"Numidian Imitation Legionaries" Topic

Hey,

Odd question, but I was wondering if anyone could tell me what kind of tracks are included in the 1/72 Italeri M4 Sherman kit? 1 piece wrap around or individually linked sections?

Thanks!
Brian

Does anyone have any information or pictures of these guys?

I'm starting work on my Punic Numidians and have enough for everyone except these chaps. The trained infantry have a picture in a WRG book – however I can find no reliable reference or images for the later Imitation Legionaries though.

Any help would be appreciated.

Any info on their imitation Shermans would also be helpful :-)

Never count out The Bug.

I think there's likely to be about the same level of information for both.

You could try the forum at romanarmy.com, they'll have someone who can tell you if there's really anything more too it than Numidian imaginary legionaries

Well, they're far from imaginary. Suetonius credits them to King Juba: ten "legions'" worth. And Tactitus describes troops under the Moorish (same people, next kingdom over) rebel leader Tacfarinas as picked men armed in Roman fashion, and organized into regular "battalions" with standards.

But specifics of their appreance: you won't find any. I wouldn't go too far to make them "exotic". Numidia and Mauretania were well Hellenized, and by the time of the two documented examples, Roman kit was fairly well standardized. Juba was a contemporary of Pompey and Caesar; Tacfarinas' revolt was during the time of the emperor Tiberius (Tacfarinas had been a Roman auxiliary).

So if I were doing it, I might look at troops with Roman/Celtic mail, perhaps Coolus helmets, oval scuta, and open hands, so that gamers could give them pila or simple javelins. Probably beards would be good. Not much difference from a late Republican legionary or early Imperial auxiliary.

Allen

*Tacitus*: I'm channeling GW, apparently…

Allen

Might undyed leather shields have been plausible?

Or maybe try Ancmed.

My guess, and wild guess it would be, is that they would look essentially similar to contemporary Romans except in the detail of their kit; perhaps some might have punic style helmets, for example. But perhaps it might have been difficult to source sufficient chainmail in Africa? Alternatively perhaps they might have thureos rather than scuta, looking like hellenistic thorakitae. Nick Secunda describes the Seleucid ILs, and some troops who may well have been Egyptian, looking very much like thorakitae.

We've also oft wondered on TMP how the Pontic ILs might have appeared, to little avail (except for some indications that they were hard to distinguish from Romans); then there are the Gabinine remnants in Egypt; how were they equipped, still as Romans?

I'd hazard there's not a lot of definite info to be found.

Simon

It depends on who was the defense contractor supplying them. If it was Gateway, then sure, you could have cowhide patterns.

(Why don't we have a "rolling eyes" emoticon?)

For all I know, they could have worn ostrich feathers, wrapped their heads and veiled their faces like tribal Amazigh, tattooed themselves blue, and sung "Oh, Purple Fig" when going into battle. But I tend to take the limited descriptions of following Roman models rather literally.

Allen

Must… type… faster! ;-)

Simon

The very term "Imitation Legionaries" may well be a misnomer.

Roman Authors of the time may have missed/forgoten/ignored the fact that the Roman Legionaries were themselves imitations of their neighbours style of fighting.

The Galatian-Hellenistic Thureophoroi and the Spanish Scutarii are the main claims to fame for this. For instance, the Romans adopted the Gladius short sword of the Spanish Scutarii and made it so much their own that it's gone down in history as the archetypal "Roman" weapon. They very likely adopted the smaller oval scutum because of the Spanish influence as well. It is interesting to note that the tactic of the Spanish Scutarii – to throw their javelins/throwing spears and then draw their gladius and charge – is the very tactic that the Roman Legionaries refined and employed so effectively themselves.

In fact most of the equipment and tactics that we think of as "Roman" probably originated elsewhere. The Romans simply took these ideas from other places, put them all together, and came up with the perfect hybrid; The Legion. But even in it's prime the possible inspiration for the Legionary's origins can be seen if one looks closely enough and far enough back.

It is possible that it is these original legionary-inspiring oval shielded throwing spear types that Roman authors witnessed and mis-identified. No Roman author was ever about to say so but it could well be that actually the legions themselves were "Imitation Thureophoroi" or even more likely "Imitation Scutarii". With proper professional training and discipline they just did it so much better was all. ;)

Aren't Juba and Tacfarinas a little late for Punic Numidians – mid C1BC for Juba, and as you mention C1AD for Tacfarinas.

Does Suetonius mean these troops to be equipped as legions or is he just using it as a useful unit of size here?

The Tacitus passage seems to imply Tacfarinas ordered his men into units, but doesn't mention how they were equipped – unless I'm missing something…

didn't the pila make legionaries imitation samnites?

Juba:

Suetonius quotes Caesar as saying that Juba had ten legions. No doubt they could have been comprised of dancing girls or wine-mixers.

Tacfarinas:

"In this same year a war broke out in Africa, where the enemy was led by Tacfarinas. A Numidian by birth, he had served as an auxiliary in the Roman camp, then becoming a deserter, he at first gathered round him a roving band familiar with robbery, for plunder and for rapine. After a while, he marshalled them like regular soldiers, under standards and in troops, till at last he was regarded as the leader, not of an undisciplined rabble, but of the Musulamian people. This powerful tribe, bordering on the deserts of Africa, and even then with none of the civilisation of cities, took up arms and drew their Moorish neighbours into the war. These too had a leader, Mazippa. The army was so divided that Tacfarinas kept the picked men ***who were armed in Roman fashion*** within a camp, and familiarised them with a commander's authority, while Mazippa, with light troops, spread around him fire, slaughter, and consternation. They had forced the Ciniphii, a far from contemptible tribe, into their cause, when Furius Camillus, proconsul of Africa, united in one force a legion and all the regularly enlisted allies, and, with an army insignificant indeed compared with the multitude of the Numidians and Moors, marched against the enemy. There was nothing however which he strove so much to avoid as their eluding an engagement out of fear. It was by the hope of victory that they were lured on only to be defeated. The legion was in the army's centre; the light cohorts and two cavalry squadrons on its wings. Nor did Tacfarinas refuse battle. The Numidians were routed, and after a number of years the name of Furius won military renown. Since the days of the famous deliverer of our city and his son Camillus, fame as a general had fallen to the lot of other branches of the family, and the man of whom I am now speaking was regarded as an inexperienced soldier. All the more willingly did Tiberius commemorate his achievements in the Senate, and the Senators voted him the ornaments of triumph, an honour which Camillus, because of his unambitious life, enjoyed without harm."

Alen

Ah, thanks, didn't get that far in the bits of Tactius I found . That's a bit more comprehensive on Tacfarinas. Still, it's pretty late evidence

So, imitation legionaries = blokes in mail and helmets with big shields, swords and some sort of pointy stick. They may well stand a bit closer togther than some of their opponents as well.

What difference is there between Hellenistic thureophoroi and thorakites, Roman legionaries, Spanish scutarii, Samnite bubbas, and imitation legionaries of various ilk?

Well for one, when I pull some change out of my pocket and look at the mottoes on the coins, they're in Latin, not in Pontic.

The Gabinian legionaries were still the same troopers. Perhaps they adopted see-through linen duds and painted their eyes with kohl, but I'm inclined to think they held on to their kit.

What's that thumping sound, John?

Allen

Remove the pen from the inkwell, or you will poke your eye out.

Yeah yeah. "who were armed in Roman fashion". Note that they were ARMED in a similar way to the Romans. So that's what? Maybe a spear and/or javelins, chainmail and an oval shield? That combination had been around long before the arrival of Legionaries. Would a Roman writer really know or acknowledge or even care that such equipped troops had a history predating his beloved legionaries? Or would he just see similarly equipped troops and automatically think "oh they've copied us" – whether they had or not?

For all the "Roman" equipment, even if true heavy infantry, they still didn't necessarily actually fight in the Roman manner. These troops "armed in the Roman fashion," which have somehow evolved into "Imitation legionaries," might be nothing more than all those armoured troops with throwing missiles or/and spears of the kind that had been so plentiful throughout the mediterranean for centuries, given inaccurate description by an over inflated Roman ego. Roman accounts are notorious for their Roman biased embelishments and their disregard for accuracy and/or truth.

In addition, since Roman writers rarely used the same word twice, but used interchangeable words to describe the same thing, the use of "legion" proves nothing but that there were enemy units being described by a latin/Roman author. The enemy "legions" might not have been actual real legions as we understand them at all. After all, the literal meaning of the latin Legio is merely "conscripts" and "Army". Indeed, the original Roman "legions" were actually hellenic styled citizen soldier phalanx types. In short, "Legion" meant nothing more than a unit of men.

It is of course possible that the infamous "imitation Legionaries" were indeed just that. But it is also very possible that they were nothing more than the same time honoured infantry types that had existed already for centuries. The so called "imitation legionary" in the true sense might not have actually existed at all.

Please leave the sarcasm at the door.

"Would a Roman writer really know or acknowledge or even care that such equipped troops had a history predating his beloved legionaries? Or would he just see similarly equipped troops and automatically think "oh they've copied us" – whether they had or not? "

There are times where we are specifically told that a body of troops was trained and armed in the Roman manner, often by Roman deserters or advisers. They are raised in imitation of their Roman enemies or allies. Pontic and Galatians for example.
Presumably the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I agree that the use of the word legio may not necessarily mean the same at all times. Greek writers used their own words instead of legio and cohors and sometimes these are applied vaguely enough that it isn't clear how many men it refers to.

When I can't get the real thing, I always choose Numidian-brand Imitation Legionaries. Same great Legionary taste at a reasonable price.

Rich

But the point is, what would we want the figures to look like. Shabby, bearded, North African looking romans sounds different enough from both a Numidian and a Roman legionary to be interesting to me.

But I love these passionate debates – TMP can otherwise be (a) dull, or (b) a bit too scary – CA board – for my liking.

Perhaps no Roman boots either – perhaps no shoes at all.

So, Would it be too far off the mark if I were to suggest that the 'Imitation Legionaries' are simply a further extension of the 'trained infantry' that the Numidians already had.

I agree that the term 'Legion' here seems to suggest a group of men rather than any particular method of fighting.

It doesnt seem likely to me that they would be armoured in mail or greaves either.

'Picked me armed in the Roman Fashion' Doesnt really suggest much more than the fact they could be formed infantry (Scutum or Thureos, spear, sword) as opposed to the 'Light Troops' referred to for the rest of the army.

As sculpts If they actually looked like Romans and you wanted to make your units like that then people can use Roman figures – I cant see much justification for making a pack that will look pretty much like my Hastati.

Personally for my army I'll just use the trained infantry in a pretty 'regimented' pose and make sure they have a standard.

So, unless anyone can tell me differently I'll scrap that pack.

Thanks for the comments – all very helpful (apart from Allens one about the see-through duds obviously)

Mark

Mark, when will the new figures be released? regards Mike Adams

Mark,

Maybe some of your Carthaginian veteran spearmen, with the chainmail and scuta, rearmed with javelins or pila, could be mixed in amongst Roman figures.

Allen, yes kohl as in "Rome" would be fun! A painting challenge.

Simon

Mark

Not to hijack this thread, but since we're talking Punic Wars will you consider adding a pack of unarmored Celtiberians to the Spanish range ? The fellows in the new rank and file packs are fine, but not all warriors would have worn chainmail or pectoral discs. A quick conversion job on the Roman penal legionary pack might do, as the figures already have Celtic swords and helmets.

I shall try not to take up people's time summarizing what *is* known, in future, and will leave the floor to those who wish to spout unveriable (and in at least two cases on this thread, fairly dismissed by most scholars) bovine droppings.

Allen

Well said Allen

Mike B

You miserable old bastard Allen – lighten up, this was a very helpful thread.

Since Numidians and Nubians are pretty much the same, since Numidians used round shields on horseback and since they were exposed to Carthaginian influences, I Use Ancient Egyptian Nubians, and stick drawing pins on as shields with the Mark of Tannit painted on.

I paint 'em all Black of course, 'cos they are Africans.

There, that makes this thread even more helpful.

Pat

Oh, and let's not forget them throwing pikes.

Pat

Tongue pressed firmly in cheek, I found a text source!

"Cirith Ungol: Easy kills

As Sam, wait for someone to knock over another Orc then run up and quickly kill him. Eliminate them one by one and eventually get up to the Boss. An easy way to kill him is to keep throwing pikes at him. Make sure time does not run out while fighting the Orcs."

Isn't this nice.
We have a question asked.
We have a bunch of "it seems to me that…" answer.
We get an answer from someone who is published in the period.
We get the "it seems to me that…" crowd shouting him down.
We get the question asker calling the person who knows what he is talking about a miserable bastard.

If I were a right-wing nut-job, I would comment that this is how dissent on Global Warming Orthodoxy gets treated.

"We get the question asker calling the person who knows what he is talking about a miserable bastard."

Allen should know how much I have appreciated his help in the past and I would hope in the future too. If I thought for a minute he would be offended by that comment I wouldnt have posted it.

Of course what I really meant to say is that he is a miserable PEDANTIC old bastard :-)

And as far as I could tell this was a pretty open discussion – I didnt see any shouting down – just different viewpoints.

So, lighten up John – you miserable OFM ;-)

Come off, Allen might be published, but his answers on this issue can only be as 'it seems to me' as anyone elses given the paucity of evidence available.

Since when is questioning the timeline of sources is shouting people down? The evidence Allen cited for Numidian legionaries is hardly conclusive stuff.

It might well be more to go on than many troop types we happily field for his period, but two lines of Suetonius, who's little more than a tabloid gossip monger, and a hazy reference in Tacitus writing a good 50 years after the episode he's describing ( and 300 years after any Punic period Numidian imitation legionaries may or may not have existed) aren't really a cast iron case.

Allen was kind enough to take the time to post the refs, but there's no reason for debate to stop at that point and take Tacitus adn Suetonius as gospel.

>>> Of course what I really meant to say is that he is a miserable PEDANTIC old bastard.

Thank you for clarifying that; we do want to *try* to be as accurate as possible. No offense taken, it goes without saying.

I thought Pat summed the whole problem up nicely, although I did not see any mention of banana oil.

Allen

The great shame is that because the Punic nerds couldn't agree, we won't actually get any Imitation legionaries.

I hope you're all proud of yourselves.

The great shame is that because the Punic nerds couldn't agree, we won't actually get any Imitation legionaries.

I hope you're all proud of yourselves.

You've already got them.

As sculpts If they actually looked like Romans and you wanted to make your units like that then people can use Roman figures – I cant see much justification for making a pack that will look pretty much like my Hastati.

What do you want him to do, make something up? Make up some "Lawrence of Tunisia" figures, and use "The Wind and the Lion" as a sculpting guide?

Catiline I didn't think Mark at Crusader was asking about punic war era ILs. I'd assumed he was asking about ILs from the time of the Civil War c51-47 AD, and the later Tacifarnas revolt.

Personally I think that if, alas, we only have Tacitus and Suetonius (and Caesar) we have to go with them, unless we have some access to research from archaeology or can infer from neighboring areas (and I don't think we can in this instance).

Simon

re reading it i think you're right about the period Simon.

I think if all we have to go on is these two passing references it's not a lot to extrapolate from. I know we have too, i spent long enough relying on holey Roman and Greek sources at uni. absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but clearly in this case it's very difficult to have any real feeling for what the sources are referring to.

We all love an exotic troop type, and I don't doubt if I was modeling a numidian army, and not just allies, I'd want some myself for a bit of exotica, and a motley crew of 'legionaries' with a good mix of looted and hand me down armour, theuros and scutum, would be fun, if fantastical.

Ed

>>> What do you want him to do, make something up?

That doesn't seem to be necessary. As the experts have determined, Spanish, Samnites, Seleucids, and quite possibly A.E. Housaman's Shropshire lads all have elements in common, and ergo are simply the same thing wherever you go. Thus the figures could certainly sculpted wearing the pasamontana with a crest of feathers, riding armo(u)red elephants. Perhaps wearing an exomis, or possibly a pancho.

Give them Spanish swords and other Spanish weapons, including the "Mauser especial".

The less disciplined elements of the later Nubidubian armies could be represented by those British experts on Spanish culture who seasonally populate the Balearic Isles, perhaps best represented in Burberry caps, and alternately dancing and staggering. Or supine.

Tacticus and Suetonius are even more boring than Housman, and can be safely ignored.

Allen

I think some of this is my fault in not asking the correct question. Its not that I dont believe in the existence of these troops, just whether people can use existing packs or if I needed to make something new.

I really cant see any justification for a whole pack of figures that look just like Romans only a bit more scruffy.

On the other hand I would like to be able to differentiate between the trained infantry and the IL units. I think its stretching things to suggest that there are going to be lots of units in full Roman gear – armour included. If you want to make unit like this (the 'picked men' referred to?) then Roman figures are suitable and already made by enough manufacturers.

Would it be unreasonable to assume that the majority of IL's could be represented by the trained infantry I will make anyway but with the addition of pila and Scutum? Simple then to add a mix of Roman infantry as well to give variety in dress. Representing a step up in the infantry training and the influence of the ex-Roman commander.

I think this would cover all bases. So, unless anyone can actualy tell me I'm wrong that seems like a pretty reasonable compromise.

Ed,

Yes I do rather agree; without going overboard I'd also want them to be somewhat distinguishable from yer bog standard Roman. Like you, I'd make a mental note that their appearance was fantastical.

Simon

Since Numidians and Nubians

are pretty much the same

Tacitus and Suetonius

shuold be given all the blame

for imitation legionaries

of imaginary fame

When allen's finished quoting

and giving forth from up on high

the 'experts' are determind

and underneath they'll cry

The gladius was spanish

and legions seleucid

Just make the minis bearded

and Numidian to my eye

Better yet make them barefooted

For Nubians had no caligae

Just a bit of fun. apologies to houseman for the visceral verse

And to think that MY "Imitation Legion … guys" are RAFM with mixed heads. One size fits all.

Well, my elephants are also Arifix Zoo Set #2, so I guess my Punes are just behind the times, and "outdated by subsequent research."

So the best you guys can come up with is tanned romans? Some experts.

You take 2 ambiguous comments and anchor yourselves. Where's the imagination, the xtrapolation from what's known to what's unknown. The 2 quotes mentioned provide very little in the way of acftual constraint on appearance.

And who's to say they didn't look like romans with dish-dashas under their lorica. I wasn't their and neither were John or Allen.

I'll bet that if someone produced "Romen Carthegenian Nubian Invitation Legionnaires" wearing cross country skis, someone would buy them. They're the ones who get HTW, JLS, D, 2HCT and SH.
I'm sure they are in a list, somewhere, too. Like the Sub-Roman Ethiopio-Finnish DBMMMM list.

No…. wait. That's the Warrior list for Incas. Sorry about that.

" I wasn't their and neither were John or Allen."

Always my favourite argument. That's why my Teutonic Knights of the 13th century use Pz IVs.