"GW Specialist Games- no more figures?" Topic

Picked up from the Specialist Games forums

Originally posted by Sabbad at Warseer
I spoke to Andy Hall at Games Day UK on Sunday.

For the past few years, Specialist Games have had a release window every six months – a January release and a Summer release. The last of such releases was the Warmaster Araby release.

However, I have now been told that GW do not intend to release any more models for the Specialist Games. Unless GW starts doing well again, the Specialist Games suddenly become popular, or there is some massive change in demographic, GW will not be creating new Specialist Games models ever again.

Don't know how true this, but not good news, whatever your take on GW.

Wow! That sucks, warmaster is my favourite GW game. I have a bunch of stuff for it, and with the copplestone stuff out it would be easy to do a lot of things, besides the fact that they have almost every army out already.

Did they say that they would still be producing the ones they already have made?

Your story makes my heart heavy, and my prostate weak….

:( I liked epic & Co.

It's hard for the specialist games to become more popular when GW has had a policy of not supporting them in any meaningful fashion for the last several years.

Fortunately, I've got my Warmaster rulebooks, and with companies like Kallistra, Eureka, and Copplestone (among others) making 10mm fantasy, I can continue to explore new armies and new ideas regardless of what GW does or doesn't do.

I don't really see this as a bad thing. Most of the specialist games can be supported by other companies cheaper miniatures. With the rules freely available, that means the gamers win!

What I'd really like to see from specialist games is a re-release of Gorkamorka. I know it won't happen, but I can hope :-D.

Thanks
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A

Gotta get the Epic minis off the market so Apocalypse players only buy and play with the big figures…

thats bad news indeed , i need some more epic urgently . I fail to understand why they just can't rerelease the old stuff :-(

I should check if I have downloaded all the rulesbooks and additional stuff that I am interested in from Specialist games. Who knows how much long those will be avaible if they are no longer believing in the success of those lines. (Yes, most likely the rules etc. will still be avaible for free as long as they continue to sell the old models – but better safe than sorry.)

It's hard for the specialist games to become more popular when GW has had a policy of not supporting them in any meaningful fashion

Bottom line is that GW has no clue how to deal with something that is merely a success, but not a runaway success.

GW lines are popular because they are A) shiny, and B) relentlessly marketed. As any number of small manufacturers on this forum can tell you, being shiny isn't enough by itself. For some reason, however, GW seems to treat their Specialist ranges as if shiny *is* enough, even in the face of an incomplete revision (Epic) or ongoing rules development (Warmaster Fantasy). The Specialist line was born specifically because people were still playing the games that GW had abandoned. While I *like* the new Epic, the reality of Specialist popularity was that the games were good and complete to begin with and, as a result of being abandoned, *stable*.

If GW relegates their Specialist Games to the same status as Warhammer Historicals, and *expects* people to fish elsewhere for minis, that's one thing. Developing offshoots of GW-only IP but denying the opportunity to use IP-appropriate pieces is another entirely.

Development leads to an expectation of support. One or the other gets complaints, wish lists, etc. Provide both and people are happy. Provide neither and the true fans will deal with it. This was the behavior that GW wanted to tap into. Their mistake was in thinking that this could be a big business without the marketing support.

This outcome shows that GW is either painfully unfamiliar with their own marketing model, or that they were more interested in driving the Specialist coffin nails in place permanently by alienating even the hard core fans.

With Sci-Fi Commander in development (an offshoot of Blitzkrieg/Cold War Commander, themselves a descendent of Warmaster) I'm set for good sci-fi mass combat rules. :)

With Sci-Fi Commander in development (an offshoot of Blitzkrieg/Cold War Commander, themselves a descendent of Warmaster) I'm set for good sci-fi mass combat rules. :)

Errm, most all of the Specialist rules are already available as free PDF files. Thus far, the main issue is not so much rule availability as continued model availability.

The problem is that GW can't make huge amounts of money on the specialist games. The reason is because they have created rules for these games that are superior to their 28mm counterparts. Did you ever notice how they keep on coming out with new rules versions and codices every eight to ten years or so? Its to make money. The beautiful thing about the specialist games is that they have come up with rules that don't need to be changed, hence no money. They are also rules that have far more tothem than the 28mm rules- games of Epic are a lot of fun to play because they really make you think; the rules are not dumbed down.

The specialist games also don't follow their mission of the four hobbies in one. There is not much to painting Epic, Warmaster, or BFG minies, so if you try to do blending with Epic minies, you will go crazy. They promote the hell out of their 28mm games and support them better than any other company I have seen, and maybe even leave them with problems as that is just something to fix with the next edition of the rules. Maybe, maybe not, although it wouldn't surprise me since they are capable of coming up with rules for the specialist games that don't need to be revised countless times. If they can do it with the small stuff, they could do it with the 28mm too.

They are simply interested in milking the gaming market for all the money they can get.

They are a company, making money is what they are supposed to do, and as long as people remain apathetic and keep buying GW product even though they are dissatisfied with it, they won't improve.

They can make all the money they want. I cant think of a single thing that they have,though,that I actually want to buy.Nothing against GW,I just dont play any of their stuff anymore.

I see three strings of complaint developing here: gamers (rules), painters (miniatures), and some combination of the two.

Me? I'm a painter (for now), and plan to snatch up what I can now while it is still available.

"coming up with rules for the specialist games that don't need to be revised countless times"

I don't know about this. BFG was a pretty solid game I think, but I didn't really play it enough to notice if there were huge flaws. Warmaster I played like crazy. There are a lot of odd things and unclear things in the rules. Given that the fixes came in the ancients version as far as base mechanics go.

I think a second version of the fantasy game would be a good thing. I think it is very good but not perfect, a lot of stuff needs to be house ruled when odd situations come up.

They can't playtest every possibility.

As far as the painting is concerned I think that there have been specialist games that would allow just as much painting possibilites and one that would allow way more. Gorka morka, necromunda and mordheim are all likely to more favour someone who puts much more time into their individual pieces than 40K or WHFB because they can field a force in less time.

Inquisitor really puts the boots to people who want to get some figs on the table quickly.

Sure Warmaster, Epic and BFG aren't really as painting intensive in some ways as the other games, but when you look at a strip of Warmaster figs, they are about as big as a 28mm fig and have at least as much detail.

I think it is more about resource availability and having to concentrate, in tough times, on the big money makers.

Just a silly question do we know this is fact? I thought it was a rumor. Or is that not what the first post said. It seems that any bad rumor about GW is all of a sudden fact. If someone can give a legitament scource that would be differant but I plan to treat it as bull until someone with real knowledge says something.

Like I said, I picked it up from thee Specialist Games forums. I have no idea whether it's true or not but, last time I visited, nobody was denying it. Doesn't makes it a fact but given GW's 'lets shoot myself in the foot and see what happens' business practices regarding the SG range it's hardly unlikely.

I've heard this from two supposedly different people who were at Games Day UK, but this is the Internet. For all I know they are both the same pseudo-sentient cat in Bangalore, making up stories because he's trying to manipulate GW's stock.

I do think this is a good opportunity for someone. GW drops their 6mm support just before making Tyranid models, right? Leaves the door open for one of the other manufacturers to make "insectoid" aliens and tap into GW's former market. Crumbs to GW could keep some companies quite well fed, I would guess.

What I'd really like to see from specialist games is a re-release of Gorkamorka. I know it won't happen, but I can hope :-D.

I did hear rumours that Gorkamorka would appear on Specialistgames.com when the new Orks codex appeared for 40K.

In the meantime, the new Ash Wastes expansion for Necromunda features pretty much all the vehicle rules from Gorkamorka ported to Necromunda.

What sucked in the interim is that they vigorously went after anyone who scanned in the rules and posted them to share, or similar.

Er, that makes perfect sense. If everyone downloaded the rules, then no-one would want to buy them when they're re-released. Or is pircay only a bad thing when it's not GW you rip off?

Having said that, the new box isn't the same thing – it's a campaign system for Warhammer, not a full-blown boardgame in its own right.

I do think this is a good opportunity for someone. GW drops their 6mm support just before making Tyranid models, right? Leaves the door open for one of the other manufacturers to make "insectoid" aliens and tap into GW's former market. Crumbs to GW could keep some companies quite well fed, I would guess.

Too true. Look at the success of the Scrunts and Grymm, both of whom are selling to the frustrated Squat market. GW says they're to big to bother with the secondary game ranges anymore, fine. Let other people do "inspired by" figs that cater to the market GW is ignoring.

Note that the correct URL is:

specialist-games.com

I look at it another way, GW decline actually started with the removal of Mordhiem from the regular GW to Specialist games. If you ever watched the Red shirts sell the little kiddies and their parents on 40k or fantasy, you will notice they don't mention the need for points or just how expensive units are, or what it takes to be competitive. Really all they want is to sell the starter box set and the rules. It's kinda like buying a used car, without tires sure there are rims, and it will roll, but really is it any good. It's almost a con job sorry to say. In the old days, with Mordhiem or Necromunda for $100.00 USD you got a competitive gang, an introduction into modeling and painting, and the gaming community, you can't do that with 40k for $100.00. That's what I see a big problem in today's markets, we are not creating new gamers. GW keeps raising the prices and reducing there markets share because less younger player can afford to get into the hobby, and of course older players move on with lives and other commitments, or even die, so it looks like there killing off there own market.

Fair point, that. GW certainly isn't as accessible to new players as it once was, and the disappearance of games like Mordheim and Necromunda and even Gorkamorka contributes to that. They need to either resurrect some of the older "small force" games or start emphasizing rules variants like Warhammer Skirmish (which was essentially dumbed-down Mordheim anyway) and Kill Team if they want to draw newbies like they once did.

Which makes 40K Apocalypse almost exactly the wrong thing to do, doesn't it? :)

"Unless GW starts doing well again.."

?!

Jervis Johnson said at Origins 2005 that Specialist Games were not doing well. He said something like they soaked up 25% of GW's studio budget and produced only 5% of the profits. This was after a couple of years of trying to turn them aroun. You can see why this rumour may well turn out to be true.

I have trouble believing they were actually 25% of the studio budget, though. That might well have been what the financial documentation said, but there are plenty of ways to do accounting of shared assets. As far as I can tell, which accounting method is used depends far more on which division you want to look bad, than on realistic assessments of usage. The accounts I've heard tell of sculptors squeezing Specialist figures in during their lunch hours. Hardly 25% of the costs if you are getting the labor for free. (I'll readily admit these are Internet accounts, and not necessarily reliable.)

I've enjoyed some of the Specialist Games, but I'll live if they go away. GW could own any of these market niches if they wanted to, just on the strength of their brand; if they drop out, more people will hopefully pop up in the absence of a threat.

I have trouble believing it too, since they weren't actually doing any significant game design work on specialist games, but that is what the recording of Jervis Johnson's speech said.

And you are quite right about the uses and abuses of accounting.