"Florian Geyer" Topic

hi
i was wondering what the best way to represent this unit, my concern would be that if i only have cavalry, any unit with tanks etc. will run over the top of it

cheers
jon

'Cavalry' in WW2 were mounted infantry with the normal proportions of supporting heavy weapons, artillery, AT guns, engineers etc. Enemy armour can run over these no more easily than any other infantry division.

Florien Geyer was pretty heavily armed for a cavalry division with a Stug Battalion, Flak Battalion and an SP Panzerjager battalion was well as motorised engineers. Its artillery support was weak though, only five batteries to support the five cavalry battalions.

It had as many tanks and SP guns as a panzergrenadier division, which is effeectively what it was, although the infantry rode horses.

so what i should do is base it on a panzer grenadier unit minus the transport give everyone a horse and that would be about right

cheers
jon

I don't have the internal organisation for the cavalry battalions to hand, they are covered by the usual OB sources though and I'm not sure if they had two LMGs per section (fairly sure they didn't). Florian Geyers 'Stug' battalion had a mixture of Stugs, Pz IIIs and Pz IVs.

next issue would they operate a man squad with two being left as horse holders or are the horses tied to trees etc.
jon

In 28mm scale, I would run them as a normal SS platoon and throw in a squad or so of cavalry figures to simulate occasional mounted movement. At this scale they probably wouldn't be mounted on the battlefield very often and one could assume that the horses were off-board tied to a tree, etc. I can't say for a fact, but I would imagine that they left people to "tend" the horses. Florain G would be a fun unit to run an anti-partizan game against in this scale as they were involved in that sort of operation early-mid war. Although if I recall correctly they were wiped out nearly to the last man late war in one of Hitler's ridiculous "not one step back" orders.

AX

hi, the games we run are at 10mm and usually represent a company of men at 1:1 scale with some support from other areas such as some tanks or arty etc, which is why before i go and buy some figures i wold like the facts, as theres no point in putting together a nice loooking army all mounted and dismounted for it to get panned every week

cheers
jon

Florian Geyer got more or less wiped out at Budapest in 45. Their remnants ( and those of the other SS cavalry division – Maria Theresa ) were attempting a breakout but got caught by artillery. They were equipped with Italian M14 and M15 tanks and some Semovente SPs. I don't think they had any cavalry on the breakout attempt.

In that scale, I would get a few mounted figures for the look of it (maybe one platoon's worth) and a few stands of horses with holders (for the same reason we buy trucks that should never be used in combat).

link

link

For tactical unit organization, it might be wise to invest in this:

link

…or in this:

link

Both are recommended. I have used both in building representative units from SS-Kavallerie-Division "Anne Frank's Little Pony".

Allen

Play in swamps and forests.

Or at least read about where German cavalry units were actually employed.

Allen

Allen, you talk as if you're making progress with your SS Kavallerie Division… When do we get to see some pictures?

;-)

Don.

<quote>
Both are recommended. I have used both in building representative units from SS-Kavallerie-Division "Anne Frank's Little Pony".
</quote>

Hahahaha! That one about had me spitting my water on the monitor. :D

"When do we get to see some pictures?"

When I get around to taking some! There's a lot of stuff in the queue to photograph first: Italians, Hungarians, Brits…

Allen

Did a really enjoyable Russian partisan hunting game in 1/35, with about 50 German Cavalry figures, (mounted and dis) and truck convoys, russian armoured cars, horse holders etc, for Crossfire.
Great fun, and different tactical problems.
As said, read up on Cavalry deployment and go for it!

John

I was all ways under the impression that FG was a anti- partisain unit rather than a front line unit at least until the debacle at Budapest. If you want something to kill poorly equiped partasians then go with the cavalry. If you want to stop tanks why not just go with a panzer division? or if your looking for something unusal why not try 78 strum division they were supposed to be pretty tasty.

Jon

i have the axis cavalry ospry, but it doest really breakdown how the unit fought i assumed they would have fought like dragoons on foot but didn't know how they would fight ie. how many horse holders etc per squad. i imagined it would be 1 per section

the reason for this is just to be different from armoured grenadiers. next question waffenfabe would be yellow what about sp guns crew etc

cheers

jon

"impression that FG was a anti- partisain "

Not really, as 1st SS Cavalry brigade it took part in the invasion of Poland eventually reaching division size in 1942, and fought almost continuously on the eastern front. It was destroyed in the Rzhev salient in 1942 as well as in Budapest. It no doubt did do some anti-partisan work, in between being destroyed.

There were however lots of SS cavalry divisions of various types (the majority cossacks), some of whom spent a lot of their time engaged in unsavoury activities.

Eh… as SS-Kavallerie-Regiment and -Brigade, it did little *but* "anti-partisan" (a sanitized term) operations in the marshes through the end of '41.

Before going too far in glorifying the combat record of this outfit or mischaracterising its "antipartisan" role, consider the following from the official record of its commander during that period, Hermann Fegelein [from Andreas Schulz et al., "Die Generale der Waffen-SS und Polizei, Band I"]:

17.07.1941 Assigned as tactical and operational subordinate to the HSSPF "Russland-Mitte" (Erich von dem Bach) for the systematic combing of the Pripet Marshes (known as the "Pripjet-Aktion"). After completion of the first stage of this action, Fegelein reported the shooting of 13,788 Jews and "Soldaten in Zivil" ("soldiers in civilian clothes"). From late-08.1941 to 13.09.1941, all Jewish men (a combined total of 3,500) in the Rogatschew region were reported shot.

27.07.1941 Issued Regiments-Befehl (Regimental Order) Nr. 42 to SS-Kavallerie-Regiment. This order included the following statements: "Jews are for the most part to be treated as looters"; "Women and children are to be dispersed"; "Russian soldiers in civilian clothing as well as looters plus armed civilians and saboteurs are to be summarily shot under the direction of an officer".

02.08.1941 – 01.05.1942 Kommandeur of the SS-Kavallerie-Brigade (officially authorized by Himmler on 02.08.1941, the Brigade became operational with effect from 01.09.1941). First holder of this post. Succeeded by Willi Bittrich. Wounded in action by Soviet snipers, 21.12.1941 and 22.12.1941. His second wound resulted in severe blood loss, and he was hospitalized until 04.1942. He was temporarily succeeded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Karl Liecke, then by Gustav Lombard (from 06.03.1942 – 18.04.1942). The SS-Kavallerie-Brigade was designated "SS-Reiterbrigade Fegelein" during his absence.

18.09.1941 Submitted a summary report concerning pacification by the SS-Kavallerie-Brigade of the Pripet Marshes. The following statistics were presented: Looters shot – 14,178 [remember: "looters" = Jews], Partisans shot – 1001, Red Army shot – 699, Prisoners taken – 830.

24.09.1941 – 26.09.1941 Participant and lecturer in an instructional course on combating partisans offered by General der Infanterie z.V. Max von Schenckendorff (Commander of the Rear Army Area, Central Russian Front), Mogilew. The course was also attended by Erich von dem Bach and Arthur Nebe). In the course of this training, participants observed a demonstration killing of about 30 Jews in the town of Knjashizy by members of Einsatzkommando 8 and Polizei-Bataillon 322 on 25.09.1941.

28.09.1941 After his return from the anti-partisan instructional course, issued SS-Kavallerie-Brigadebefehl (SS Cavalry Brigade Order) Nr. 8. The order stated: "Cooperation with the SD is therefore ordered under all circumstances" and "Where units are quartered within a community for longer periods, Jewish districts or ghettos to be used without exception in case these cannot be cleared [liquidated] immediately. Signed Fegelein".

If one really wants to get into the details of the unit during this period, invest in Yerger's "Riding East".

Allen

Fegelein's subsequent CV as commander of the now-reconstituted division shows that in 1943, the unit wasn't just valiantly resisting the Red hordes, wither:

20.04.1943 – 01.11.1943 Kommandeur of SS-Kavallerie-Division (redesignated 8.SS-Kavallerie-Division "Florian Geyer" on 23.10.1943). Although appointed with effect from 20.04.1943, he did not actually report for duty until 14.05.1943. He was Succeeded by August Zehender who had been standing in for the permanent commander, Fritz Freitag (who was ill). Again wounded in action during fighting south of Kharkov on 09.09.1943 and succeeded by Bruno Streckenbach who took official command of the Division on 01.11.1943.

27.05.1943 – 10.06.1943 Directed the SS-Kavallerie-Division in Unternehmen "Weichsel" (Operation"Vistula") within the wet triangle of the Dnjepr-Pripjet southwest of Gomel. During this operation, Fegelein oversaw the killing of 4,018 persons, the deportation of 18,860 laborers (10,422 of these by the SS-Kavallerie-Division), the confiscation of 21,000 head of cattle, and the destruction of 61 villages.

13.06.1943 – 16.06.1943 Directed the SS-Kavallerie-Division in Unternehmen "Ziethen" west of Retzhiza. During this operation, 63 villages were destroyed. Fegelein was in constant telephone contact with Hitler during Operations "Weichsel" and "Ziethen". Fegelein's telephone operator later stated that SS-Kavallerie-Division was ordered to neutralize all partisans within an area of 200 by 120 kilometers).

26.06.1943 – 27.07.1943 Directed the SS-Kavallerie-Division in Unternehmen "Seydlitz" in the area of Owrutsch-Mosyr. SS-Kavallerie-Division destroyed 96 villages and recorded 5,106 persons killed, 606 taken prisoner, 9,166 persons deported, and 19,941 head of cattle confiscated.

Allen

Piekalkiewitz book about the WWII cavalry had a number of pages about the regular German Heer early-war cavalry division TOE – I am not sure how closely the later SS-equivalents matched those.

I cannot recall the exact numbers of horse-holders for any army right now, but I think the usual practice was for one man to 3-4 horses or so.

Griefbringer

"Before going too far in glorifying the combat record of this outfit"

I would be the last one to glorify the combat record of any SS unit.

I was perhaps overly subtle in drawing the parallel between 8th SS and Sturmbrigade Dirwelanger – which also engaged in 'anti-partisan' activities between being destroyed at the front.