| jnmpoppie | 14 Nov 2007 9:27 p.m. PST |
I read recently that the Germans used Panther (PzKw V) turrets as AT bunkers in the Hitler line in 1944. Does anyone know if any armored units were equipped with Panthers during the Italian campaign? |
 Dan Cyr  | 14 Nov 2007 9:49 p.m. PST |
Yes, they were used at Anizo. Dan |
 Gungnir | 15 Nov 2007 12:35 a.m. PST |
Axis History shows a pic of one in Italy (bottom pic): link |
| Gungnir | 15 Nov 2007 12:38 a.m. PST |
Another one, in Cassino: link |
| Alxbates | 15 Nov 2007 2:19 a.m. PST |
And here I clicked on the thread thinking you meant the big cats, not the tanks. I suppose I'm not much of a WW2 guy… |
| Gungnir | 15 Nov 2007 4:08 a.m. PST |
I might be able to find you a pic from the Milano zoo if you're desperate, Alex. |
| Martin Rapier | 15 Nov 2007 4:11 a.m. PST |
Yes, the Allies first encounters with Panthers were in Italy. The first battalion was originally employed independantly in a similar manner to a Tiger Bn, but all the pz divs went onto the 44 OB with Panther battalions. |
| Rudysnelson | 15 Nov 2007 8:29 a.m. PST |
As pointed out the Herman Goering Division had Panthers at Anzio and elsewhere. The German use in Italy of concrete bunkers with turrets can be seen in a lot of pictures. |
| Kelly Armstrong | 15 Nov 2007 10:04 a.m. PST |
HG had no Panthers at Anzio. They were pretty well beat up at the start of the battle. The only panther unit present was a battalion of the 4th Panzer Regiment (or was it the 4th panzer division?) and that was normally attached to the 26th Panzer Division. I think the 26th eventually absorbed the battalion much later. See the Heersguppe.com website or the D. Jentz books. Or the Osprey Anzio book. Or Carlos D'este book. |
| rigmarole | 15 Nov 2007 10:16 a.m. PST |
The Panthers indeed belonged to I./Pz. Rgt. 4. These were (early) Ausf. A's with Zimmerit and the turret side tactical numbers were in red with white outline. This unit was originally III./Pz. Rgt. 4 which in May 1943 become redesignated I./Rgt. 4 (the original I./Rgt. 4 was seconded to s.Pz.Abt. 507). It was then sent to Italy in February 1944 with a complement of 76 Panthers. |
| Pertti | 15 Nov 2007 11:39 a.m. PST |
Alxbates & Gungnir: every now and then, they find panther (or tiger, or lion) tracks (footprints) in woods and forests in Italy, and even sometimes see them. They supposedly are animals escaped from circuses. |
| GrotGnome | 15 Nov 2007 12:04 p.m. PST |
The FIRST Panthers to see combat in Italy arrived in Feb. 1944 and saw action around Anzioas an independant unit(I./Pz Rgt.4). This Panther battalion was renamed to I./Pz Rgt. 26 and absorbed by 26 PD in aug 1944- the first Panthers 26PD had on strength. There were NO Panthers at Salerno with either 26 PD or HG Division or Cassino – HG didn't get any Panthers until they arrived in Russia in June 1944. The very first Panthers physically in Italy belonged to 1st SS LSSAH (Aug. 1943)but they were only there for refitting and training prior to returning to Germany in Oct 1943, they did not fight in Italy. "Germany's Panther Tank" by Thomas Jentz |
| The GM | 15 Nov 2007 12:31 p.m. PST |
For good visuals, pick up "Panther Tank Variants in Color" (by Fedorowicz). It's got the Turret bunker and some other cool (though mostly never developed) items in it. It also has well-done paintings of Panthers from everywhere, including Italy. Don. |
| Kelly Armstrong | 15 Nov 2007 1:00 p.m. PST |
There were also a few Elefants and Nashorns at Anzio in the heavy JgPz battalions. US have no 76mm armed Shermans, and the Brits have not a single 17lbr of any sort. So the M10 is the biggest thing the US and Brits (Brits had some M10) have to shoot at the Panthers, Elefants, and Tigers. Really makes you want to be German in any tabletop armor wargame. Historically, the Elefants get stuck in the mud constantly, the Nashorns are marginal as there were already plenty of 88's on the battlefield, and the Panthers still tended to get stuck and break down. Good ol' Mk III's and IV's shouldered the load for all the other low utility German tanks. |
| Chris PzTp | 15 Nov 2007 5:11 p.m. PST |
By the way, here's a panther turret bunker that is now part of a museum in Poland. I can't tell how much of it is original. link |
| Minondas | 16 Nov 2007 12:59 p.m. PST |
Hmm, you made me all excited, Chris. Pictures in your link are from Gerstfeldhoehe, Germany. |
| Chris PzTp | 16 Nov 2007 2:03 p.m. PST |
Very sorry for the missinformation! I think I must have gotten to it via a Polish site. |
 Mserafin | 16 Nov 2007 4:15 p.m. PST |
Interesting – the diagram suggests there was no mechanism to train the turret. Was that the case with these bunkers? It would seem to seriously degrade their utility. |
| Jaeger | 18 Nov 2007 9:48 p.m. PST |
Hand crank within the turret itself? |
| Ditto Tango 2 1 | 19 Nov 2007 6:58 a.m. PST |
Mserafin, it also does not show the stop run back cam and as well, the diagram shows a turret top ventilator and a commander cupola. The photos of this panzerturm and all others I have seen show a single periscope in a hatch instead of a cupola and no ventilator. I'm sure there's a hand crank.  |
| Rudysnelson | 19 Nov 2007 7:12 a.m. PST |
Since we still had hand cracks in M60s in the 1960s and 1970s, I am sure that Tim is right. they had hand cranks. |
| Rudysnelson | 26 Nov 2007 8:27 a.m. PST |
From the US Army Pictorialrecord book. Pg 293. Photos of German portable pillboxes. They were steel and resembled a Panther turret. They were considered impregnable except to a direct hit by a large cannon. Pg 337. In Southern France, German tank Turrets are used as pillboxes. This shows an Pzr h turret with a HMG and a 20mm gun. The height is very low with it being only the height between a man's knee and waist. A very hard target to hit. |
