"Still Looking for rules..." Topic

Although I was leaning largely towards MoA having recently read that there was a lack of C&C limits made me think twice. Is this accurate?

Requirements:
1.) Rules that offer comprehensive lists and a point system.
2.) Command and control limitations!
3.) Lots of lead. No DBA 30 miniature armies please…
4.) Fairly complex that takes into account troup types via army lists and not just HI, LI, LC ratings.

Thanks for any and all help you can offer.

Do a search on Yahoo Groups for Frank Chadwick's Ancients Rules. With the exception of the comprehensive army lists (they're not ready yet) everything else you're looking for is there.

Not particularly true. There is a command radius, there are leader qualities (aggressiveness and quality), and a few people have added fairly decent rules for command for particular armies.

MOA IS NOT DBA!!!!!!!!!! It is not a competition set of rules. It will take about 3-4 hours to play with 1000 point sides. It plays faster with 2 folks that actally know the rules, but 3-4 hours with 4 players per side with some novices is average (15-20 units per side).

MOA is not complex. It certainly isn't rock, paper, sissors like DBWhatever, but the mechanics are certainly not complex. I thank God for that. The mechanics can be learned in a single game.

I've been playing MOA since it's release. I've run hundreds of club and convention games. I own more than 15 decent armies for MOA. It is my favorite set of rules.

Your point #4 is beyond my comprehension. What do you mean?

MOA has an excellent points system. It has lots of lead. It produces decent historically plausible battles.

It is NOT complex. It is abstracted to make the player the General, not the company clerk. In 42 years of wargaming I've found that rules that try to take everything into account, really simulate nothing. That is my problem with a few games like AW, Empire 10 (or whatever it's up to) and virtually all of the latest and greatest. So, if you like mindless complexity, go elsewhere. This ain't it.

FACT: In the ancient period, there was no airborne reconnisence. There was no radio. And there WAS NO COMMAND AND CONTROL! Generals planned the battle beforehand, made things happen by signals according to the preplanning, and could often refuse battle if need be. After that it was luck, numbers, and planning. No set of wargame rules simulates that. Wargamers refuse to preplan.

You should try Tactica, or Armati. They seem to meet you criteria.

What is MoA?

Might of Arms by Bob Bryant.

Thanks,

John

mikeah,

Thanks for that clarification, even if at times I pictured you as one of my former drill instructors yelling in my face (particularly the one that chewed tobacco and took great pleasure that you didn't care for its smell). :)

The things you listed about MoA are the reasons I've been leaning in that direction. From what you have said and lacking a better phrase "the command and control aspects" of MoA are probably not something that I can fully appreciate until purchase.

By #4 I am referring to historical units being graded beyond the typical rock/paper/scissors of HI (heavy infantry) LI (light infantry), and LC (light cavalry) as examples where all units fall within those strict definitions and all act in accordance. From what I've read of MoA in the Y!group this has been accomplished and is easily modded to suit.

The list was not one of objections to MoA, but what I want out of a ruleset, indeed MoA looks like what I want, with the trepidation of command and control.

Tactica was the last ancients set we played years ago. We did enjoy them, but none of our books have survived and its no longer in print. Tactica was not our ideal, but came closer than DBx brand.

You might wish to look at Strategos from the Society of Ancients – you can play it with as few or as many figures as you like, it has a comprehensive set of historical scenarios alongside a very clever victory point system, whilst it does use HC/LC type groupings there are various sub categories of troop types (cataphracts, archers, legionaries etc) with their own characteristics along with a qaulity rating (so veterans will kick the cr*p out of vats number of levies) plus an very effective leadership/command system. The inital deployment is everything, and the game covers the armies deploying as well as fighting – really, really, really good generals or skilled armies may be able to significantly change the deployment once contact is made, but more often it becomes a struggle of resource management and controlling the tempo of the action.

Uses a grid and doesn't really feature equal points competition type games, so doesn't appeal to everyone.

Look at WAB (ducks for cover…)

Ah, WAB – Mass Skirmish rules! <just in jest>

Well, seriously:

Requirements:
1.) Rules that offer comprehensive lists and a point system.

The basic rules offer generic (EIR) Roman and barbarian lists and there are supplements with historical and game info including quite extensive army lists with point system. Whatīs more, Armybuilder supports it. Most popular periods are represented except (so far) Early Imperial Romans. But Biblical, Alexander, Punic, Dark Age, Byzantine, Medieval are all there.

2.) Command and control limitations!

There are the Break and Panic tests. There is the Generalīs 12" command radius used for better break tests. There is the barbarian tendency to move and charge spontaneously. There is Fear, from elephants and really bad-breathed barbarians.

3.) Lots of lead. No DBA 30 miniature armies please…

You can play WAB in 28 as well as 15mm scale and there is no upper limit to an army. My 4000 point 28mm Carthaginian army is some 270 figures and four elephants strong. The sky, or rather your purse and the table-legs are the limits.

4.) Fairly complex that takes into account troup types via army lists and not just HI, LI, LC ratings.

There are loads of different troop types, some generic, some specific to an army list, optional weapons, properties and skills and even (in some lists) differences in experience. Lastly standard units can even be modified during the game by adding characters to them.

For example; light cavalry with javelins becomes Numidian by adding Feigned Flight (to evade charges), Parthian Shot (to end moves just outside charge range)and a higher Leadership so the unit wonīt break easily. Adding a General makes the Leadership somewhat higher.

Pijlie,
Having played WFB first edition as a kid, smuggling goods from the UK, and watched as that company evolved, I can't help but say I view WAB with more than a little trepidation.
Although I have no personal account of the following, I have read of these aspects:

1. No limit on wild flanking units and movements.
2. No battleline to speak of.
3. Purchasing of Heroes/equipment ala WFB…yeah, no thanks.
4. Lists purchased via separate compendiums or only available via subscription to "Ancient White Dwarf" (okay, not a real subscription but you get my point)

The first three being in direct contrast to ancient wargaming imho.

This is the same company that took a great basic concept of epic space marine (I remember getting the box set when it first came out) and turned it into Dr Suess's bad acid trip through the galaxy.

Not to start a "WAB-dispute" but to clearify some things

"Having played WFB first edition as a kid…"

A friend of mine describes WAB as "the game WHF was supposed to be, without the monsters and the magic". Itīs a similar, but different game.

1. No limit on wild flanking units and movements.

Iīm not sure what is meant by that exactly, but flanking movements are (of course) possible within the limits of terrain and the table. Off-table flank moves are not permitted as a rule AFAIK but some rare lists (like Early Saxons) allow them. Flanking movements are usually reserved for those units fast enough to execute them. This means cavalry mostly, which sounds historical to me. Breaking up your battle line to run around the enemy at all sides will get you divided and flanked yourself in a hurry, so is not advisable. Again, this sounds historical to me.

2. No battleline to speak of.

Again, I donīt know what you mean. In WAB, without a line, you will get flanked. Flank attacks will not only gain the attacker extra Combat Result points, but negates the all-important rank bonuses (depth of formation advantage). When you get flanked, you will usually get routed and with some bad luck, massacred, just like in ancient times. Consequently, I never saw a WAB game without a battle line.

3. Purchasing of Heroes/equipment ala WFB…yeah, no thanks.

This is apparently a matter of taste then? I like the option to "create" specific troops by adding skills, difference in equipment and such and do not see a way to do it otherwise. Unless youīd like them pre-created in an armylist, but that is basically the same thing. Ancient troops did not all have the same equipment and skills after all.

More importantly, I was not talking about the "hero-type" trooper but about units. Most skills or properties apply to units, not individuals. For example, you can make infantry Drilled, which enables them to change formation quickly and makes them more manoeuvrable. For this you "pay" points per trooper. This is one way to create the historical difference between a Roman legionary and a barbarian warrior.

4. Lists purchased via separate compendiums or only available via subscription to "Ancient White Dwarf" (okay, not a real subscription but you get my point)

I canīt argue with that.

"This is the same company that took a great basic concept of epic space marine (I remember getting the box set when it first came out) and turned it into Dr Suess's bad acid trip through the galaxy."

Indeed. I refrain from playing WH40K and WHFB for a reason ;o)

Warrior from FHE (Four Horsemen Ent) meets all of your requirements.

Dear Grog,

You ask for much. There are several rules that meet some of your expectations and requirements; but one rules set that meets all is hard to find.

DBM, WAB, and Warrior all offer a number of facets that you might enjoy.

My rules offer a lot of what you ask for save the army lists, but there is a DBM converion chart to assist you in your conversion of systems. (I hate army lists as most are not representative of actual historical armies that took the field).

Take a look; they are free, unlike many you may look at.

link

Good luck!

- Greg Pitts

RE: 1. No limit on wild flanking units and movements
"Iīm not sure what is meant by that exactly"

Moving freely in reaction independant of battle plan or limitation in control. Are you wargaming the period as a general or acting as every commander of every unit on the table. I like the concepts for AWI in British Grenadier, limited reactions based upon command orders issued prior with limitations on the possibility of changing said orders…with greater limitation penalties for the period.

RE: 2. No battleline to speak of.
"This is apparently a matter of taste then?"

Magic-Lite does not make me think of history. I've seen mention of things as "shamans" and "special items". I maybe, perhaps, well more like a big IF, could live with this if it meant only an overall +1 to morale or something silly like that. Religious leaders bucking the man up before death or something. I have my doubts that they are this limited.

All of these things combine to create an environment where people "game the game" or what I call "gaming a period, not wargaming it".

Thanks for offering further insight into WAB, but it just doesn't seem my cup of tea.

Iowa Grog,

Of course, I will recommend Hoplon, but, to beat the haters to the punch, I am NOT recommending it out of a sense of profit, or because I have a vested interest in the game. I constantly recommended it to people long before that came about.

Hoplon has a decent command and control system that goes beyond the simple PIP system of DBx. While it is based upon that system (Hoplon does use PIPs that are called "Command Points" – or "CoP's"), it has elements that take the command and control system beyond this. The training level (More about this in a minute) of the troops will affect the ability of a Command Element to control a unit (Hoplon uses Units, but still has units that are made of elements, which may move independently of those units if so desired… At great expense to the unit). The Initiative level of the Command Elements (And C-C specifically) will affect the control of units. As will his behavior on the battlefield (Did he do something unexpected and harmful to the morale of his army? Did he do something that could help theh morale of the army? etc…)

That takes care of point no. 2 (I will come back to point #1 in a moment).

Lots of lead… Yep… My Polybian Roman army at its smallest size for the game has around 300-350 figures. If I max out the legions and add some extra Italian Alae then I am looking at between 350 – 500 figures. My Gallic army (before I sold all the Essex figures to replace them with Corvus Belli and Xyston Gauls) had around 400 – 500 figures at its smallest size, and upwards of 700 when it is maxed out. My Carthaginians vary between 250 and 500 figures depending upon the allies… The smallest army I have played has been a Mongol army that was all Professional troops (again, more about this later), and it had only 150 figures. Of course, much of it was Light Horse too, which has only 2 figures per element. Also, an army playing against that 150 figure Mongol army is going to need about 3x the number of figures to be able to have a chance of winning against then (The Early Russian army that played opposite the Mongols was 500 figures strong)

Troops that are not just HI, LI, etc…

Hoplon uses many of the troop types from DBx, except that it has a few more troop types to fill in holes in the DBx system (For instance, Hoplon has a dedicated type for Cataphracts & Foot Knights to name a few). Hoplon also has removed much of the abstraction from the Morale Grades for the Troop Types. In Hoplon, the Grade of the troops is purely for morale; all other modifiers and characteristics are defined using what Hoplon calls "Distinctives". These are characteristics that make one troop from an army "Distinctive" from one of the same type from another army. The distinctives are:

Fast (F or Fx): Instead of being a Grade for a troop type as it is in DBx, Fast troops may be any type of troops; not just a few types as in DBx. A sub-distinctive of Fast is the Fast Exceptional (Fx). This distinctive is used for Peltasts, Bowmen, and Cavalry primarily. It creates a troop type that is able to fight as its more dense formation, but may move andn react as a lighter more Open Order troop type: Such as Mongol Cavalry, able to fire continuously at a distance, but able to form up and charge an enemy if they need; Greek Peltasts, who were not quite Psiloi, but could evade and harrass an enemy with missiles in addition to being able to close formation to fight at close-quarters. Bowmen with the Fx distinctive are sort of like Bow armed Psiloi, but may kill an enemy element with missile fire (Other than other lights… Psiloi may not kill enemy elements frontally with missile fire, they may only kill enemy elements if they fire on their flanks or rear – or if their target is other light troops).

Heavy (H): This gives the troop type extra protection against missile fire. It allows for troops that in DBx might be given an "S" grade simply because they were heavily armored (I realize that they need to meet a few more criteria than this, but it can be one of the reasons for giving a Superior Grade to a troop type in DBx). So, you may have Heavy Spearmen, showing that they have better than normal protection. You may have Heavy Cavalry (for those Turkish Ghilman who might not be Superior, but certainly were well protected), or Heavy Peltasts (the Hoplon equivalent of Auxilia, except that the Peltast type in Hoplon can do things that DBx only dreams of being able to accurately reflect).

Vulnerable (V): This is the exact opposite of Heavy. These troops may be shieldless, or so tightly packed that they cannot escape missile fire. Again, there are many reasons why a troop type might be Vulnerable. Some troop types may be neither Heavy nor Vulnerable (Psiloi for one, their disbursed fighting formation makes them a difficult target to begin with)

Untrained (U): These are troops who have not had sufficient training, either in basic weapons skill, or in drill as a unit… Any grade of troops may be Untrained; Superior Untrained Troops represent highly motivated troops who have not yet been able to adequately learn their jobs.

Professional (Pro1/Pro2): These are troops who are the exact opposite of Untrained. These troops have been given exceptional training in either their primary role (More on this in a moment) – as Pro1 Troops, or in both roles – as Pro2 Troops. For Irregular troops, Professional represents those who have shown themselves to be above the average warrior, or have been fighting as a way of life (Gaesati for instance; or Various Ancient & Medieval Mercenaries)

In addition to the distinctives that a troop may have; All troops have a role, which may be Shock (Melee), Missile (Exactly what it says, they are primarily troops whose job is to shoot at the enemy, and not close to close-combat unless forced to do so), Shock/Missile (for those troops who are primarily close-combat troops, but are also trained and equipped with a missile weapon), or Missile/Shock (Troops whose job is primarily to shoot at the enemy, but who also are trained and equipped to fight at close-quarters if needed.

This will give you all of your basic troops. However, there are a few other "National characteristics" or Equipment distinctives that a troop may have.

These include Cavalry/Mounted trained to fight in a Wedge (W), or equipped with a Lance (L) (This may actually be any weapon which gives the cavalry an edge in close combat. A Heavy Mace, Lance, Hammer, etc…), able to perform missile fire in a Skythian or able to perform a Parthian Shot (I believe Cantabrian Circles are also included). Elephants may be equipped with Howdahs, Horses may be trained to fight alongside (or against) Elephants or Camels without a disadvantage.. and so on.

Other National Characteristics are the Ability To perform Rank-Relief for the Republican and Early Imperial Romans (Legion Maniple "LgM" and Legion Cohort "LgC"); Hoplites (Hpl) who may charge at the run and gain other advantages which normal spearmen do not get; and various other abilities that are available to only one or two armies due to their historical behavior being noticably different from other armies.

The only thing that is a deficit to Hoplon right now are "Published" army lists. Many are available on-line for free, but this will end shortly after the Published army lists come out. These will be grouped into several periods (The Biblical Armies, The Rise of Rome, Mycenea and Troy, The Greek and Persian Wars, Alexander and the Successors, The Macedonian and Punic Wars, Roman Empire, The Fall of Rome, Early Asiatic, Dark-Ages Central Asia, Dark Ages Europe, The Muslim Conquests, The Crusades, etc…). "The Rise of Rome" & either "The Greek & Persian Wars", "Alexander and the Successors" or "The Macedonian and Punic Wars" are the first scheduled to be released, followed by some of the Dark Ages and Medeival lists…

We are also interested in help with creating new lists for Hoplon…

If you are interested, you can get a copy from me. They are $22.50. You can reach me at matthew_bailey at mac dot com

I can give you the link for the lists as well.

Yea, I'm old. I tend to be blunt because I do not feel as if I have time for danceing in the roses.

In my Might of Arms armies, I always provide 4 Generals, 1 Main General and 3 Sub-Generals. The Generals have a command radius according to their quality (part of the rules). Generals effect Morale Checks. Generals also negate certain MC's if they are within Command Radius. Nothing like needing to countercharge and failing a MC. forcing you to get hit flat footed, because you didn't get your General within radius which would have made the check unnecessary in the first place.

The one thing about MOA is that it doesn't break if you play with the rules some. If you want to use a realistic set of C&C rules. Use the rules I wrote for them (for MOA). Essentially, it requires the players to write down there deployments before hand, centered on the setup line with some knowledge of the terrain. It allows the player to write a number of signals that he can fly during the battle and the effects of those signals. He may also detach LC, LI, for use in prebattle recon, which may allow him to react a bit to his enemies plans. It forces the players to plan ahead, commit to an actual battle plan prior to the engagement, organize an army along an OOB, and move pre planned movements with specified groups. It only allows particular Generals to command particular troops.

Essentially, I have Army command Cubes. The army General flies a signal that allows the sub General (and his men) to adopt an order for that group according to a preplanned set of signals. If a signal is flown for a group to ATTACK, the 3x5 is layed on the table with the that signal. The sub-General than checks for compliance if required, (a Cautious SubGeneral might downgrade the order for example). Orders in the order of Aggressiveness are ATTACK, ENGAGE, HOLD, DEFEND, MOVE, WITHDRAW. All groups must be under one order or another. This does not work well in multiplayer play – but the effect is the same because player subgenerals never do exactly what the General wants.

Players generally hate anything to do with C&C restrictions even if they ask for them. The concept of not micromanageing a battle is lost on wargamers. Even today, real Generals don't have the precise control of a battle that wargamers claim as their God given right in any battle in history. Fortunately, only lead dies on our battlefields.

I like the Piquet rules. they offer most everything that you are looking for, except the point system . They build in a different way to balance play.
They are also quite different from your normal rules, there is more record keepint to determine before you start playing.
The basics start from the fact that not all armies or units are identical, different units roll different dice from d6 to d12, and the units are moved via random cards, so most units do not move or take actions every turn. check it out here:

piquet.com/news.php

Iowa--

"3. Purchasing of Heroes/equipment ala WFB…yeah, no thanks."

You are unfortunately laboring under some huge misconceptions. Heroes and Generals in WAB are NOT anything like what they are in WFB, nor should they be. A character is generally only marginally better than a regular trooper, and in some cases is actually worse depending on how the generals fought in that particular army. For instance, a Viking General is considerably better than his men and is a valuable addition to a fighting unit, while a Roman Consul is no great shakes at all, but has a terrific Leadership. In any case, no character can survive by himself and MUST be in a unit to be effective at all.

"Magic-Lite does not make me think of history. I've seen mention of things as "shamans" and "special items". I maybe, perhaps, well more like a big IF, could live with this if it meant only an overall +1 to morale or something silly like that. Religious leaders bucking the man up before death or something. I have my doubts that they are this limited."

There is NO "magic-lite" in the game. Shamans work pretty much as you say you would prefer they would-- they cause a unit to Hate the enemy. Some can cause fear in the opposing troops. Neither of these things could be considered magical in any way, unless it's by the ill-educated men in the units. I have no idea what "special items" your sources are referring to, as I have never seen one in any of the supplements I own.

Regardless of all this, it seems you are completely predisposed to dislike WAB, so any more discussion of it with you is kind of moot. Too bad, as the actual game bears no resemblance to what you seem to THINK it is. Good luck with your search, though! I'm glad mine was over long ago when I started playing WAB… 8)=

Hi Iowa,

Yes, it seems that you have some incorrect assumptions about WAB.

But lets step back a bit. Shouldn't you give some consideration to what is being payed in your immediate vicinity? No point playing "System X", which may satisfy all your criteria, but then find out no one will play with you.

Ralph

Nazrat,

Do you have any redress for the movement of units and my "perception" to the lack of a battleline? How many wheels can a macedonian phalanx make under WAB? These questions go to mechanics which are benchmarks in rulesets.

As far as characters go and what you said as the absence of ANY magic-lite, then you guarantee me that there is NO equipment upgrades purchasable by characters that have "special" abilities other than to affect the reality of what they wear? For example are you saying they can purchase different classes of armor, but there isn't a gladius of barbarian slaying or pilum of truth or some crazy crap which gives arbitrary bonuses as spice?

crhkrebs,

Generally I find the system that I enjoy and if need be will buy and paint multiple armies for that ruleset. I have a couple of similar minded friends and the rest are pretty open to whatever. When I was still in high-school I made the decision to never be pigeon-holed into playing a game merely because it was the only one being played. If I did this I'd still be playing 40K and DBA at best, but more likely Risk. :) In a larger population area though, your advice would be of more value as there would be a wider selection of gamers to choose from. There isn't much for historical gamers in the north half of Iowa. So as I have to travel to game, I have the luxury of choosing which direction to drive and that will always be in the direction of people who just want to wargame or are of similar mind.

" For example are you saying they can purchase different classes of armor, but there isn't a gladius of barbarian slaying or pilum of truth or some crazy crap which gives arbitrary bonuses as spice?"

Now you're just being silly. No, there are no special items which give a character any special bonuses of any sort. None. Nada. Clear? 8)= Oftimes you can buy a horse, and barding, and sometimes heavy armor if the period allows it, but generally the commander has LESS options than many of his units do. The few stats that are better than the average grunt (especially Leadership) are what you are paying all those extra points for.

Nazrat,
Great, this clears up a ton for me. Now how about the free-wheeling macedonian phalanx myth? Are they free to operate like a college dance team during the half time show at the Fiesta Bowl or are they limited to reasonable movement considering its nature?

IG
iowagrognard.blogspot.com

"How many wheels can a macedonian phalanx make under WAB?

These questions go to mechanics which are benchmarks in rulesets"

I happen to know this one:

The phalanx is made up of units of phalangists. A phalanx unit may wheel normally (that is: no limits), but may not make "right or left face" (each man turns 90 degrees). A phalanx may not change facing when engaged in the flank or the rear in subsequent combat rounds. All advantages of the phalanx are to the front only (two ranks fighting, -1 to hit for opponents and such) and are lost in difficult terrain.

This makes the phalanx crushingly powerful to the front but capable of rather ponderous wheeling turns only. And ONLY if not engaged in flank or rear. A normal unit would be able to turn left face for example at the cost of a quarter movement and move straight to the left. A phalanx would have to sacrifice most of its movement to turn 90 degrees and would need room to do so.

I canīt explain your impression that there is no battleline. As I wrote you NEED a physical battleline to avoid being flanked. Mind, this does not preclude oblique lines, pincer moves and such. Perhaps you could explain what is your definition of a battleline?

Pijlie,
Thank you for that explanation about phalanx movement, sheds more light on the ruleset's credibility.

My definition of a ruleset lacking a battleline would be where you witness most games degrading into the absence of one. Observation and communication was not an easy thing in any pre-modern era, let alone ancient times. The ability for forces to react with catlike reflexes in direct contrast to predefined battleplans creates the environment where a battleline does not exist. Commands where rather rigid, battlelines were drawn up in accordane with the age's limitations. More times than not the battle was won in deployment and general battleplan and within that plan a commander's ability to manipulate not only his opponent's limitations, but also his own. What I envision a WAB battleline it's that of WFB, a few units over there, a few units over here, a few running around over in that direction. As was said there isn't a command limit, but rather only a radius for morale bonuses.

Is there a morale or combat deficit for not being supported? I would htink this would have more of a real impact then a shaman being present, for example.

I see. It depends a bit on the flow of the battle, but small elite armies (like Romans) really need a coherent battle line against, for example, barbarians. You could send your units all over the battlefield, but that would expose them to flanking. Barbarians are more numereous and faster then Romans, so their formations tend to be looser and more dispersed. When playing Romans or Carthaginians the battle line usually stays intact until the closing stages of the battle (usually when my losing troops rout or his victorious units pursue ;o).

As to support, there are several ways this is accomplished.

First, the rank bonus for rear ranks supporting the front rank gives extra combat result points (which determines who wins). You lose this when flanked (since your supporters are fighting elsewhere). Low morale barbarian warbands even add their rear ranks to their leadership when testing.

Inter-unit support is the exception and you will find it in the Republican Roman army where units may be supported by units in their rear by adding their rank bonuses to their own combat result. This also forces you to adopt the classical chequer board manipular structure btw, since the supporting units may have two units to support in their front firing arc. My hope is that in the coming Roman supplement this will become the rule for Roman armies. Until now, the Republicans are the only "real" Romans detailed in a supplement unfortunately (I intentionally skip the Byzantines and Late Westerners, since these were quite different armies).

nazrat: "No, there are no special items which give a character any special bonuses of any sort. None. Nada."

May I draw your attention to Shieldwall supplement, page 90 (Optional rules), which describes a number of items that could be rather described as mythical than historical.

Griefbringer

"4.) Fairly complex that takes into account troup types via army lists and not just HI, LI, LC ratings."

What is this? You mean army lists that provide specific rules for that particular army?

It would be usufull to know if you are either looking at a skirmish set (one casualty one model) or a unit based set (one stand can be 500 men). That could help keeping focus and applies to other similar posts.

Note: Arcane Warfare is a good simulation considereing what's out there – I must think so or I would drop it – but does not qualify for you because the army lists are far from complete.

Darn youīre right. But I bet Nazrat never heard of these things, nor ever saw them used on the table. Neither had I, the proud owner of a Viking Army as well as the Shieldwall supplement and veteran of a dozen battles with both.

Actually, a few other WAB supplements include "mythical" options for their armies as well. You will usually encounter them in the Optional Rules. Examples are the Family Heirlooms and Sacred Relics from Shieldwall, Sarissa wielding Carthaginians from Hannibal, Barbarian Warhounds from the WAB Basic ruleset and some mythical character skills from Age of Arthur, which as a supplement due to lack of historical sources is for a large part made up from myth itself.

Then again, the dividing line between myth and history is a bit vague in most rulesets when pet subjects from the writer are concerned. I have always been perplexed with the way DBA or DBM dealt with Roman Legionaries, for example.

Then there are Byzantine armies built for WAB that bristle with staff slingers, the WAB Long Tom of the Ancient Era, built on "historical evidence" that they were "really used a lot" and supposed to eclipse the longbow in range and hitting power. Why did someone ever bother to perfect the longbow and arrow when a stick with a leather strap at the end could fire any rock further and harder, I wonder…

At the same time the Norman Papal Banner which really had a lot of influence in gathering Williamīs army is branded as a "mythical" object.

When you go looking for products of fancy in WAB, you will find some. But then again, you will find that in any ruleset.

In the WAB supplement Armies of Chivalry the French can have the royal banner Oriflamme, which has an inspiring effect on the unit carrying it (becoming immune to panic), though that is not particularly mystical effect.

OTOH: in renessaince rules Warfare in the Age of Discovery, there is an optional rule on page 44 that allows Catholic (but not Protestant) priests can prevent cannons from blowing up by blessing them.

Griefbringer

That is strange that the Byzantines should be able to use staff slings in normal combat.

I was under the impressin that they normally only used those things for seiges.

Which Byzantine lists allow staff slingers for Byzantines – is it the Armies of Antiquity list? With a quick browsing through Byzantium: Beyond the Golden Gate I could not spot any mention of them – though in Vlad supplement the Catalan company can for some reason include some Greek troops with them.

Griefbringer

Yes, it was in the "if they had it, we'll list it" AoA list. The book has amended this and does not include staff slingers.

Thinking better of it, the Catalan company list in the Vlad book can actually take rather abusive amounts of impressed Greeks with staff slings.

Curious since no other list in that book has access to staff slings.

Griefbringer

You have a word processor and internet access. You have already listed what you want from rules you want to play with. Write your own. You have a word processor and internet access. Dare to think. Save money. For army compositions, read history books, not train-spotters lists.

Plasticviking,
Token appearance from the peanut gallery?

Nazrat,
You almost had me at, "None. Nada. Clear?" right up until this talk about musicians, standards, etc getting more bonuses. I'm not clear on this now.

As I saw somebody post some things about numerous items like this, basically items making them immune etc, I have to say I'm back on the fence when considering these rules. I was almost to the point where I was going to build an army just in case I ran across some people to game it with; a side project.

No worries, but anything you could add to assuage my anxiety would be great. for my main rulest I think I'm gong the path of Hoplon or MoA though, thanks for all the insights from everyone.

Iowa G,

I can give you a deal on Hoplon if you are looking to go that way… Especially if you need more than one copy of the rules for anyone else you play with…

Despite the flack that I take about my passion for the system, I have yet to run across a system that allows the amount of detail, yet retains the ability to keep bookeeping to a minimum and speed of play fast. I have found that once I have become familiar with the basic Combat Factors of the game that it is MUCH faster than DBM in its resolution…

I hope that you will give it a try.

I tried to join the Ancient Empires Ygroup, but the image recognition thingmajing is broken.