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"de Saxe 'Legion' Uniforms" Topic


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1,910 hits since 23 Oct 2007
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Comments or corrections?

Steve1 Inactive Member23 Oct 2007 1:13 p.m. PST

Are there any images of the good Comtes' imagined uniform? If so could you post the link or reference please.

Personal logo Der Alte Fritz Sponsoring Member of TMP23 Oct 2007 1:53 p.m. PST

There are some pictures in the Funcken Lace Wars book. Maybe Ioannis has a copy and could post the pics on his web site. He's like Mikey (in the cereal commercial) -- he's got everything (pictures). evil grin

Personal logo andygamer Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member23 Oct 2007 2:39 p.m. PST

Saxe's Dragoons:
link
link

link

Saxe's Uhlans (some sources, like the Lace Wars, show them as Negroes:
link

link

Paris Guard Inactive Member24 Oct 2007 11:01 a.m. PST

Question 1: How was the "Legion" organized when formed, or in the War of the Austrian Succession? I understand they were a three-squadron dragoon regiment (Schonberg or Schomberg) during the Seven Years War, and became Regiment #17 of that arm at the end of the war. Their uniform was adopted by the entire Dragoon arm after the 7YW.

Question #2: How does one start a topic on this site? I would like to ask some questions about various 7YW formations.

GdeP

Personal logo Der Alte Fritz Sponsoring Member of TMP24 Oct 2007 11:36 a.m. PST

Go to the main board of say "18th Century Discussion" etc and on the left hand side of the page, look for a grey bar that is labeled "Start A New Topic". click this and a new window will open. You can type in a title for your topic (try to keep the title short) and then type in your message. After you submit, you have the opportunity to cross post your message to other boards.

Paris Guard Inactive Member24 Oct 2007 11:46 a.m. PST

You are a great help – as usual! – Alte Fritz.

GdeP

abdul666lw Inactive Member24 Oct 2007 1:28 p.m. PST

Wow! Cruelly *disappointed* – I expected from the 'subject' to find -at last!- some info. on the intended uniform for the 'daydreamed'de Saxe Legion…

I doubt the 'Volontaires de Saxe' ('noble' Uhlans -Lithuanian Tatars except at the 1st company of Blacks- each followed by a 'servant' Pacolet -later Dragon- on the model of the knightly 'lance') were ever called a 'Legion'. All French texts quote the unit as a 'regiment'. According to Sapin-Lignieres'encyclopedic 'Les Troupes Legeres de l'Ancien Regime: les Corsaires du Roi de l'Armée de Terre', by de Saxe time even the 'mixed' units of light troops (Fisher, Grassin, Lamorliere, Kermellec..) were called 'regiments'. The unit was quoted as 'a regiment of light cavalry entitled "Saxe-Volontaires" in the royal ordonnance creating it in 1743.
Most of the (mixed) "Legions" of light troops were formed between 1750 and (mainly)1763 by converging several units. The Legion Royale was thus constituted in 1758. The regiment 'Volontaires Etrangers de Clermont-Prince became 'Legion de Condé' only in 1766.

A peculiarity of de Saxe's "own" unit was to be abundly provided with 'amusettes' – one of the Marechal's pet ideas- probably crewed by the Dragoons: but I know no mention of their use in war, only during exercices and parades at Chambord.

Now, if somebody has any information about the indication de Saxe (if this posthumous book is not apocryphal) gave for the uniform of his 'daydreamed' Legion… The wearing of some form of helmet (and the use of large pavises and half-pikes – also a sheepskin whig: as to-day British lawyers?) apart, I find nothing about it.
At €39, the modern reedition certainly lacks the original plates (the advert. mention only 'text'). As for having access to a copy of the 1st edition!!!

Regards,
Jean-Louis

abdul666lw Inactive Member24 Oct 2007 1:44 p.m. PST

As for the initial composition of Saxe-Volontaires, the 1743 described the "Regiment <>s constituted of 6 'brigades' [ here ± equivalent to double companies in 'ordinary' terms] of 160 men under a rotmeister, with 64 Volontaires with lance, mailshirt and mace in Tartar dress, and 64 Pacolets also called 'dragons'".
Note that the total Volontaires + Pacolets = 128 men for a brigade of 160? I suppose the complement = noncoms, officers, musicians, workers such as farriers???
Seemingly neither the mailshirt nor the mace were ever worn… too bad for the 'look' of this already spectacular unit!

Now, if some World-Builder wants to introduce de Saxe's 'planned' mixed Legion in the army of his /her (not great hope of a 'her') Imagi-Nation, let this person add a regiment of cavalry with half of it in Tartar dress with mailshirt!

Regards,
Jean-Louis

Steve1 Inactive Member24 Oct 2007 2:14 p.m. PST

To you all – thanks as ever for the help and advice.
Jean-Louis – it was indeed the 'daydreamed' legion I was asking about. Sadly I doubt I could afford a 1st edition (there is a hardback printed in 1957 on Amazon at £257).

abdul666lw Inactive Member27 Oct 2007 2:29 a.m. PST

eastridingmilitia,
found a short passage from "Reveries on the Art of War" at: link
I quote here the part relevant to uniforms:
"Article 2: Of Clothing Troops
Our dress is not only expensive, but inconvenient, no part of it being made to answer the end required. The love of appearance prevails over the regard due to health, which is one of the grand points demanding our attention.
<>
In the field, the hair is a filthy ornament for a soldier, and after once the rainy season is set in, his head can hardly be ever dry. His clothes don't serve to cover his body, and in regard to his feet, they with stockings and shoes rot in a manner together, not having wherewithal to change; and provided he has, it can be of little signification, because presently afterward, he must be in the same condition again; thus, as may be naturally supposed, he is soon sent to the hospital. White garters are only fit for a review, and spoil in washing; they are also inconvenient, hurtful, of no real use, and very expensive. The hat soon loses its shape, is not strong enough to resist the rains and hard usage of a campaign, but presently wears out; and if a man, overpowered perhaps by fatigue, lies down, it falls off his head, so that sleeping with it uncovered and exposed to dews or bad weather, he is the day following in a fever.

I would have a soldier wear his hair short, and be furnished with a small wig either grey or black and made of Spanish lambskin, which he should put on in bad weather. This wig will resemble the natural head of hair so well, as to render it almost impossible to distinguish the difference, will fit extremely well, when properly made, cost but about twenty pence, and last during his whole life. It will be also very warm, prevent colds and fluxes, and give quite a good air.
Instead of the hat, I would recommend a HELMET made after the Roman model, which will be no heavier, be far from inconvenient, protect the head against the stroke of a saber, and appear extremely ornamental.
In regard to his clothing, he should have a WAISTCOAT somewhat larger than common with a small one under it in the nature of a short doublet and a Turkish cloak with a hood to it. These cloaks cover a man completely and don't contain above two ells and a half of cloth; consequently, are both light and cheap."

I guess that by fair weather the cloak was worn rolled acroos the breast?

No illo, unfortunately.
Jean-Louis

Steve1 Inactive Member27 Oct 2007 12:54 p.m. PST

Jean-Louis
Thank you for quoting the passage. From it, it will be possible to form a composite view of the uniform.
Steve

abdul666lw Inactive Member28 Oct 2007 8:38 a.m. PST

At the level of the torso, there would be some similarity with the early British light infantry in Canada, withe the sleeves of the (discarded) [great]coat sewed to the waistcoat. Yet this later would be slightly larger, with the shorter one worn below. At least that's how I visually 'translate' the text.

Jean-Louis

Luke Mulder Inactive Member28 Oct 2007 6:46 p.m. PST

I once converted several figures to de Saxe troops. I think that there is a lot of room here for interpretation. Also, I have heard that Dover Books is going to republish the Reveries.

abdul666lw Inactive Member30 Oct 2007 5:04 a.m. PST

Luke!
Do you have a blog or website to post these fascinating conversions? If noy yet, what about opening your personal blog? It's free and *easy*: with time and a little practice (you can always edit your previous posts to correct / improve them), even one as totally computer-challenged and cyber-illiterate as I am could do it:
link


Or are you a member (or would you become one) of either the Old_School_Wargaming link
or SocDaisy link Yahoo groups? There is still a *lot* of free spave in their 'Photos' directories to post your pics.

Now, since you already converted minis to represent an a-historical, if not fictitious unit, what about, in the Good Old (School Wargaming) tradition of Grant and Young, designing your own Lace Wars mythical Duchy or Electorate?
A few dozens of such already are known on the web:
TMP link
(indeed I have now 46 links to such 18th C. Imagi-Nations on my blog:
tinyurl.com/yokjv2 )

Then you can develop the genealogy of the ruling family, the Court plot, involve your Country in a campaign… No need to do, or even aim at from the start, something as complex as Tony Bath's 'Hyboria' or H. Hyde's 'Wars of Falstenian Succession'.

As soon as you have a name for your Country and a few preliminary ideas about its features, you could do worse than join the 'Emperor vs Elector' collective blog I presented here some time ago:
TMP link
and which brings together Lace Wars 'mythical rulers' from several continents in an enjoyable interplay:
TMP link

No need to have a blog of your own -but the owner of the campaigb blog will create an IP for you: then you could post photos of your painted minis (original rather than historical, preferably: e.g. these 'erroneous' "de Saxe Legionaries") as an illustration of some diplomatic missive or 'State Proclamation'.
Believe me, "it works": I joined EvE as soon as I had a name for 'my Imagi-Nation', before having my own blog. Thus you could share your creations -historically accurate or ± mythical- with all those interested.

To "Eastridingmilitia" (& everybody else, of course): David of the SYW uniforms templates: nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.com
endvisages to try his hand at a likely (yet uncertain, of course) 'reconstitution' (better: 'personal interpretation of the printed description of') de Saxe 'planned' uniforms.


Cheers,
Jean-Louis

Luke Mulder Inactive Member30 Oct 2007 1:31 p.m. PST

Hello Jean-Louis. I have joined the Old School site. The fictional armies are certainly a great pursuit which combine history, art, and imagination. I sometimes view Grant as a sort of Tolkien for the eighteenth century. Time permitting, someday perhaps I will post some pictures from my armies. Right now (short of time as usual), I am preparing for the next battle Royale with my two sons, one of whom is desperately trying to depose the "Old Wildgraf."

abdul666lw Inactive Member30 Oct 2007 4:36 p.m. PST

Hello Luke: enjoyable promise (no, *no* shades of the Cranberries – the 'cow-boys' in the video were French actors, BTW)!
You had more luck with your sons than I had with my daughter: despite my armies were all 'Amazons' of various types, she prefered video games! What did Wells write about 'the most intelligent type of girls'?
Cheers,
Jean-Louis

abdul666lw Inactive Member31 Oct 2007 2:40 a.m. PST

Concerning the original uniform of de Saxe's Uhlans:
Sapin-Ligneres in ‘Les Troupes Legeres de l'Ancien Regime: les Corsaires du Roi de l'Armée de Terre' quotes (following Lienhart & Humbert) the 1st uniform (1743-1745) of the Saxe-Volontaires as: 'A simare or long tunic Tartar-fashion, green lined red, with very short slit sleeves edged in red; a red waistcoat; a mailshirt; a green baggy trouser with a red scalloped stripe on the side and edged red in the lower extremity; a red belt-sach; hungarian boots; a pointed green over red cap; a small pouch in natural leather.'

The illo 4 p.39 of the Funcken's 'Lace Wars' vol.2 is an attempt of visualization, but the basis of the cap should be red, I'm not certain the upper part would be hanging, and chiefly the mailshirt is missing!

Does someone know of another picture?
Thanks in advance,
Jean-Louis

abdul666lw Inactive Member09 Nov 2007 4:57 p.m. PST

Re. the original (or merely initially intended) uniform of the Saxe-Volontaries (*NOT*of the daydreamed Legion of later times of de Saxe's life & military designs), this article on the Polish-Lithuanian army by the War of Polish succession:
link
indicates that Lithuanians fielded 'Petyhoria' equivalent to Polish 'Pancerni', i.e. mailed 'medium' cavalry. Since de Saxe's Uhlans were said to be Lithuanian, they would wear a recent type of Pancerni mail shirt (though, seemingly, without the coiff). From the side, its sleeves would appear between the very short sleeves of the overall 'Simare' and the long sleeves of the 'waist'.

abdul666lw Inactive Member17 Nov 2007 10:50 a.m. PST

Just posted a summary of the description of the various de Saxe's ± 'mythical' uniforms (Uhlans with mailshirt, 'daydreamed' legion) on my blog:
link

abdul666lw Inactive Member15 Sep 2008 3:57 a.m. PST

A thread on this very topic started on SOCDAISY:
link
message #14805 sept 15, "08

abdul666lw Inactive Member06 Nov 2008 3:24 p.m. PST

@ Luke Mulder: Hello Luke,
a fellow wargamer wants to give his (fictional) Duchy an army based on the "Reveries":
strackenz.blogspot.com

I'm sure he would appreciate your input.
How is your 'The Wargame' project faring? The 'Companion' is not disappointing, imho.
Cheers,
Jean-Louis

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