"Russian 43-45 Summer Uniforms - how common was green?" Topic

Dear all,

I am just about to start painting some Black Tree Russians. Most will get a Yellow Khaki as the uniform colour (GW Snakebite Leather), some may get a slightly darker variant (GW Graveyard earth)

I have seen pictures of a pale green variant (not sure maybe GW Rotting Flesh?) and a dark green variant (GW Catachan Green).

Were the green variations very rare?
Can I mix green trousers with Khaki tunics?

Regards
Mick

The darker green was darker because it was "newer" in that some units got issued the new darker green which rapidly faded in use because of the cheap dyes used to make the mass quantities required to outfit the Russian army. So, rare is relative. At least that is what I have been lead to believe, of course there are uniform experts on here who will be able to give you much more information – just wait a few hours!

I agree with Jovian. Most of my russians I do in various browns and africa yellows. But I do have a couple of "Green" recruit units that I painted up to be fresh off the train and just getting into the fight.

A WWII Russian vet once told me that the greener the uniform the higher the rank because it meant they spent less time in the sun.

For my part I tend to use a yellow-Khaki uniform with hints of green hiding in the seams.

My understanding was that the summer cotton uniform was khaki, while the winter wool uniform tended more towards olive/dark green.

Certainly rank played a part as well, but usually that effect kicked in the further from the front one was. Front-line officers wore pretty much what their men did.

Both summer and winter uniforms start out very similar in shade but fade at different rates, with the cotton getting the worst of it. Thus the summer uniforms tend more towards khaki and the winter uniforms retain more green.

Thank-you eveybody

Best way to paint those russians. Split them up into groups of three. Now paint the blouse on three. Next add a little white or black to slightly change the hue. Now paint another three. Once you have pinted all the blouses, mix them all up, now spit them into groups of three. Repeat the process for the trousers, and the shoulder roll/blanket etc.

You can mix khaki and green together to get a mid shade, or go all khaki on some. Basically paint them in a campaign style. Now paint the helmets all the same shade (brings the troops together as a unit). And you have some authentic looking russians. Painting them all one shade of green or khaki, doesn't look right to me.

Even the US army had 17 approved shades of 'olive drab' for the uniforms (going from greyish green to tan)

The extent of how much you change the shades/hue between batches is up to you. Even a very subtle change does indeed show up on the table :)

Useless Gonzo has a good method.
What I do with Russians is to line up the varius shades of khaki, khaki grey, russian uniform, ect and then randomly paint shirt, trousers to create a mix of shades.

We use a "uniform" of sorts at work. a sort of burgundy polo shirt. Everytime we order, the shade is slightly different. If it is like that now, I imagine it was much worse 60 years ago. And that doesn't even take fading into effect.

Thanks again

Horroah, i was going to ask this question, saves me the effort.

the brown myth lives on……

All uniforms were a green ahade of khaki(hardly surpriseng as khaki is a brown shade of green)….except some winter wear which was mickey mouse in about 6 different patterns of reversable smock. These had light tans and almost choclate brown. and various shades of greens

even the standard uniforms had a dark and light shade of green. The darker shade appeared to be made by manufacturers in the ukraine.

The brown shade did not exist outside the tan camoflage uniform.

A brownish shade of green is as brown as you can go.

Personally, I blame mud, some colour blind artists and sepia shading to period ww2 colour photographs.

The question should be "how rare is brown" and the answer is very rare, when washed. Faded khaki is faded a green shade.

All green is directly contradicted by colour film taken by Germans of prisoners. Real colour, not colourised.
Plus what few original uniforms still remain.
Plus german descriptions of uniform colour….
And the list goes on.

It is my understanding that very late war green became the standard but there was green and tan/brown prior to that.

colour film is even worse than colour photographs for degredation of shade.

picture

picture

picture

the last of the three is the most brown, but is still green

picture

and the dark green

picture

and the tan outfit that is actually mustard

picture

picture

picture

picture

picture

reversable smock

picture

picture

early war

picture

mid war

picture

How brown is this?

picture

or the early war version

picture

And perhaps the main reason for the "brown" description.

This is a brown wool overcoat, but most interesting is the fact it isnt brown

picture

We can also play "spot the brown uniform!" here

rkka.ru/uniform/files/i_arm.htm

and here

rkka.ru/uniform/files/i_btmv.htm

rkka.ru/uniform/files/i_kav.htm

Here is the main page.

not a brown uniform anywhere…..

rkka.ru/uniform

I would stay away from GW paints for military figures. I use Vallejo Khahi Grey, Russian Uniform if you like green uniforms. It gives great results.

MOst of the pictures Kevan posted are what I would call brown.

I would be careful about the health of any brown horses you paint…..

seriously, thought, that is the problem. olive drab has brown in it, but calling it brown doesnt capture the colour at all, and leads you into haveing the wrong base primary colour of red over green.

Perception is that it is a brown uniform and people paint them brown. It isnt brown , its khaki which is a shade of OD. Paintings are the worst though since they can be tinted/corrected or whatever. I have mollo plates which are as green as a green thing, but have seen those same plates touted on the internet browned up to ridiculous proportions.

There are 4 main uniforms which get browned up more than they should be which are not a brown shade but a khaki green shade(french, russians, canadians and US Paras) Its the same issue done the same way for the same reason. Just because we use brown washes and use shades to match osprey books doesnt make the colours correct, especially some of these latest ospreys which have pale watercolour plates.

As a rule, I never go by colour plates any more. I want to find photographic evidence.

Yes, photographic evidence is best.
Best if you don't completely dismiss out of hand contemporary film of course….

colours in contemporary film……dismiss it no,

take it with a pinch of salt…..oh yes, which is quite appropriate considering the vinegar syndrome that film suffers from.

Just how many of the Trident uniforms are repos rather than originals ???

well for photos the best book is the 'Red Army Uniforms of WW2 in Colour Photographs".

That work has heavily influenced how I paint my Red Army figures. It's good for showing the difference in shade between tunic/trousers, etc.

Another good source is Militaria Magazine. I have an old issue featuring a Red Army nurse at Stalingrad that has some models wearing original kit and some photos of a uniform that was found in a warhouse in mint condition. The shirt was pale khaki like British khaki drill, but other uniforms worn in the photos are definitely have a slight greenish tint, or are 'drab' brown/green shade.

the Red Army photo book explains in one section that the vast size of the USSR coupled with dispersed uniform production and availabilty of dyes was responsible for the difference in shades. And that is not accounting for weathering.

the trident uniforms are made from the original suppliers of the material used during ww2.

the rkka website are all originals. I think they are the original uniforms from the soviet army museum.

Perhaps someone can post a link to an original russian uniform in brown/ british khaki shade. Despite searching, I have never found one and only see the brown shade reproduced in colour plates.

The vinegar effect on 8mm film is what made people beleive US marines often had a beige and tan uniform.

But still repos.
I've seen originals up close some i'd call a browny-green others a greeny-brown and one i'd call off white :-)

Well looking at the originals

M1935 Uniform

picture

M1935 Uniform

picture

M1935 Tankers Uniform (which is shown as grey on colour plates)

picture

Ooooh here's a grey one

picture

Or basically the answer is pretty much the same as trying to define the Olive Drab for US infantry uniforms. There is no 'one' answer. It depends on when it was made, where it was made etc.

So browny green, brown(mustard), green….all are correct. However we'll never be able to say which colour was the most common. So I say go for em all, paint what looks good. Its all as historically correct as the next guy opinion.

KevanG

You are quite correct.

What I find fascinating about this discussion is it comes to the same conclusion as I've come to re: the colour of various Napoleonic uniforms.
The stated colour is a guide & there is a lot of latitude.
As always, many thanks to the knowledgeable posters on this thread.
donald

Sorry KevanG,
You are somewhat wrong!

Yes there are many green and greenish-khaki uniforms,
BUT see 'Red Army Uniforms or World War II in Colour Photographs by Anoton Shalito, Ilya Savchenkov, and Andrew Mollo. ISBN# 1-872004-59-8 Windrow & Greene Publishing c. 1993.
Pages 11,12,14,21,23,26,31,36,40. all show uniform items that are not green or greenish-khaki. These items include gymnastiorka, sharovari, shinel, various caps, padded jackets, etc. All photos. In one or two of the above pictures the model is wearing greenish and khaki gear at the same time to show the contrast in shades. Again many of the items have no greenish tint and would be correctly called 'khaki'(same color as Vallejo khaki), or khaki-grey (again like the Vallejo paint)

No I don't have a color scanner. Maybe someone else has a copy they can scan?

That's the reference I woud recommend.

Wouldn't scanning it be illegal?

Dear everybody,
thank-you for a very enlightening discussion.

Kevan G
Thank-you vry much for the rkka links.
That is absolutely perfect as source material.

Regards

Mick

Don't bother Shalito's work is rubbish…the author is only interested in $ale$…not accuracy. The other picture book is much better (can't think of the author at the moment) Anyway it's chock full of colour photos of original uniforms and gear from Soviet Museums.

There was a loooong discussion/argument about Shalito (to which he personally chimed in with his two cents worth) on some of the Soviet Living History forums I belong to. My Soviet uniform is all sort of light yellow olive in colour; except the overcoat which is a medium brownish gray. Webbing is all a darker olive green. Winter padded uniforms were about the only items that were really dark green (dark olive green – NOT the yellow/tan shade that most people paint them). They didn't last long enough in the field to fade that much!

Not to say there weren't some odd gray or greenish gray tunics, etc in 41', but they didn't last long when fighting Germans or Finns in the same colors LOL!

Well, When a soviet re enactor jumps in to tell you that you have got the right end of the stick regarding the colours….You will understand why I said I go for original photographs, not sepia browned colour photos or vinegar effected colour 8mm film for shades.

I prefer repro uniforms rather than faded originals unless they are looked after like the zero-ultraviolet museums like moscow and Paris.

Of the last 10 uniform books I have bought, Nine have been photographic plates of uniforms and one has colour plates, but that was a campaign osprey….

Blimy, i was hoping that after painting my colour blind 15mm sasanids i would be in easy uniform colour land with these guys, wrong again!!

Brilliant resource material, thanks guys. I love TMP, everyone is sooooo helpful, and i did not even ask this one!!!

I remember buying an album of WW2 Soviet soldiers' songs back in the 1970s. It had a piece of artwork on the cover of about half a dozen Red Army types around a campfire with a balalaika. What stood out for me was that no two articles of clothing were the same color. Since then I have given up find the "the" right color, since apparently there wasn't one.

Dear all,

Following on from the posts by KevanG
I took photos from rkka.ru and put them into a Photoshop program.
Using the eyedropper tool, I sampled colours and then made large rectangles of the main colours.
I printed these on a laser printer and then tested the paints that I have against them.
As a result, I have decided that the following colours are correct. (..in my opinion at least)

Greatcoat – GW Scorched Earth
Winter Padded Tunic – GW Gretchin Green
Wool Uniforms and Quilted Trousers – GW Graveyard Earth (or Tamiya Khaki)
Summer Cotton Tunic – GW Desert Yellow

Helmet – dark version – GW Catachan Green or lighter version – GW Gretchin Green
Ammo Tins – GW Catachan Green
Leather belt – GW Bestial Brown
Metal Belt Buckle – GW Chainmail

Amoeba Camouflage Green – GW Gretchin Green
Amoeba Camouflage Brown – GW Scorched Earth

Gretchin Green is a brand new colour in the pots with the white lids.
If anybody can give Vallejo equivelants, this may help other users.
Thanks

Regards
Mick

Is this a good book?

Stalin's War: Soviet Uniforms and Militaria 1941-45
by Laszlo Bekesi (Author), Gyorgy Torok (Author)

From the amazon page, it looks to be good.
Mick