back in the early 1970's I owned a couple of sample blocks. Interestingly, the Napoleonic rules our club was using ('Napoleonic Warfare' by Stephen & Julian Reed) used 25mm figures each on a 1/2" frontage with a figure:man scale of 1:25. Obviously, my idea at the time was to use the Minifigs blocks instead of 25mm figures and have the table representation at 1:1. The idea never got off the block since we all switched to 15mm. Pity.

- Allan

OK. How would you like to purchase these? Packs of 12 blocks?

There are:

2 rank troops (appox 3/4 inch long)
3 rank troops (appox 1/2 in.)
Cav (assorted types) all about 3/4 in long
Arty (Split and single pole trail) has crew cast on appox 3/4 in square

Limber (Horses cast in strip of 2 that fit into a slot) Maybe an inch long total

Mounted generals Cast without a base. "My" biggest pain as no surface area to glue to a metal base. Could use putty to secure it, though, I guess….

Suggestions for the crowd is welcome!

Best,
Tom Dye
GFI

I think we all need some pics. Can you get some arranged?

My biggest concern would be cost. That is one of the reasons why I looked at paper and balsa in the 1st place. When you are trying to put together the whole OOB for Waterloo where each french battalion has 6 stands to represent the 6 companies, if it's not cheaper than Irregular then it's back to square 1.

I do think the precast blocks are a great idea though. I did look into the Irregular ones. My only concern was that the different troops types seem to have different widths. I can understand the different between 2 and 3 rank but that really is all you need. 2 ranks for British and allies, 3 ranks at about 2/3 the width of the others for French, Russian, Austrian and Prussian.

David – Ace
wardepot.blogspot.com
milsims.blogspot.com

David,
It is called a hobby for a reason. You are not expected to field the entire Napoleonic Army at 1 to 1 at any scale in a weekend. I have been building Armies for over 35 years. I still have some holes in the units. Enjoy the ride and go with the flow. Buy, paint or have painted what you can when you can and network with others in the area who have similar interests. An example is I am working on ACW OOB for Gettysburg in 40mm using JRIII something like 1500 figures. I am slowly building the units but get side tracked here and there with new projects. The Hobby is the building of the armies. It is a journey not a destination.
VR
James Mattes

Ace,

What I have started experimenting with, for paper miniatures, it to use a left/right side view (or mirror-image side view) and instead of mounting them straight back-to-front, I mount them at a 45 degree angle. This gives them a 2.5D look from the direct front, back, and side views.

Dale

Back to those old Minifigs for a minute . Wasn't there a regimental piece with some Drummers, mounted Officer and a couple of Flag wavers ?

I used triangular wooden blocks with paper Napoleonics figures in 15mm scale. The wide part of the triangle goes at the bottom for stability like this: /\ so that you have rows of figures. You could do the same thing for the 6mm figs, be even easier with the sticky labels.

I don't paint much myself anymore; arthritis makes it hard to hold a brush for long periods of time.

Eric

Re: the old Minifigs blocks: If the 3-rank blocks are about 1/2" wide, then a 6-coy bn would only take up 3", for a ground scale of 1" = 50 yards. Even doubling up (2 blocks pr coy), perhaps to get a better balance between the "look" of the length and width, would give a fairly workable 1" = 25 yards. Perhaps even a 3-4 block bn would be workable for 1" = 100 yards bigger games?

What I'm having a hard time envisioning is the look of the actual block. How many files per block? Bacchus 6mm have a frontage of 4 files per 20mm (the same as 10mm figures), so I'm guessing that the block is quite literally a "block" and is 3 files wide by 3 files deep?

Tom, do you think that these would work for map games (kriegsspiel style) as well?

Cheers,

Christopher

PS – I *did* just decide to concentrate on small skirmish projects due to lack of time! *sigh*

squirmydad 22 Nov 2007 1:36 p.m. PST
"I used triangular wooden blocks with paper Napoleonics figures in 15mm scale. The wide part of the triangle goes at the bottom for stability like this: /\ so that you have rows of figures. You could do the same thing for the 6mm figs, be even easier with the sticky labels. "

=> Great idea Squirmy. Got any pics? A big problem with the paper is the white background. And how so you make them 'weighty' enough to handle well. And what do you do about ranks? Or do you use ranks?

Regards, David – Ace
wardepot.blogspot.com
milsims.blogspot.com

I started Napoleonics 20 years ago as a student. I fell in love with the pictures of Peter Gilder's "In the Grand Manner". I couldn't afford 25/28mm so I opted for 15mm and painted for years, finally gathering up about 6,000 figures and 6,000 castings. I knew it was getting silly with ever increasing board lengths required.
I decided to do it all over with professionally painted Adlers. I ended up with over 12,000. I haven't even bothered to base the last few thousand Russians because I can't find any system of basing that will let me put the figures out in a meaningful yet playable way.
Ideas on a postcard are always welcome. There are probably lots of lessons in there for gamers.

@Ace/David
> A big problem with the paper is the white background.

You didn't direct this at me, but…

I don't use the white background. I use a light green color for the grass, which as a background pattern extends up about halfway to the calf, and a light blue color for the rest of the background. For larger figures, I use gradients to show grass and sky colors, but with 6mm figures it is just not visible enough to make the effort. Note: these background colors have to be light.

I also tend to use a 2 pixel black outline around the figure, which makes the figures pop more. It is easy to do with Fireworks (not sure what your tool is).

> And how so you make them 'weighty' enough to handle well.

There are several ways.

1. If you like/don't mind the shine, use a laminate over the paper. (This will also help retard any fading due to time or wear.) This will essentially double the thickness and weight of the figure(s).

2. I use a hot glue gun to glue the figures together. This glue sets faster and weighs more than Elmer's white glue.

3. As most of the weight should be at the bottom, put it in the base. If you use foamcore board, for example, as a base, it tends to be rather light (and the wrong color). So you can print out colored paper bases and hot glue them to the foamcore base, again adding weight.

> And what do you do about ranks? Or do you use ranks?

Absolutely. Given that our perspective is not board-level, but rather much higher and behind, simply gluing one rank of figures 1/3 of the way back from the front of the base and a second rank 2/3rds of the way gives that illusion of depth. If you hold the base up to your eye level it doesn't look like ranks as you cannot see through the front rank, but again, from the gamer's view at about 2' to 3' above and behind, I think they look great.

One little trick that I have done, which I think looks nice, is that I trim a little V notch between each musket (most of my figures are in the 'shouldered arms' or 'march attack' positions). This breaks the straight line across the top of the row of figures and adds tremendously to looking like "individual figures" despite the fact that it is really a single wall of figures. The great thing is, despite all the extra effort, you don't need to do it to every figure before you can start to use them. Simply print them out as you have been and then every so often, while you are watching TV, snip a batch of figures. Eventually you will get them all. :)

Tell me what forums you are on that allow you to post pictures (or send me your email) and I will upload some examples in 6mm and larger scale.

Dale

Yeah Dale. Bring it on man. I still am open to paper as my irregular project is blowing the budget already.

Juke add a comment on my blog or email me at
milsims at iprimus . com . au

Thanks.

Regards, David – Ace
wardepot.blogspot.com
milsims.blogspot.com

These are some of Altefritz's 15mm paper Napoleonics, specifically the New Brunswickers, attached to wood. I printed on regular bright paper and glued fronts and backs onto a section of pine that had been cut with a 15-degree bevel in it so the troops lean back a little bit and are easy to see that way. I left a little gap on the top so I could put labels or drill holes and attach condition markers or flags, etc.

Putting together the troops in the picture took less than an hour, including ripping down the 2x4 pine-stock on my table saw.

picture

That's pretty cool Squirmy. I have been thinking the same sort of system using a triangle lenght of 6mm balsa from the local hobby shop. I still might try that out sometime soon and post results on the blog.

Hmmmm. The pondering continues …

Regards, David – Ace
wardepot.blogspot.com
milsims.blogspot.com

Pine is cheaper than balsa, heavier too. :)

Hey all

Updated my blog with a full infantry division. Will go try the paper with green background now.

Regards, David – Ace
wardepot.blogspot.com
milsims.blogspot.com