"Adult themes in war gaming" Topic

Why would you even ask to simulate rape on the table. When a battle is going on, you are not just going to say to your pinned-down squad, "Hey, look at that! I'm gonna go rape her. See ya guys later!". Rape deserves no place on a game table, especially not at a PUBLIC GAMING CON.

However, cold blood killing can be modelled into a game. If I had the choice to kill a few prisoners to gain +5cm movement when being chased by some angry Russians I would do it (after some fast math).

After all, there is a difference between killing a loud-mouth prisoner who is attracting the enemy's attention than raping a Soviet female sniper when you're being shot at.

Chris

I used rape as an example along with murder, gore and others such as hope, love and patriotism. Hobby Box hit it on the nose when you said if it effected a campaign. We are playing a weird war campaign in which any action good or bad reflects on the men's morale and or possible damnation or righteousness. I don't game rape but if a unit was know to have done it their opponents would probably show no mercy when confronting them and those who did it would develop a rep that those individuals within the said unit may rebel against those who did the deed and cause a rift in that said unit.Cause the lowering of morale or ever mutiny within the unit. Wouldn't the sight of an enemy soldier shooting civilians motivate your men to protect them and show no mercy to those who committed the act? It can be used as motivation to influence the reactions of those playing and how they would react to it if seen on the battlefield.

Brian

What did Cap and Bucky do to the guards when they found a concentration camp? How did Indy act when he saw children being tortured? Remember the strife within the squad in Private Ryan after they assaulted the radar site. All those horrific acts motivated and altered the otherwise normal behavior of the men involved.

Brian

Brian, you've read what the majority thinks, and you're still trying to justify your "game". So, why exactly did you ask for opinions here on TMP, if you're not going to change your attitude anyway?

OK, go for it, make your strange little weird war game, but I'll never play it.

I endorse Margetes7 viewpoint. I enjoy John Norman's books but as pornography not gaming material.

I opened to the pictures of Leopold's Ghosts and wept at a picture of a father sitting on his porch next to the severed hand and foot of his five year old daughter.

War is many things. I am gaming the heroic and the honorable, sometimes the comedic, and am not going to focus on the evil and criminal which almost always accompanies them.

I play warGAMES to have fun. Simple as that. I see absolutley no need to model these sorts of things on the table top.

@Brian, you just don't get it. Yes elements of Rape, Child Abuse, and Violence does indeed change or have an effect on military tactics.

Yes we game military tactics.

Yes we have fun gaming military tactics.

NO WE DON"T WANT TO GAME RAPE!!!!!!!!!!
GET IT!
GOT IT!
GOOD!

I have a hard enough time trying to defend elements of this hoby to my freinds, family and co-workers this is something I do not want to have to explain.

This is similar to those computer game morons who made the JFK Assissination game or a School first person shooter. Sure some of us with an open or sick mind may snicker at them and perhaps even just try it for S&Gs just like some people might try out a "rape chart." In the grand sceme of things these people would not be serious enough to actully buy rules that use these elements.

But if you want to keep pusing the point we will keep making fun of you.

Meh.
If it works for you and your group, go for it. Horror RPGs are full of this stuff, as are the mass media.

I wouldn't go springing it on unsuspecting strangers, though.
-Kle.

From an internal perspective, what do you get out of wargaming? Do you get an endorphin rush when the rules are SO incredibly specific as to include whether the officer of the day went #1 or #2 immediately before his watch? Whether Sven raped the 11 yr old farmer's daughter once or twice -- during or after the rush of battle?

I know few people who really enjoy rules that are that detailed. From my own perspective, it just slows down a perfectly good game and encourages nit-pickers to nit-pick the rules some more!

Now from an external perspective, how do you all feel about the fact that this hobby has some PR problems? Everyone's aware, right, that folks who don't 'get' wargaming think we're all re-enacting battles, trying to make them come out differently in the past, or getting high on the violence. They don't get that wargaming is abstracted from real battle.

Now I'm thinking a minority of this crowd doesn't get it either. Wargaming is an abstract. That's what makes it a game; that's what makes it fun.

That's me, thinking logically, though. My gut reaction? "Creepy!" Well said, margetes7!

Key word in all this is GAME.
I game for fun, entertainment and friendship.
Looking at well painted armies on a great looking table gives me a thrill.
If you choose to re-create the horror of reality, that's your choice, but for me, the above is just fine.

Some people are just sick..in it for the shock value. Won't play the game, won't play with these folks. In the end we play warGAMES. If you want to simulate sickness keep it to yourself.

I would walk away from a game that featured rape as a goal. I could see a game where you are a clan of cavemen and need to kidnap a bride fro the chief's daughter, that is a diferent world entirely.

I would not want these "adult" themes in my games, so no way would I participate in them nor allow them to occur on the gaming table. I don't even deal with rule options that allow for the dispatching of wounded enemy soldiers or prisoners that are in BGWWII, Squad Leader or "Nuts!" There is more value in victory in my games when the enemy is captured and not murdered while wounded or taken prisoner. I don't even allow SS troopers or Soviet troops to shoot each other's prisoners in my games even though it happened regularly on the Eastern Front. Rape in a GAME??? Absolutely freakin' NOT!

Let's face it there are some sick bastards in every walk of life and those who would want to include this kind of crap in their entertainment are indeed sick bastards!

Disgustedly
Gerry McGinty

I would avoid terms like "adult theme" or "mature subject". These are common earmarks of modern taboo content.

While I would note that certain portions of the noted product could offend anyone regardless of age, a simple reference to "simulates wartime action" or use the MPAA rating scale that everyone is familiar with.

mpaa.org/FlmRat_Ratings.asp

If a game or any material for that matter is going to convey any activity or information that is commonly accepted to be socially offensive then it should state what is the issue up front instead of hiding behind "adult content".

A fish is a fish, regardless of your intent of how to cook it or eat it.

Brian,
When you and your buddies play, use whatever you think are appropriate house rules.
If you plan on putting on a game at a local or even national con, I would reccomend that you temper them. When you submit a description, you might want to stay away from words like rape,murder and other terms which have appeared offensive to others, who by observing thier "HANDLES" make up a significant part of TMP posters.
I can tell you that I, as an organizor of conventions, would censor you if you mentioned such topics in your Gamemaster Submission. If as an organizor, I walked by your table and heard such terms, I would give you a warning and if youi persisted would ask you to close your game down.
That would probably never happen though, because we don't allow LARPS at our shows. Other shows have the same restriction and your rules sound like such.
chuck

And here when I wargame it's generally assumed these things happen. Just the whole rape thing doesn't go on during a battle, and any troops I have caught raping will be shot! Do we have to roll a percentage die to see how many troops are lost this way?

I thought it was common knowledge that zombies, like Kroot and Kra'vak are going to eat any enemy troops they kill isn't it.

Personally I find the many of the "adult" themes discussed – rape and pillage – to be juvenile tittilation.

Some things might work in context: a female partisan could have a higher chance than a male to persuade a guard to let them pass. That spills over into farce or casual sexism far too easily, which may be what you want. For example, the rules for "soiled doves" in Legends of the Old West (you can't shoot them, they sap you of your heroic abilities, only another SD can fight one) work because they match up with the Wild West stereotypes – preacher, brawler, doc – to be found in the game. It makes for genre simulation – Saturday morning cowboy serials at the movies – rather than a grimly accurate simulation of what in real life would doubtless have been a seedy, dirty, bloody little brawl.

Depends what you want from your wargaming – we tend to be more interested in tactics than the effects on individuals (otherwise "green" troops might have to pass a morale or leadership test to actually shoot the enemy – we just rate them as less effective in combat and more prone to panicking). A movie, or an RPG, would be a more appropriate place to explore your attitudes to child combatants, where you can think about the ethical dilemmas involved (they may affect a character long-term, for example, making them less effective). In a wargame, they're generally just another target that can be shot without any ethical cost to the players. Which is why I'm so uncomfortable with them, and why I tend to play SF/fantasy/horror where even humans are replaced by stereotypical monsters, or look at WWII battles rather than modern conflicts.

A REAL "adult"-themed game would be horrific:

"All your pillage goes on playing the mortgage this month, and because you had to retreat from the counter-attack, you forgot to pick up dinner from the supermarket. Roll morale to see whether you've become utterly disillusioned by the whole bloody mess, so we can test out the "mid-life crisis" rules…".

Gah--Tanuki, you beat me to it. I was going to go the route of the mortgage, credit card bills, etc. etc. etc. ;-}~

interesting debate.
I see a lot of accusations that this idea is adolescent and designed for juvenile tittilation. Of course, that is a strong element in the wargaming hobby. We play war games for the vicarious rush we get from pretending we control a battle field. I played gut shot a bit back and remember rounding a corner to trade shot gun blasts with a sheep herder at extremely close range. I was pleased as punch that he died and I survived (barely, and only for a couple turns.) That is pretty adolescent for a grown man, and one who responds to trauma as part of his career. I think these accusations are a bit of kettle, pot black syndrome.

I have, over years of gaming, seen attempt to integrate "adult themes" of sex, abuse, and wanton violence incorporated into RPG's. It is seldom done well. And there are a lot of reasons for this. The first is our common reaction to the idea of gaming such topics. That is demonstrated above. It make us very VERY uncomfortable. We acknowledge that the rape "happen", but we tend to ignore it, or gloss over it. I can certainly see your point on how it affects the overall tactics.

Same game of Gutshot, I finally make entrance to the opponents home. The scenario revolves around hired guns trying to drive sheep herders off land for some cattle men to take over. I am not one of the law abiding good guys. Inside the home we shoot the landowner, who has been killing us with a buffalo rifle at long range, and feel good about it. We are surprised that his wife is in there acting as a loader, and has a shot gun. Stand off ensues.

There are still kin folk outside. Our side has taken it pretty badly, and, though we have killed the landowner, we won't get off the land alive. Moral Dilemma. I, as a player, don't wanna shoot the woman. I did consider attempting hostage negotiations. The game doesn't model this. The threat of rape could certainly impact those negotiations. The game doesn't model this.

Every skirmish game could have such a dilemma. But modeling it might make it too much of an RPG rather than a wargame. And an RPG only needs to provide a guideline for modeling unexpected problems. I can't see much need for specific rules. That is another reason it is seldom done well.

Finally, we tend to play wargames as a very social competitive mind sport. except for the social elements, we could probably be playing Chess. The game is an abstraction, with a shared fiction coating. The abstraction may, or may not model real events. The shared fiction needs to meet the dramatic needs of the participants. And we tend to need to feel we are participating in some more noble endeavor. We tend to want to be the heroes, even if we are playing the nazis.

So, in the Gutshot game above, we were all happy to play out the shared fiction of a shoot out, but I doubt the other players would have found it comfortable if I had announced I was raping "Ma". There are groups of friends that I could push that boundary with, but these were mostly more casual gaming buddies. In an ongoing RPG setting, for example, where the players get to know each other, and the characters develop over time, the act could be seen as justified by character or even simply for dramatic exposition that drives future story lines.

I guess ultimately, I don't see developing a mechanic for rape as being a productive area of game development from a marketing standpoint. I would be curious if you could create something that worked for some of the other issues.

Okay, moratorium on the "rape" issue and I'm sorry I even threw that in as an example. I'm not suggesting that we develop some mechanic for a rape action! But, if a GM tells you, for example, "You've just encountered an SS soldier who is attempting to assault a woman…" and you react accordingly, you are changing your strategy based on an adult theme.

In context, adult issues in a game played by adults don't offend me and I was asking for your opinion. If I had ANY idea that I would be vilified as some kind of fetish creep/pornographer, I would have kept my question to myself.

I have maybe two rules on my newsgroup about monsters who "feed" on people, like an Incubus or Succubus. These are suggestions for over-the-top pulp gaming, not some handbook for a sociopath.

Game movements with these characters aren't meant to be described in macabre detail, merely something like "you have encountered an Incubus" and they proceed to attack your character. Naturally, we are aware of what that means, just as we know what it means when a zombie or vampire attacks you.

At least nobody ended up Dawghoused, which I thought was bound to happen. :) Do y'all know what they do to you in their? The beatings, the searches (Ok, so I volunteered for THOSE :) ) the baloney sandwiches with REGULAR, not deli style mustard! I'm never going back!

Brought to you by TMP DAWGHOUSE: SCARED STRAIGHT

Simulating rape, pain, trauma and destruction is not my thing. Pitting myself against an opponent in a tactical problem is. I expect the game to feature those aspects of war that I need to do that.

Bravo, Pijlie, that's well said. There are too many people I see, or actually, read, here who use the misdirected excuse, "but you are playing war and simulating killing" as an excuse to justify their preferences for things I consider in poor very poor taste (at best).

Brian, do you even read what you write or do you just like to hear the sound of your key storkes. You just said lets stop talking about rape, then you bring up the issue. . But since it is the comercial I will humor you.

Lets say the GM describes the above situation. I am at a Con, I look at the kids sitting at the table, ask him if he wants to re-describe the situation. I then leave.

Thanks Beo, I think we know your view on the topic. Like your sharp wit though.

Brian

"Bad Taste" and "Adult" are two oft mixed-up words. Some tend to think South Park or are adult even though they have less to do with adults and more to do with ten-year-old boys who've managed to make off with part of their fathers porn collection, a cigarette and some beer to meet their dodgy mates and make themselves out to be cool. I also agree that when I'm in the trajectory of a cloud of Muslim arrows I have better things to do as a Crusader than enjoy my spit-roasted pagan baby.
That said a pirate scenario could have an objective being to get to a captured ships surgeons quarters and get mercury to treat the venereal diseases that affected pirates often and caused them to run for that spot first…

I am going to point out a few things here… I hope others will understand them.

People have made a point of questioning the difference between the simulation of killing people in a wargame and that of simulating the effets of rape in a game.

The difference between the two is that Rape is recognized as being a crime that crosses a line that even murder does not. It leaves a victim with scars and violations of their sense of identity that simple violence does not.

chironex has said it best… some things are just in bad taste, and "adult themes" are best left as unspoken abstractions unless all you want to do is create a work that is in poor taste (and not even decent pornography at that).

Ask any rape victim about whether they would have rather been killed… I would be willing to bet that the vast majority would have prefered to have been killed (At least those who have not spent a huge amount of time in therapy, and anyone who is curious to ask a rape victim… I can put you in contact with one… or many)… Now, could we drop this… It is leaving me with a rather growing unpleasant feeling

I don't have anything really new to add to the conversation, but it strikes me that "adult content" rarely is anything but juvenile fantasies with a sophisticated-sounding name. I've been trying to think of an instance where graphic violence and sexual content would add anything positive to a game, but in all cases it seems that you could use tamer content and still have the game play out to a satisfactory result. Attempting to fit those things into a game is just that, an attempt to place titillating material into your game for no other reason than the excited naughty feeling you get from it, just like the feeling you had when you were in third grade and saw your friend's dad's Playboy magazines stashed in the closet.

I think I mostly agree with kogikami on this one…. That said, I would still like to understand exactly how does one model "adult" situations into WARGAME RULES?

Now fluff I can understand and I've even seen a couple of rather graphic descriptions in quite popular wargame books… Although if any of them have had anything much to do with the rules they've still boiled down to a roll or a modifier IIRC (I've even sometimes permited myself a small chuckle over "much ado about virtually nothing").

To steer kampfgruppecottrell (and the rest) away from the R word, let's use the situation in kogi's post about the character going to shoot a woman.

On the subject of shooting a woman, you have to take context into consideration. I'll use a pirate scenario as an example. For my Pirate games I have several female pirate figures, who act as regualr crewmembers. I also have miniatures that represent barmaids and the Governor's daughter.

Shooting at the female pirates is fine, as they are obviously combatants in the scenario. Shooting at the barmaids is technically allowed, but to do so would bring severe penalties to the offending player. All the NPCs would immediately gang up on the player who attacked a civilian, and more than likely the other players would join in to off the dishonorable cur. Shooting the Governor's daughter would be even worse, as the local military would probably intervene.

Kidnapping the barmaids or the Governor's daughter would be allowed, and would probably be encouraged as a source of victory points and a lead-in to further scenarios.

Acting "in character" as a pirate, such as using an activation to have your figure goose the barmaid as she walks by or stopping at the barrels of rum to have a drink (or two or three), would probably be encouraged as well. Any pirate goosing the barmaid, however, had better be prepared for her to knock him unconscious with a full mug of beer.

In any case, the storyline is driven by a few dice rolls and some movement by the characters. Historically, it could be proven that some pirates killed or had their way with kidnapped women, or that they tortured their prisoners into revealing the locations of treasures, or commited any number of other crimes and atrocities. But there doesn't seem to be any motivation for including descriptions of those things in a game unless you specifically make time to do it because you like to talk about those things or imagine your little toy soldiers doing those things. It doesn't really add anything to the game mechanics that isn't already abstracted by the rules and context of the scenario.

I think it's fair to have the option of a more adult-themed wargame if all participants agree. This should not be a "vile realism all the time" vs. "never adult themed" thing. If all adult players in a game agree to it that's fine, I doubt any miniature will get damaged by it. As for the reaction of the public, do not include nor tell them, you wouldn't include other public in many pub conversations nor you'd like them to know so neither should be with this kind of wargames.

But, if a GM tells you, for example, "You've just encountered an SS soldier who is attempting to assault a woman…" and you react accordingly, you are changing your strategy based on an adult theme.

Wrong. Whether I'm told "you've just encountered and SS soldier." or you add "attempting to assault a woman" makes absolutely no difference to my reaction. I'm playing a war game and he's the enemy. I send a round downrange hoping he catches it. I don't need any description of what he is doing. He could be taking a leak for all I care. I'm there to win the game and he's in the way of that,or is possibly the objective of the game. His actions are immaterial to my response and I don't need them described. He is in truth a marker in the game. And don't get the idea you are adding "realism" to your games with "adult themes". I have yet to meet a game that was "realistic". That's why they are called "games". You are merely adding titillation for ten year olds. If you need that sort of "reality" in your games you need to quit playing them.

The question is posed: "I think I mostly agree with kogikami on this one…. That said, I would still like to understand exactly how does one model "adult" situations into WARGAME RULES?"

The answer is clear, you can't. I've asked it twice in this thread myself. The lack of an answer is telling.

I don't mind it as long as it's appropriate to the theme.

I once modeled a Chaos Marine Rhino with opening doors, inside there was a Slaneshi marine having his way with a female acolyte.

When playing with a younger crowd, the doors stayed closed.

Simple enough.

Quantumcat here:

There are ways of doing these things realistically AND tastefully.

(Most of it offstage or suggested with no graphic content.)

The scenario might include the leader explaining that children and women must be shot due to the enemy's using them as weapons.

They could include them killing babies they find because the
troops have no way to take care of them and don't want to
leave them behind to suffer.

(This would be rather like mercy killing a wounded comrade
or prisoner in the concentration camp you just liberated.)

Think John Ford movie.

Otherwise,the games might be taken over by folks interested
in playing "I Spit on your Grave","Last House on the Left",
"Ilsa of the SS" or the story of Judith and Holoferenes.

A good game doesn't require Bowlderising the truth nor does
it require a Grand Guignol of grindhouse exploitation.

"Mature Audiences",by definition,means people who can handle
sensitive subject matter without cringing or wallowing in it.

If gamers are respected enough to be that mature audience
then the material they are given to game with shall be truly
'adult-oriented' and safe for the workplace without having
to fit a kid's Saturday morning time-slot.

As if this little industry didn't have enough of a problem with its image…

Wow 86 Posts and rising!

A friend of mine's son told me that Wargaming was evil. When i asked him to explain he stated that he had been discussing Warhammer at school and a teacher had overheard. The teacher said " It's evil because it glorifies war!"
According to that particular teacher, we are all evil because we wargame!

It's all down to personal limits on what is appropriate. I love the Horror genre, survival horror stuff with zombies etc. Not everyone's cup of tea, but it's my choice and I game with like minded players. Would I let my 6 year old niece play…….NO!

The game "Zombies!!!!" is very popular and a few people I know play it with their kids. When you look at the concept it's quite frightening. Characters are fighting to stop being eaten alive! Pretty gruesome stuff. The playing pieces are little plastic guys so it doesn't seem to matter.
Now my painted Zombies have upset a few people because they are quite graphic ( in a bloody way not a sexual way!!!). I haven't done this to "shock" as the concept of flesh eating Zombies is pretty shocking anyway. I've done this so I can re-enact scenes from the Dawn of the Dead etc.

I've seen this sort of debate before about "casualty figures" in wargames. Moral "High-Horses" are mounted and battle commences.

I play games to have some fun with some friends and blow-off some real world steam. I love tactics, out thinking my opponent ( or being bamboozled) and the random element the dice rolling brings.

People are capable of truely evil deeds, as history shows.Do I want to game all of those deeds?……….No.
I have my personal limits and I am mature enough to respect those of others.

Any how, according to at least one teacher we are all evil for playing games about war! I always thought I was an ok guy….

Regards
PM

You know, in Monopoly, the object is to drive your opponents into the streets, bankrupt and destitute, and to 'ell with their families!!! And to be a slumlord, develop hotels instead of affordable housing, all the while sipping champagne and living it up in Park Place!

In checkers, jump over and capture different colored pieces, all to become a king so you are above the law (at least the law about moving backwards)!!!!!!!

And in Chess, its to capture/kill the black figures (or vice a versa) I would love for someone to debate the evils of wargaming. Where do you find these guys (NOT the "he's playing with his stupid army men" arguement, though, that ones hard to retort to, especially when its a six foot 2" wife with a Tommy Hearns jab!)

Don't forget bowling, you take a big black ball, roll it down the lane and try to hit a bunch of white pins with rednecks.

LOL, never thought of THAT! Bowling, LOL :) Seriously though, I've been a member of Brians group for a bit, and I don't think he was promoting, condoning "the R word" in gaming, he was seeking opinion (and got it in spades). I've never seen anything the least bit objectionable at his yahoo Group, despite the "adult" warning. I've read their battle reports, and have seen nothing, no nada when it comes to that.

As I said, no nastiness (except for the usual killing) will go on in my games, (although I do, from time to time, have impure thoughts about some of my hasslefree figures, esp. "Suzi" the girl with the little face and Mac10, and Ashlee Campbell, who is ALL girl, despite what some here maintain!).

And his wife seems very nice and I doubt she would put up with any foolishment that was obscene.

From a practical aspect, I don't know why you'd want to cut down your potential audience so sharply. People who play adult-only games are more likely to play all-welcome games than vice-versa.

After more thought, I have come to realize the modeling problems may be a matter of scope of play. Many of the issues presented, have little tactical value, but are tactical level actions. let's take rape, which is the real hot button issue, I think. it happens on a man to man scale, but it has no tactical impact at that level. But institutionalized rape programs have strategic impacts on the opposing armies.

Let's drop rape though, and consider other "adult" themes. Drunkeness, drug abuse, can both be modeled for tactical impact, and rarely offend players. Social taboo is not as strong. What about desecrating corpses. I don't know about other groups, but, I have seen it verbalized in games over the past 30 years of gaming. I could see it modeled into games in terms of morale and personal reputation in tactical level games. Torture certainly is common, but rarely has a place in a tactical level action, or even grand tactical. At a strategic level it simply disappears into the "fog of war' and is generalized into intel rules.

I have found this to be a fascinating discussion, however. I don't know much about Weird War, but I understand it to be WWII? You may not have allowed enough chronology to have passed on your choice of treatment. The world still carries a lot of personal identification with that war. It is seen, by many, as the last war with a clearly defined moral duality. In an above post we saw a reference to an imagine SS officer "assaulting" a woman, which caused little emotional response, because the SS was considered, by the overwhelming majority of people, the bad guy. I wonder how that sub thread would have played out if the "assault" was being committed by a GI or Commando..

curiouser and curiouser.

kokigami – "rape is on a man to man scale"… ho hum.

Let's stop beating about the bush, – anyone who even suggests this kind of thing is a pervert and should be shunned by the 'normal' people who usually take part in the discussion which this website provides for. These freaks should find a 'porn' site which will cater for their weird needs.
Yours feeling sick
Gerry McGinty

Hey Brian,

Ever REALLY wished you hadn't started a thread?!?

For what its worth, I think its abhorrent, and has no place in ANY sort of 'game' you silly, silly man.

John

…."These freaks should find a 'porn' site which will cater for their weird needs….."

Who exactly are the "freaks" you refer to?

Are not all of us "freaks" somehow?.

The thread is degenerating in plain insults and personal attacks, that's not exactly what I'd call a "higher moral stand" and I call it to stop.

IMHO; Was Saving private Ryan a not recommended movie because its close protrayal to real war or was the movie condoning or gloryfing war?, yet it showed gritty, murderous and bloody realism. The movie is well received by many yet is clearly intended for an adult audience, something similar with "Stalingrad" which also showed rape as a very sad fact of war. I understand this is the same situation.

Personally I wouldn't play to such level as I feel it's too much detail and I have enough commanding squadrons ala ASL style with many rules for anything, including that would be too much optional rules but I respect anyone who prefer to include it in their games.

I respect anyone who prefer to include it in their games.

That shocks me. I wouldn't have much respect for anyone who models actual "adult acts" in a game.

That said, I think Brian might be coming at this from an RPG point of view? Some of the examples he gave (SS doing such and such a thing) are examples of what another poster, tnjrp, called "fluff" or background. Sure you might want to have all these things as background to paint an overall picture.

So I'm not sure if Brian is talking about the above or having rules for rolling a dice and determining in what position somehting will happen. If the latter, it's just ing sick. If the former, well, OK, as part of the background, I suppose.

Being in the Horror section as I am, and initially finding TMP due to looking around for places to chat about Spinespur and try to answer anyone's questions…well, heck, I'll toss my two cents in.

Our game is, as some of you know, specifically targeting "adult gamers." It's pretty grim and pretty dark and pretty gross. It's a setting that's filled with humanity's worst, who are all trapped there together for the rest of time (just getting crazier and crazier). We made a point of mentioning that most women don't have an easy life in Spinespur, unless they find some protection -- but that's about as far as it goes. The simple fact is if you fill a place with thousands of serial killers and thugs and murderous scum, your average woman dropped willy-nilly into the middle of it is in for a rough time. We even use the word "rape" a few times, just so we don't pussyfoot around it.

But that doesn't mean even WE want to see it played out on the tabletop, or have artwork of it (as Hell Dorado does) happening right there in the middle of our book (okay, seriously, does a rulebook NEED a picture of a Conquistador raping an angel? Really?). There's a piece of fiction in there -- one of the harder ones for me to write -- that showcases a woman being rescued from some rapists, and those guys get beat down so savagely that hopefully there's no doubt in anyone's mind we, the writers, felt they had it coming.

Half the reason Spinespur got made was Bob wanted to make a game that just shrugged and said "Hell, why not?" and tackled the unsavory bits of the horror genre in particular (and wargaming in general) by having nasty horrible graphic miniatures and artwork, corpse tokens left on the table just waiting to be looted (or animated as zombies), and stuff like that. But rape is just one of those things that…well, it doesn't need to BE in a game, directly.

There's a unit in our first book that's primarily composed of women taken in by the setting's "good guys," and offered security, protection, shelter, food, etc, in exchange for taking up jobs as battlefield medics for them. Most of those gals were rescued by those guys and taken away from abusive pimps or being held by gangs or other horrific stuff -- so it carries over into their rules a little by them (the women) getting nervous when they're too far away from their bodyguards/rescuers. To me, that's a totally reasonable response; they're not combat trained, they're basically women in a shelter who then get hauled onto a battlefield, and told "stick close to me and use that semi-magical doodad to heal me up if I get shot." It's a morale penalty, basically, because they're unarmed non-combatants (and if they're that far from your fighters in the first place, you're doing something wrong). And trust me, there's other units with women in the game that more than make up for that with their aggressiveness. It just fits that model, and encourages people to play them so they'll be usefull and close to the fight.

And that's as far as we wanted to take it, really. There's a difference between mentioning that rape happens (and being quite frank about it), and *making* rape happen right there on the table top. Shying away from something as offensive and disgusting as that isn't dumbing down a game, or being "too PC" or anything like that -- it's just keeping a wargame a GAME, and making sure it's fun for everyone involved.

And, hell. If a game that's OUT to make people shudder and cringe a little by embracing the horror genre doesn't cross that "rape" line, that should tell you something. ;)