"Historicon Event Statistics?" Topic

In past years, someone would go through the events run at Historicon and provide a breakdown by period. WWII would always top the list at around 40%. I didn't see the breakout after last year's Con. Just wondering if that guy is still around and doing it for this year's Historicon? (I know, I know -- why not do it myself? I could, but I don't have any record of what events were cancelled and what new ones were added.)

It seemed that WWII games were down this year, although a lot of FoW games were in a separate room all by themselves, so out of sight. Victorian sci-fi was down considerably. Maybe Pulp, too, but not much. Russian Civil War (Inter-War) was up, as was Spanish Civil War (thanks to Iron Ivan's new rules). In fact, the Iron Ivan gang was running a lot of nice-looking games this year. Lots more modern games this year, too. Made for an interesting mix!

To me it looked like there were way more WWII games going on. Between flames of war and plane games I would have put the number, just from eyeballing, at about 60%.

After that I have no idea. Maybe pulp games or nappy naval, although I suspect I got a skewed view of the latter as they are so easy to spot.

I did seem to notice fewer ACW games. But I was pretty busy, so it's just an impression based on cursory looks.

I was not at HCon years past but based on observation, I saw more WWII games than any other. Next most popular seemed to be Ancients and then Medievals. I only saw a few ACW games.

Here are the numbers right out of the database. This accounts for cancellations before the show, but I have not counted up the on site cancellations, yet. So this was the breakdown at the opening gavel.

Yes, WW2 is the champ with 208, or ~30%.
Land – naval – air are not tracked.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Period Count
Ancients 26
Dark Ages 8
Medieval 22
Renaissance 12
Pike and Shot 8
Age of Reason 42
Napoleonic 42
19th Century 33
ACW 28
Colonial 40
VSF 4
WWI 38
Inter-War 11
Pulp 17
WWII 208
Modern 46
Fantasy 39
SciFi 65

That is interesting, the non historical games would be second place if lumped together, which may or may not be fair, with 125 including pulp, VSF, sci-fi and fantasy.

That more than doubles the total for all the pre-Renaissance periods, is almost equal to the number of games for the 19th century total.

As a matter of fact it is 7 more than the total of all the period prior to Napoleonics.

Non-historical games were roughly a fifth of all of those scheduled while ancients, medieval and dark ages only made up less than 10 %.

Interesting as the number of games broken down like that is roughly equivalent to what people were looking for at my booth.

Glad to see Duncan post the stats. I use to do it be did not have the data this year before or during the convention to work it.
VR
James Mattes

Hard to use those stats to guage popularity without including the tournaments. Lampeter is roughly the size of Distelfink so the numbers of pre-gunpowder player si still likely quite high.

I didn't realize they didn't include the tournaments but I guess that makes sense.

I am shocked at the number of Sci Fi games plus fantasy = 108. "Pulp" is usually just interwar role playing games, so I will keep it in the historical venue. SciFi accounts for 15% of all events. (if the 208 WW2 is 30%). I thought there was a limit for these at 10% at the very most. Are these pushing out historical games from better sites. My CLS Napoleonic game (sort of historical) was stuck in the up stairs not so easy to Showroom. That is a devil of a place to carry 12 boxes of figures to. Was I pushed out of Distlefink or some other main room by SciFi? Why not put all the SciFi and fantasy up there and give the good space to the historical gamers, who attend the Historical Miniatures Gaming convention.

By the way, there had to be more than 28 ancients games. Does that count tournaments? There were 10 DBA events -- tournaments and scenario games. Are events in Lampeter just excluded on principle.

Somebody from the HMGS organization was taking pictures after hours of the empty tables tables in Lampeter -- maybe just the Flea Market ones, saying he was documenting how under used that room was. There were DBA events going from 9 – 11pm every day, except Wednesday, then just 8pm to 11pm and Sunday 9 to noon. We were packed even with our pre-2006 space restored.

picture
picture

Wow. WWI beats ACW and Ancients? This is a sign of the end times. And I agree with Bob (and his dog). SciFi and Fantasy should be treated as poor relations at a historical con. Historical (especially theme events) should get the primo venues.

"I am shocked at the number of Sci Fi games plus fantasy = 108. "Pulp" is usually just interwar role playing games, so I will keep it in the historical venue. SciFi accounts for 15% of all events. (if the 208 WW2 is 30%)."

SciFi, fantasy, VSF and Pulp account for 125 games or ~18%. I wish it wasn't that high, but it is.

"I thought there was a limit for these at 10% at the very most."

This is a widely held belief, but no such limit exists. The fact is that as Events Manager, I am neither required nor authorized to turn away games.

"Are these pushing out historical games from better sites. My CLS Napoleonic game (sort of historical) was stuck in the up stairs not so easy to Showroom. That is a devil of a place to carry 12 boxes of figures to. Was I pushed out of Distlefink or some other main room by SciFi?"

It would be impossible to say what game pushed what. I do not base room assignment on game type. I cannot speak for other events managers.

"Why not put all the SciFi and fantasy up there and give the good space to the historical gamers, who attend the Historical Miniatures Gaming convention."

One reason is that the room had 39 tables (as laid out this year) of the ~150 total. That's 26%. We can't afford to upt 18% of the games in there and and toss 8% of the tables. Another reason is that a lot of GMs like being up there and most of them are running historicals.

"By the way, there had to be more than 28 ancients games. Does that count tournaments?"

no.

"There were 10 DBA events -- tournaments and scenario games. Are events in Lampeter just excluded on principle?"

As the events manager, all the data I have is on the individual games submitted to me for scheduling. The details of what occurs in Lampeter are a state secret. Hence, your CLS game was counted because you submitted it as a "game" and your DBA scenarios were not because I never heard about them.

For future reference, if any of you have a room prefernece you can state it on the form. The earlier you get your game in the better chance I have of accomodating the preference. Game registration will open next year the day after Cold Wars.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

So that means that at an historical game convention, the second place for most games goes to Science Fiction (65) with Fantasy (39) running close behind three other historical periods. Interesting.

39 and 65 adds up to 114 the last time I checked, but then I'm a scifi/fantasy gamer, so what do I know? Presumably Bob let his dog do the math for him. :\

I'd be more curious to see how many slots were actually filled (as opposed to just scheduled) for each category. That's a better indicator of event popularity, since scheduling an event doesn't always mean it gets enough players to run, even at a big con.

I don't think it especially interesting at all, as the more important figure is the overall number of SF/Fantasy/VSF games, which Duncan stated as being 18% of the total games run. I certainly don't think that's too many non-historical games at all. Having a variety at the con simply makes it a better draw for gamers in general.

And let's keep in mind that the figures shown above do NOT count in all the tournaments, which were Ancients, English Civil War, and WW II (if there were others, I apologize for not mentioning them--those are the ones I saw). That would push the overall percentage of Historical to non even higher.

I don't think it especially interesting at all, as the more important figure is the overall number of SF/Fantasy/VSF games, which Duncan stated as being 18% of the total games run.

To each their own. I think it is interesting that SF and Fantasy are becoming a dominant category of gaming at Historicon. I really couldn't care whether the convention becomes mostly SF or Fantasy, but I do find it interesting when there was such an uproar over this very issue in years past and the numbers of games in this genre seem increase anyway. Personally, I say bring it all on…it's all good.

Colonial beats ACW, whoa…

"39 and 65 adds up to 114 the last time I checked"

You might want to check again. In my math it adds up to 104. With the addition of the VSF games, which would be hard for anyone to classify as historical, the total for the three comes to 108. Since Pulp games often contain zombies, giant apes or somesuch thing, I would put them in the realm of fantasy and sci-fi personally but I don't suppose they have to be.

As far as the tournaments go, whether they are strictly historical or not is debatable, but so are "what if" historical games to some degree I suppose. While you could argue that the ECW tournament is, fairly strictly, historical as period opponents often face each other there the argument about the Vikings vs. Hittite game is a little harder to justify.

The interesting thing to me wasn't the number of games of one thing or the other but that the overall totals would have so roughly corresponded to what I was selling and being asked for at my booth with some minor, but significant, differences.

I was not surprised by WW II being dominate at Historicon. Heck, Nazrat and I ran a WW II game at the convention. If time had allowed I would have been running a Pulp game. Every place you went there was some type of WW II Battle going on and then when you toss in the FOW tourney WW II was truely dominate. I do not think this is a bad thing per se. Periods will go through stages and for now WW II is on the rise. There are a number of factors for this I think. One is the fact that WW II is very accessible even to the casual miniature wargamer (if such a person exists). It is easy to find references and paint the uniform colors and almost anyone who has had some world history in school perhaps has more than a passing knowledge of WW II.

Nappoleonics on the other hand are a daunting prospect unless you are passionate about the era, and the ACW has a bit of acrimony attached to it depending on ones views about the War between the States as it is called in my neck of the woods. Other periods such as Ancients and the Middle Ages cover such a vast span of time and what we realy know is often sparse that these periods offer a certain amount of leeway to the wargamer.

As to Colonials, WW I, Interwar, VSF/Pulp, Pike and Shot, Horse and Musket, Sci-Fi, and Fantasy there is again such a vast area of interests and tastes that it is hard to not find something to like and is therefore not hard for one to be involved in those eras. But WW II made perhaps the greatest inpact on the world stage then and since that it is easy to see why it is ubiquitous. Add to that the fact that in the past 8 years there has been an explosion in scales, available models and rule systems for the person seeking to game their favorite aspect of the WW II era.

If you want to see more of a other periods at conventions I do think it would not hurt to see someone design and market in a savy way other periods the way WW II has been presented currently in the miniature wargaming market. I found it more than interesting that every FOW table I went by had a wide diversity of person playing: Young, old, male and gosh FEMALE! It was very refreshing.

I'm with John Holly- perhaps many of the folks playing pulpy stuff this year will tire of it and play historical games in the years to come. I think alot of gamers take their cues from media such as TV and Film.
I often wonder if more historical movies were made would there be an increase the number of historic games. For instance – if someone made an epic film of, say, Hastings would there be a surge in the numbers of Dark Age/Early Medieval games being played at the big three cons? I wonder if this occured after Saving Private Ryan or Braveheart?
To test this theory, please send me $100 USD million dollars and I will get to work.
tanc

"Colonial beats ACW, whoa…"

This seems to me to be the convention theme's doing.

"… almost anyone who has had some world history in school perhaps has more than a passing knowledge of WW II."

I blame the Hitler Channel … I mean History Channel.

Duncan, thanks much for all the excellent info. It is good to know how things operate. I enjoyed my self generally, except when carrying all those boxes up and down to the Showroom. Perhaps there needs to be a weight of game measurement to keep people out of there:) The light was good at my table.

It was another good con. While the groupings of events is not so interesting, I was amazed by all the various particular games going on in groups. You can say World War 2 but the variety in the category is outstanding – air, land, water, North Africa, Russia, Far East, Europe, etc.

There are people who will play anything! And just about anything was available. When you run events, you do not get to see every thing and that is the one shame of the organization. In the future, I am thinking of having a half-hour break to allow my players to walk around and see what's going on.

Now that I understand the process, I will book early. Next year is the 95th Anniversary of the publishing of Little Wars. As part of my count down to the 100th anniversary, I would like to do a Little Wars game, Friday, 2pm, in the Paradise Room. It is too early now, so I will be ready at 12:01 am on March 10, 2008.

"To each their own. I think it is interesting that SF and Fantasy are becoming a dominant category of gaming at Historicon. I really couldn't care whether the convention becomes mostly SF or Fantasy, but I do find it interesting when there was such an uproar over this very issue in years past and the numbers of games in this genre seem increase anyway. Personally, I say bring it all on…it's all good."

We are in complete agreement on THAT, John! Well said.

Thanks for the stats Duncan. I am really stoked to see WWI gaming up there and going so well.

I'm curious as the break down with scales. Were there more 15mm, 25mm, 10mm, ect? I assume most WWII were 15mm?

About the 10% rule. There was one once. The rule was made by the National Board of Directors. Nobody's flagship convention could be more than 10% "Alternative" (or Dark Side) Games. My impression is that the rule was pushed through by the head of one chapter to spite a rival chapter.

National self destructed in 1998.

I think the stats above omit tournaments. If you took all the DBA, Warrior, etc. (assuming that Burgundian Ordonnance versus Ancient Egyptians is historical rather than dark side) FOW, and DBR games HISTORICON 2007 would have passed the test. That's even if you count the board games (usually played with miniatures) that broke out in the bar and hallways over the weekend.

"I'm curious as the break down with scales. Were there more 15mm, 25mm, 10mm, ect? I assume most WWII were 15mm?"

If you count all the FoW games in the tournament, I'd say yes it was about 70-30 15mm/28mm. There were lots of Disposable Heroes and Arc of Fire games using the larger scale.

While I do want non-historicals to remain a minority, I am thankful for the amount of non-historical games. It makes the con much more enjoyable for me. It seems evident to me that the vast majority of historical gamers do not limit themselves to strictly historical games.

Besides, where do you draw the line? I played exactly one historical refight. I played in four reasonable but speculative historical games. I played in one (of many) fantastical historical games. And I played in three non-realistic games.

My only comment -- I don't mind Battletech games at Historicon, but they get a whole room?

VSF 4
Pulp 17
Fantasy 39
SciFi 65

VSF and Pulp should be categorized with Sci-Fi and Fantasy. It's the same thing, but often using some historical miniatures (e.g., British 1880s troops fighting on Mars). If you add the 4 VSF with the 17 Pulp to the total for Sci-Fi and Fantasy then the total "dark side" games comes to 125. (Probably a low number considering that Operator5 told me that .45 Adventure and Gloire were run in every time slot on Friday and Saturday twice!)

I think the stats above omit tournaments. If you took all the DBA, Warrior, etc. (assuming that Burgundian Ordonnance versus Ancient Egyptians is historical rather than dark side)

Tournament games should not count, in my opinion. Most are fantasy games in that (as you pointed out) Egyptians can take on Burgundians, etc. They are also not for "general" consumptions--so to speak--for the typical convention attendee. Tournaments are, however, a vital part of the convention and should be given a separate "hall" or area. I recall playing in tournaments when they were in the Distelfink room. Their present location(s) seem better.

I reiterate: bring 'em all on … they are all good. I couldn't really care less if SciFi or Fantasy dominated the convention--although you'd need a much larger facility, as attendance would skyrocket if those genres started to dominate.

There WERE only three tables in there…

For the Battletech, that is. John snuck his comment in before I could hit Submit! 8)=

Re: Battletech in the Cornwall room

yes they got a whole room.

Having their own dedicated space and schedule autonomy allows them to pack a lot more densely than the con in general.

They ran 42 games in there.

That means that 6% of the total games in the program were using 2% of the tables. Also that 2% of the tables accounted for 1/3 for the alt games.

Similarly, for Rattrap their games use small spaces (and mine, too -- I ran 3 Fantastic Worlds demos in the HAWKs room).

The fact that so many, though not all, of the alt game scheduled were small or of short time or both is one reason that the high percentage didn't bother me. Another reason it that when you subtract the alt games you still have 575 historicals. That is more than the TOTAL game count at any previous HISTORICON.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Is there access to the showroom other than the stairs? Opening up the loading dock for Distelfink has vastly eased my set up and tear down.

"Is there access to the showroom other than the stairs? Opening up the loading dock for Distelfink has vastly eased my set up and tear down."

Believe it or not all major loading into that large room has to be done through a roll up door behind the stage. It opens directly into a 20 foot drop. Anytime the Host has to move something large or a lot of stuff they need to get a large scissors lift or fork lift. Making this means available to GM is a non starter from a liability standpoint.

All that's left is up the stairs and down through the tiers.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Wonder how many game masters ran both historicals AND
sci fi/fantasy and saw some of the dame faces in both game types.

"Wonder how many game masters ran both historicals AND
sci fi/fantasy and saw some of the dame faces in both game types."

If you don't mind waiting a while for me to catch my breath I will be able to tell you.

For now, let me start by saying I am one -- 3 Command Decision; 3 Fantastic Worlds

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Duncan,

Just to be clear, your stats above OMIT all the FOW/ancients/renaissance, etc tournament stuff, correct?

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.com

First of all Duncan – nice job, and catch your breath so you can do it again!

"Wonder how many game masters ran both historicals AND
sci fi/fantasy and saw some of the dame faces in both game types."

My son and I ran both Historical and SF. The SF one was popular enough to run both the scheduled game and two additional times (with over flow every time). That means you should add 2 more SF sessions to the stats (total of 24 plus players).

"SciFi, fantasy, VSF and Pulp account for 125 games or ~18%. I wish it wasn't that high, but it is."

Duncan, I hope this comment was because you want even more historical and not less SF / Fantasy?

I saw a lot of high quality SF / Fantasy games, and as always some fantastic historical games. If you count tournaments as strictly historical then the convention was overwhelmingly historical!

None of the stats count the pick up games or the board games or the cancelled (and not announced) games as far as I can see. Most importantly I saw a lot of gamers having fun!

We have this debate at our local conventions as well. One convention strictly historical (and no board games allowed)! One club does a historical and an open tournament. All are successful, but nothing like Historicon or Origins.

The issue is having a successful convention that supports the gaming industry. I like historical gaming, but I love gaming first!

SF / Fantasy should be at Historicon for the same reason that Historicals should be at Origins.

Also, think about this one: If you decide to impose game standards i.e. historical only or limit games, who gets to decide what qualifies? I bet we could not even agree on a definition of historical?

We plan to run both historical and SF next year as well if allowed?

In my opinion it was a great convention. Hats off to HMGS Staff!

Summary:
Fun time
Good food for a con (the hall cow better than hall pig IMHO)

Quality people – Gamers, HMGS Staff, Gamemasters, and Venders

Good organization – fast and well run

The Host stinks, but it always has and it does not stop the fun (stay someplace else, I did)

Too many choices and not enough time

Too many stairs at the Host – problems for the less mobile!

We are coming back!

"Just to be clear, your stats above OMIT all the FOW/ancients/renaissance, etc tournament stuff, correct?"

Correct. I posted the stats I have.

Duncan

Just out of curiosity …. has anyone ever compiled stats on those that have attended, as to where they may have traveled from to attend? OR .. has anyone compiled stats on the vendors as well, where they came from (what location/state do they reperesent)? I realize yall may have out of country attendees, which is why I am curious, as how far do folks come to attend this convention? along with where do the majoruty of attendees come from. It would interesting data to see.

Cheers!
-Troy

Those that register are entered into the database. I use to compile once a year where all the folks were from the membership list and the attendee list but I do not plan on doing so this year.
VR
James Mattes

Is there no way to display just the overall stats, so that folks can see how far others have travelled?
for example:
N Carolina …… 40
South Carolina .. 23
New Jersey …… 600
Alaska……….. 2
etc..

That along with other information I would be interested in knowing…especially if it means I can get to know other folks in my area that I dont already know.

"""Those that register are entered into the database. I use to compile once a year where all the folks were from the membership list and the attendee list but I do not plan on doing so this year."""

Hey James!…
ya know… I would be interested in just knowing the "how many's from where" information .. not actual names, would it be possible to pass along that info? I can probably set up a chart for ya, that would show how many from what areas attend (radius , 10 mile, 20 mile…etc…, from convention) or even in what direction (in 45 degree increments) Just to give a better feel of who attends, in more mass. Curious to know where the majority of folks stem from that actually attend. Other than EAST! lol

Cheers!
-Troy

"ya know… I would be interested in just knowing the "how many's from where" information .. not actual names, would it be possible to pass along that info? I can probably set up a chart for ya,"

Troy,

Send your email address to events@historicon.org and I will send you an excel file with the zip code (and only the zip code) of every attendee.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Hey ya Duncan!
email sent. Thanks! Will that include vendors? Not sure I can make a go of Foreign Country zip codes, would it be possible to just get their respective country names? Thanks again!

-Troy

"SciFi, fantasy, VSF and Pulp account for 125 games or ~18%. I wish it wasn't that high, but it is."

Duncan, I hope this comment was because you want even more historical and not less SF / Fantasy?

*** I am one of those who think HISTORICON should be historical. As such I believe that it would be better if alt games were below 10%. That said, let me restate that no HMGS rules require me or allow me to turn away games. And let me add that I do not want either the requirement nor the authority -- I am going to schedule every game that comes in until space runs out.

None of the stats count the pick up games or the board games or the cancelled (and not announced) games as far as I can see. Most importantly I saw a lot of gamers having fun!

*** Getting numbers on unscheduled games would be near impossible. Some of them get in the on site book if the GM asks to have space assigned, but many just set up in the flea market after hours or other open spaces. Similarly with cancellations -- some GMs report to the desk many do not (or cannot).

*** The best metric is the number of games in the program, because that is where we have history. True the addendum, on site cancellations and pick up games change the numbers, but in reality those numbers are too small to impact the trend data.

Also, think about this one: If you decide to impose game standards i.e. historical only or limit games, who gets to decide what qualifies? I bet we could not even agree on a definition of historical?

*** We'd never get agreement in a million years. Some would only limit SciFi and Fantasy. I agree with John N Holly that Pulp and VSF are in the same category (that's one reason I listed them this year), but not everyone would. Some would say that wild west and pirates are not historical games, others would disagree. There are even those who would define historical games only as exact representations of actual historical events and would say that hypothetical scenarios are not. This whole thing is a tar pit we'd be better off not entering.

We plan to run both historical and SF next year as well if allowed?

*** Bring 'em on! As I said above, I'll take them until I run out of room. But get them in early to be safe -- we open for business the day after Cold Wars.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

"Hey ya Duncan!
email sent. Thanks! Will that include vendors? Not sure I can make a go of Foreign Country zip codes, would it be possible to just get their respective country names? Thanks again!"

I do not have the dealer address in the database, but the are listed in the program.

Yes, I will include the countries.

Duncan

Troy you can download (copy) the vendor list off the Hcon website. Then you can extract the state locations.

Duncan, I think he is only looking for the states and you should be able to extract that column from the database as well.

I do not have the database Troy so I can not do it.
VR
James Mattes