"Historicon attendance down?" Topic

I haven't been to a Historicon in 5 years, until this year. I was really shocked at the changes since I had been there last (and this was the 4th one I've attended overall).

The number of games and players seemed to be way down from what I remember from past conventions. I remember on Fridays and Saturdays in particular, it used to be hard to walk around and see the games there were so many people milling about; this year was stark in comparison. That's not to say that there were not still a wide number of games to play and lots of people, but that it seemed like attendance was way down from years' past. One bright spot IMO was the number of kids and younger gamers was healthy in contrast; also the number of fantasy games as a percentage of the whole was WAY UP, maybe at the expense of Civil War and Napoleonics. My imagination?

I think the venue has spread out, with more people playing games in more remote areas. But, it did seem more sparse than usual.

Brent

Distelfink is never as crowded as it used to be but I think that is because there are other rooms available. It seemed that the parking lots were more full than ever. I doubt that the overall number of participants or games has decreased at all. I'm sure there will be several "Historicon" attendance threads in other sections for people to argue on until the official numbers are published.

I did see quite a few fantasy games too. I think they aim to limit non-historical to 10% of the games which seems reasonable to me given the nature of the convention.

I did not see the numbers from the organization (Maybe I will hit Bill up for them this week) as they have kind of gotten away from doing the count since I do not ask anymore. I do known that Duncan last year changed the number of tables in the Distlefink and there are one or two rows less. They (Duncan and the other two Events guys for the conventions) are doing a better job at sked then in the past in part do the the work of Geoff and Dan from a few years back.

Now a big qualifier. I was NOT up there until Sunday but I did speak to a whole lot of folks.

Sunday was pretty good in the vendor hall from what I could tell from the foot traffic. I parked Sunday at 8AM in the grass by the vendor hall. Game wise I saw only about 8 games in the distlefink going on at 12:45. That is about normal.

I was suprised at the Flea Market on Sunday. I estimate 20-30 tables in use for guys and there was some good stuff to be had.

I am posting a AAR on my shopping on this board today as well.
VR
James Mattes

The number of games and players seemed to be way down from what I remember from past conventions.

Distelfink on Saturday early evening had maybe 25% (if that) of the tables used for games. Seemed much lower, espeically for a prime time gaming time slot.

Other rooms were equally vacant. The room our game club used to have for its venue (for which we were told that we needed to fill all time slots…about 36 games!) was empty late Saturday afternoon and evening!

The con seemed a little "lame" as compared to cons past and I missed maybe only six or seven Historicons in the past 25 years.

I am rethinking whether I want to attend as long and as much as I have in the past. Maybe an overnight instead of the entire time?

I wanted to be there, but my son was born on Friday, so it wasn't gonna happen.

(Like how I worked that in?) ;)

Grats syr8766!!!

Greg

I don't know about attendence being down, but my minions were running games all day Friday and all day Saturday (and I even managed to run one on Saturday night). And we were packed for each game. Usualy had at least two-three walk ups looking to get in if they could. It worked out well for us as I make sure everyone runnign my games knows to plan for walk-ups so they have at least two extra factions ready to go.

I found it amusing that I was told that I could not have the spot I had at Cold Wars (at the bottom of the stairs) because that was prime space and they wanted it for Historical games only. Yet, on Saturday, only one game ran there all day and it was a King Kong game. It was simply wasted space when there could have been an enthusiastic group there for two days.

Rich

"The number of games and players seemed to be way down from what I remember from past conventions."

I don't know the attendance numbers, yet. However, Games were up 27% from the previous high in 2006 using the program listing as the reference point. That's 702 up from 552. Cancellations ran a bit higher, but not enough to significantly change the proportions.

Again, I don't have a head count, but since most of the games I saw were full and I didn't get complaints from GM's unable to get games played, I think we had enough players for the 27% more games. Now that might be people staying longer, or more of them playing than before. I'm not trying to suggest attendance increase proportional to games.

"I remember on Fridays and Saturdays in particular, it used to be hard to walk around and see the games there were so many people milling about; this year was stark in comparison."

It is not as hard to walk around because we're worked hard to make it easier to walk around. Starting with HISTORICON 2006 we cut the tables in the Distlefink from 45 to 36 and removed several tables in other rooms that were tight beyond comfort and safety.

At this point, Distlefink isn't event the big room anymore -- the Showroom has more tables by a few.

We've been able to do this by making more efficient use of other space (ex., 10 tables in Wheatland which used to be wasted on registration) and the fortuitous expansion the Host's meeting spaces (ex., conversion of the gift shop to the Lancaster room).

Duncan Adams
Event Manager, HISTORICON 2006-2007

John N Holly wrote:
"The room our game club used to have for its venue (for which we were told that we needed to fill all time slots…about 36 games!)

Who told you this?
It wasn't me.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

I also thought the Distlefink room was a bit sparse on Saturday night. But I happened to wander over the the Lampeter and saw at least 20 games going on---not counting the tournament. The Lampeter was cool and well lit.

Mike

Well that is good news, Duncan. Concur that there was no problem getting enough gamers/event from what I could tell. When you can only sign up for 1 game per day, a lot of gamers patrol the set-up's waiting to get into the action like I do and the opposite is true. GMs are usually pretty good at letting more players into the games, but I also concur with John N Holly – a very large % of the tables were empty during peak times. In the end, as long as the Host is happy and there are enough games, we will come (unless we're taking the stragegic view of bringing more gamers into the hobby like Syr8766).

"but I also concur with John N Holly – a very large % of the tables were empty during peak times."

Don't you see the inherent contraction? At the peak times very few tables are empty. I think people are seeing empty tables where they think the peaks should be.

Please remember that we had 150 tables set up for gaming. Even if at any given time you see, hypothetically, 1/3 are empty, that's still 100 active games.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

[Games were up 27% from the previous high in 2006 using the program listing as the reference point. ]

I made several trips to the flea market and was surprised that I could navigate without trouble. Usually it's elbow-to-elbow in there.

One thing I noticed was the proliferation of little mini-games (somebody running a dozen or more little half-hour demo games of a new system, on a teeny board, with maybe 1 or 2 players each time.

There's nothing wrong with that, obviously, but it's a bit disingenuous to count them as "games" in the same sense as a traditional big-board with a dozen players.

I had the same impression as many others: strangely sparse attendance on Saturday.

The dealer area was nicely stocked, though – thank God they fixed the A/C after Thursday!

"One thing I noticed was the proliferation of little mini-games (somebody running a dozen or more little half-hour demo games of a new system, on a teeny board, with maybe 1 or 2 players each time."

"There's nothing wrong with that, obviously, but it's a bit disingenuous to count them as "games" in the same sense as a traditional big-board with a dozen players."

Of the ~150 games added tis year ~60 were short demos -- but that kind of game has been part of the mix for a while.

But even if you throw them out we're still up 90 over the previous high -- about 16% in "real" games. The original poster's claim that games are down from 5 years ago (~500 games) is off the mark.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Saturday morning's flea market was a crush fr at least the first hour and a half, difficult to stop and look at iems on a table.

From what it looked like in the Distlefink Room, fewer games but more players at each game being played. In the past, most games seemed in the 6-10 participant range; seemed like this year the majority of thegames in the room were 12 plus players. The Showroom had a lot of games and the participant count per game was similiar. At 8:15 on Saturday, we had to park in the lot behind the split rail fence to unlaod for a game in the Showroom, the parking lots all the way around were full.

More games in the smaller rooms do make the larger rooms less crowded. Still, they a plenty noisy.

Grats syr8766! Well worth missing Historicon.

This was my first Historicon and I must say, it is the largest convention I have ever been to. I've been to sci-fi conventions, baseball conventions and even a convention for artists (dragged by relatives but I found comfort in the area for Movie Prop Artists). Still, I have never seen so many people, so many tables, so many vendors!!!!

As Sam told me it would be, it was "awe inspiring." I am already planning to go back next year and stay the entire weekend. Probably drop another $200-300 (not including hotel, food and gas). This time I only stayed Saturday and Sunday. Saturday I watched a bunch of WWII and AWI games, played the Might and Reason game in Distlefink (and it was a REALLY good game), went to check out the flea market and finally headed down to the dealer's hall where I spent $100. USD Then on Sunday I spent the rest of the day in the dealer's hall and spent another ~$150. I was just disappointed that nobody was announcing the winner of the painting raffle at the time it was supposed to be announced. We called it quits around 11:00 and headed home.

I like when the Distlefink is so crowded I can feel the next guy's bad breath on my shoulder or I can hear a silent but deadly and take in the full aroma I like it when I have to lower my elbows to get to my models on the table.

Who in their right mind would complain about there being space where you game??? Only a TMPer.

As to mini games, I like to run them until all my player's either urinate in their pants or collapse from exhaustion. Either one is acceptable as a small signal as to the weakness of their bladder or their lack of stamina.

The Flea Market-terrible. When it isn't so tight that I can't get bounced from belly to belly and engulfed in the sweet putrid smell of 3 day old perpiration, I am truly disappointed. Space is any aisle should be banned.

Fall In is only four months away…

I would have said attendance was up from the last two years.

At times in the past couple of years there were BIG dead spells in the dealers hall. This year, despite the lack of air conditioning for many of the days I only noticed a span of about 30 minutes for the whole show. Sure there were a couple of 5 minute spots here and there but there was only about 30 minutes where I didn't see a TON of people milling around.

I would have guess that attendance was up by about 25%.

[Who in their right mind would complain about there being space where you game??? Only a TMPer.]

Did someone complain? I must have missed that.

Did someone complain? I must have missed that.

I felt it was somewhat of a complaint from the tone and from the following:

That's not to say that there were not still a wide number of games to play and lots of people, but that it seemed like attendance was way down from years' past. One bright spot IMO was the number of kids and younger gamers was healthy in contrast

Complaint or not, does it really matter much?

I had a blast at my first Historicon and I'm going to try and make Fall-In.

Thanks for putting together a great show. Next time, I'll game.

Who told you this?
It wasn't me.

No, I don't think it was you. One of the reasons why our club (140+ list members in Northern NJ) stopped running so many historical games is that the politics involved in securing a separate room was just too much of a hassle for each of the conventions. We wanted to get a regular club room, even if sharing it with the other NJ groups (several hundred members combined). This was back in 2004-2005. But, alas it was all for naught. We tried to discuss this in the past, but it fell on the usual deaf ears. Now, few, if any, in the club have an interest in running games.

As far as attendance and games, I had the impression that at least by late afternoon and early evening on Saturday, there were far fewer games being offered, as compared to other years. The con fizzled out earlier than usual, or so it seemed to this veteran convention goer. I generally enjoy Historicon and the other conventions-- I try to attend them all. I used to run quite a few games in the past as well. But this Historicon seemed a little "lame" to me. That's all. No offense intended.

And, numbers aren't everything. Every years it seems that the HMGS folks talk about numbers. They start adding new categories, etc. Attendance numbers don't mean a thing if the quality and variety of games aren't there. I would suggest that more effort be placed on quality and variety of games (there must be someway to promote this aspect) over simple numbers.

At 8:15 on Saturday, we had to park in the lot behind the split rail fence to unlaod for a game in the Showroom, the parking lots all the way around were full.

That old facilities/location issue. Well, the powers that be have dictated that the Host is it, so parking will be a real problem until numbers drop off due to inconvenience.

More games in the Showroom is not the answer. It is not an easy room to navigate to see what is being offered. I only wandered up there once, and decided (after climbing the stairs) not to even navigate the maze that is the Showroom.

Not to start another round, but stick the Ancients tourneys up there, and let the "Participation" games be easily available for all to see.

"As far as attendance and games, I had the impression that at least by late afternoon and early evening on Saturday, there were far fewer games being offered, as compared to other years. The con fizzled out earlier than usual, or so it seemed to this veteran convention goer."

OH KRIPES! THIS ONE AGAIN!

We read this here EVERY year. Ain't so -- I have the data.

Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening and Sunday games have increased EVERY year since 1995 -- as far back as I have programs to count games in.

Impressions are fine, but they don't jibe with the numbers.

Duncan Adams
Events Manager, HISTORICON 2006-2007
Anal Retentive Data Monger

Only attending a half dozen shows, it is hard to say that there is a particular trend. I had attended for 19 straight years. The Historicon convention is always improving in many ways.

Allowing Fantasy gamers to grow would not have been my preferred choice. They have plenty of major shows that they already dominate. And historical gaming is allowed but not often encouraged at some of the Fantasy/SciFi events.

Historicon seems to handling that touchy issue well.

"More games in the Showroom is not the answer."

Over 1/4 of the available table space at the Host is in the Showroom. To put it plainly, HISTORICON at the Host is impossible without filling the Showroom or turning away a lot of games.

I prefer the former, and, believe it or not, a lot of GMs like the Showroom.

"Not to start another round, but stick the Ancients tourneys up there, and let the "Participation" games be easily available for all to see."

For a lot of reasons, some good some not so good, the tournaments (unless the Armati guys who loved it come back) will not be in the Showroom. This is a dead letter.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

"OK, where are the numbers? Where's the beef? Numbers, breakdowns between types and varieties?"

I just spent 500+ hours over the last 4 months scheduling events, and the last 5 days putting out fires.

I'm tired -- go dig out your old programs and count em yourself.

Duncan

…and let's not forget the long list of canceled games. Programs are meaningless if many games get canceled. Do you have the figures on how many games were "officially" canceled? How about games that simply did not take place, which is the case for a Saturday evening game I wanted to try (not even listed on the canceled games list in the lobby in front of the Distelfink--just a no show)?

All right Duncan, you win. We're all wrong. It was the best Historicon ever; the best and best-attended possibly imaginable (until next year's, which of course will be even bigger and better!!!)

Please forgive us for musing out loud about the empty tables! Please forgive us for making any observations that might be construed as "complaints." I promise that I won't ever question the superb perfection of HMGS ever, ever again!

How we could ever have doubted it, I don't know. But please ignore the observations of all the dues-paying members and attendees; it is only Your Word that matters!

[Bows obsequiously, leaves chamber in abject humiliation.]

"All right Duncan, you win. We're all wrong. It was the best Historicon ever; the best and best-attended possibly imaginable (until next year's, which of course will be even bigger and better!!!)"

Please forgive us for musing out loud about the empty tables! Please forgive us for making any observations that might be construed as "complaints." I promise that I won't ever question the superb perfection of HMGS ever, ever again!"

How we could ever have doubted it, I don't know. But please ignore the observations of all the dues-paying members and attendees; it is only Your Word that matters!"

Very graciously put. But if you choose to read my answering "impressions" with numbers in this fashion go ahead.

How you interpreted anything I said to mean what you have attributed to me here is beyond my grasp.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Over 1/4 of the available table space at the Host is in the Showroom. To put it plainly, HISTORICON at the Host is impossible without filling the Showroom or turning away a lot of games.

Sure that may be the "answer" but what is the question:

"Where is the least player friendly space to host games?"

"I see. You state that you have the numbers but now are unwilling to share. I do not keep old programs, as I'm sure few do."

I'd be perfectly willing to share if it didn't involve typing 13 years worth of data into this tiny box.

Besides you've already said the program is meaningless (nice pat on the back to guys who did a lot of hard work, BTW) so you seem prepared to dismiss any numbers I'd post before I post them.

Send me your email address, JNH, and I'll send you my spread sheets.

Duncan

"Sure that may be the "answer" but what is the question:

"Where is the least player friendly space to host games?"

It depends who you ask. For each room in the Host there are GMs who ask to be in it and GMs who ask to be elsewhere.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Event Manager

Don't get me worng, I've attended HMGS-E cons for more than a decade, and I think things have been run increasingly smoother.

For me (and to somewhat echo John's thoughts), there is nothing more "special" about Historicon than Cold Wars or Fall In! anymore, except for the attendance of a handful of "H-Con Only" vendors (Eureka, Shadowforge, Pulp, etc.) that make it worth the effort to attend (given there are many summer family activities going on)

Besides you've already said the program is meaningless (nice pat on the back to guys who did a lot of hard work, BTW) so you seem prepared to dismiss any numbers I'd post before I post them.

Nope. Did not say that at all. The program was very good. I said that the numbers simply based on the programs--without data about canceled games and "no shows"--would not be dispositive as to the issue of total games actually run. You are the one asserting that the numbers will demonstrate that the impressions of a few here about a paucity of games on Saturday evening, etc. are incorrect AND that you have the nubmers to back your statement up. All I asked is do you have those numbers, including whether they have cancelations and no shows?

BTW, I agree with PPhalen that the conventions have been getting better and better in terms of how they are conducted and most especially registration. I do not want to come off as complaining. I just made an observation and based on considerable experience at attending and running games almost since the inception of Historicon.

Duncan, thank you for your effort (and your assistants') in putting together Historicon. I had a wonderful time and greatly appreciate the work invested.

"PS – I have to admit that this argument about what we saw with our own eyes is Bleeping me off more than I thought it would."

I wasn't complaining. I was just discussing with other people about attendance and our impressions."

I didn't say that you, or anybody else was complaining. In fact, even if you were I didn't say you had no right to do so. This thread started with a question about game and attendance numbers. I started by saying that I do not have attendance numbers and cannot answer that question at this time.

While Otto is right, the cancellations change the answer, I do have the best numbers there are on games, and I have attempted to answer the original question.

"But this arrogant "How Dare You Do Anything Other Than Praise Us!" really torques me."

What did I say that remotely fits this description? I didn't challenge anybody's right to discuss, muse, ask questions or make observations. I simple attempted to answer the central question of the thread.

If you'd prefer the visual observations over the numbers ignore the numbers. I don't see any reason to get torqued.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Otto? OK, forget all that I said. If you mistake me for Otto then I've lost the argument. You win.

Forget my observations. Great convention.

"Otto? OK, forget all that I said. If you mistake me for Otto then I've lost the argument. You win. laugh"

Sorry. Typo.

Duncan

Phew. You had me worried.

Yeah, same here as the two posters above. I know how difficult it is to set up conventions; I've volunered to help set up professional society meetings, and the logistics are total pain. My woman works for a company with a whole group of "party planners"; these folks get paid full time salaries for doing this sort of thing. I was not trying to slam anyone; I too am a HUGE fan of HMGS, and don't care AT ALL for the politics either. I just noticed LOTS of empty tables, that's all. I did notice that the old registration room was the new FOW room, that's a great thing. It would be interesting to see metrics of actual games run vs. players, however, since I seemed to have a particularly hard time squeezing into games compared to years' past. That is one reason I think its critical to allow the pulp and fantasy games along with the historical.

It depends who you ask. For each room in the Host there are GMs who ask to be in it and GMs who ask to be elsewhere.

God love em, then.
I make it up to the Showcase room about once a con. I tend to find it anoying to have to "work the maze" to see the various games going on, but maybe the GMS who "ask" for the room like that sort of isolation?

To reiterate, I can only imagine how demanding your job is (having corrdinated one-day, 20-30 event cons, that is all I can do is imagine!) and appreciate the work that goes into it.

Several of the ideas posted here (BIGGER signs to what areas are what, arrows to areas, etc.) will only help people navigate the con, and get a better grasp of how many games are really being played.

"Yeah, same here as the two posters above. I know how difficult it is to set up conventions; I was not trying to slam anyone."

Shawnzeppi,

No intent to slam was perceived. You asked a legitimate question. I gave the best answer available at this moment.
(And between you me and the lamppost, if I hadn't answered, HMGS East would be getting flamed for stonewalling by now.)

If you have been away for 5 years, a lot has changed -- a lot changed THIS year. Was your last Hcon 2002? Let me know. Later in the week when I get recovered I'll try to post some simple numbers on games and tables 2002 vs 2007.

"It would be interesting to see metrics of actual games run vs. players"

I have already billed myself as an "anal retentive data monger," so nobody would like to have this data more than I would. But it does not exist and we're not likely to get it short of several volunteers to run around all weekend to get it.

JNH is correct about the role of cancellation numbers. There are 2 problems though. First we can only count the games _reported_ canceled. We can't even guess how many we miss. The other is that HMGS East doesn't keep long term records on cancellations -- or even games.

All the data that exists is out there is on the bookshelves of the few nerds (me among them) who hold their programs. While because of cancellations the numbers are not exact, they do have the advantage of letting us compare apples to apples to apples over the years. I think this provides pretty good trend data. Regardless, it is the best data we have.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2007 Events Manager

Howdy,

Yeah, the D-Room seemed *way* down from previous years, but then organizers are using rooms now that I didn't even know the Host HAD! :)

With some of the new spacing, a lot of the con was more spead out and parts did look inactive, but it seemd that there was stuff going on and people having a blast.

The Dealer's Room looked crowded on all the days, the the Flea Market was the usual sweaty press (with some GREAT deals). All-in-all, a great show.

Ken

There were more games that I wanted to play than I could play.

My only real disappointment was the lack of a 'Games at a Glance' like last year. With 700+ games and several showing up after the PEL, this made life harder on me finding all the hidden gems.

My recommendation is to have a photocopied and stapled list separate from the Con program. I would think this would be cheaper than printing it in the PEL, and would require less lead time before the Con. More so, it could be automated with a program somebody, namely me, could probably write, given some sort of electronic access to the Con program. I'm not an HMGS East member, but I would be very willing to investigate this possibility if anybody is interested. Just PM me.

Gentlemen, may I make a suggestion?

Caveat: I was not at this Historicon. The last one I was at, as best I recollect, was in 1984. I haven't been a member of HMGS-East for years, and I'm no longer a member of any HMGS chapter, Therefore: in this "fight", I have no dog.

The best time to discuss this may not be the evening of the last day of the show, especially when the events manager is undoubtedly worn out and cross-eyed. Point taken about the perceived need to respond, however.

Why doesn'teverybody get a goodnight's sleep, hugging their purchases tight, and take this up after a brief pause to reflect? Y'all have been real good about taking offense (at least not too seriously), but somebody might just be too tires, and snap.

Oh, heck: by now the East Coast guys are probably asleep already, anyway. Just keep in mind that you've got from now until the buzz begins for Fall In to gnaw the bones of Historicon.

For me personally, spacing things out sounds like a darn good thing: I hate crowds. So from what I've read here today, there's a better chance I might make it next year.

Allen