"Adult themes in war gaming" Topic

I have read several members make remarks about adult themes within their war games and how it isn't appropriate. Now I do believe that if you are playing with any kind of kid it needs to stay within that mind set but when play with other adults isn't it more realistic to play more realistic?

Take a WWII game in which you have SS Police units hunting down Russian partisans in a Russian village, wouldn't all the hell and horror of the Eastern front be appropriate for that game such as raping, murdering and destroying anything and everything in site. Wouldn't a female spy use her sexuality to seduce or manipulate whomever it took to get what they want? Wouldn't certain fantasy creatures such as a zombie actually rip apart a living person and feast on their flesh? Don't we all kill each other on the gaming table?

I am seriously trying to get a consensus about this because I have been writing my rules in a realistic manner with all aspects of horror, sexuality and vileness a particular character or creatures would have if they were real. I also depict racism, patriotism, love, hate, mercy and all other human emotions that would be depicted on a real battlefield.

Let me know what you think.

Brian

Battleground Weird War II
link

If adults play, and they cannot handle adult themes, maybe they should move over to the kiddie table and let adults move into theirs.

CC
"Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way"

Adult themes for adult games, kiddie themes for kiddie games. And the wisdom to know the difference.

Chris

I pretty much agree with you Brian. I think that killing someone is about as bad a thing to do to someone as it gets. Representing other stuff on the table then is less than that and if it is part of a scenario then by all means.

I agree in principle, but I also think that many of these "Adult Themes" can be abstracted into the game without having to get explicit…

I have two analogies that are somewhat appropriate:

1) EW (Electronic Warfare)… I have been trying to figure out how to incorporate certain types of EW into a Sci-Fi game… Specifically, the ability of an enemy to hack a system and feed false information into it, and the ability of a digital defense against such attacks.

There are so many different manners of attack and defense that it gets just ridiculous to try to model them all… Which means that something needs to be done to simplify the system…

Just like "Adult Themes", there are just too many different things that can model the "horros of war"… You needn't get explicit in order for them to be modelled…

Which brings me to point 2

2) I do a bit of writing… Most of it is somewhat more mature sci-fi that deals with topics that are not exactly for children, but I write them in a manner that is not explicit.. It glosses over the explicit parts, and leaves much of that to the reader…

I also write some pretty hard-core erotica (Porn to be specific).. There, the whole purpose is to be explicit and as detailed as possible… I do not want to abstract and gloss over the details, as they are what the reader is after…

So… I ask this question:

Do you want the games to be just adult themed, and find some way of abstracting the explicit details, so that you are not creating what is essentially pornographic wargaming?

Or, do you just want what is essentially a new form of pornography?

"Don't we all kill each other on the gaming table?"
Well, no.

Regardless of the morality involved, it sounds (your WW@ example) like a thoroughly depressing way to spend your time.
I want vileness, I'll turn on the news or watch reality tv.

Nice board spam, perhaps this could have simply gone in to the "general discussion" category?

As to the topic, I think it is rather sophomoric to want to include that sort of stuff in a war "game".

I agree with you to a certain extent.

But making rape a feature of a game is crass. I don't think it is at all important to a "game" or that it would "add" to it. I know it happened and it is often part and parcel of war, but I think its going to far. It IS just a game after all. Cos where do you stop are you going to chuck pedaphilia into the games as well.. cos a fairly certain invading armies werent to fussed about modern concepts about age limits et al. Just to far for a wargame.

For Roleplay.. again thats a bit different I suppose. But I would be a bit worried about the mental state of one of my friends if I found out he was roleplaying as a rapist.

If we are playing a game in which Vikings are ransacking a village then if one of the players chooses to cut off all the heads of the males and rape or enslave the rest of the females then that is well with the context of the game. The game would not be about raping or cutting off head but it could be a factor within in. The game would be the attack of the village by the Vikings and the defense of the village by the villagers.

Another example is that we played a game of Weird War II in which a horde of zombies were running down about to catch up to my squad of US Airborne. I was low on ammo and had a long way to go so what I decided to do is stab the German grenadier we had as prisoner in the gut and let him be bait as we escaped. Blood thirsty? Yes. Had to do it? No. But it did slow down the horde long enough for us to escape in essence wining them mission. All within context. Now did I purposely design a game to which I got to gut a German prisoner? No.

Now if I made a mission that solely had to do with how many women you can rape or how many students you can kill in a school in 20 turns I think that is way over the top. Would I ever play a game like that? No. Would I ever host a game like that? No. But the possibility of a Japanese officer beheading a wounded Marine on an island on the Pacific for no other reason then to do it, I think that is ok. Yet again in context of the game and ok by me on the game table.

First up congrats for hitting just about every board possible with this post.

So for the record when you say "adult themes" you are talking about Rape, Mass Murder and hell for the rescord lets toss in child molestation/murder.

I am sorry but as an adult I do not understand these themes let alone feel the need to game them. Sure little kids where used to deliver hand grenades and explosives during WWII, Veitnam. Sure there are rape squads sent out to terrorize groups of people and sure large groups where set up and systematicaly slaughtered.

So does playing them make you adult? No they make you sick. Who in thier right mind would have fun using these themes in thier game. The purpose of a game to have fun and try out tactics, what tactics do these represent?

You mention children as hidden combatants, wouldn't that alter your tactics in a game if you knew the enemy were using children to delver grenades? Would it make you kill ever kid encountered? No. Would it make you more vigilant in civilian areas, maybe even make you skip moving through the town and opt for the open filed that might be mined and looks like it could be the perfect position for that ambush? You have to use your said tactics to counter every and any possible situation, right?

I posted to all the different boards because I truly want to know the thoughts of you all and not just a specific category.

Brian

All of the above posts just verify my position about the original poster's intentions:

He wants to know if it is OK to turn gaming into pornography…

Well.. technically I doubt any viking would have raped any woman in the middle of a battle, there would be far too much stuff happening for him to have time. Still, I know that it is likely to happen once the "battle" was over but I still don't want to have to game it. Also, the vikings were only likely to indulge in a spot of rapine if the were raiding a village or town, and they rarely dod this against targets that were defended well. I don't see the game value in putting three longships of armed bandits against a few unarmed peasents and their women. If the Saxons/ Fresians/ Irish actually managed to gather a force to the area the raiders would usually back off in search of easier pickings.

Im not againt civillians in combat as part of a game ( I played a hostage rescue game and a counter insurgancy game in which civillians were an integeral part) Even being possible to shoot at deliberatly or accidently. But the action rape… It maybe history but its far too serious too use in a game. Killing is different.. kids play games involving killing all the time, from playing Army as a child to playing on their computer games. But rape goes too far. Im not arguing that it didnt happen or that I want to colour history, but why do it ? its not fun is it, rape? sure its gritty and horrid, like war is sometimes, but war is also boring and dull, are you going to add the 90% of the time when the soldier is sitting in his trench waiting for orders, or wargaming kit inspections just for the sake of "It would of happened"

Adult wargamers handling adult themes, that is amusing, walk round any games shpw and look at the miniatures that hase females sculpted, then count how many are in partial dress, alluring costumes or nudity…………

I'll stick to "kiddie" games, thank you.

I'm not interested in simulating rape and atrocities as a game.

I would ask what the various 'adult actions' would actually achieve within the game?
Unless they have a specific game-play element to them (e.g. a campaign system where killing an entire village grants the victor some sort of bonus, maybe they cause 'terror' in other games or something), then I would wonder why these actions would occur.

If you are simply incorporating them in the game and going to say that 'character x' will now spend a turn raping, then I think you should seriously rethink what you're trying to achieve.

"And that's when we tickled the Germans out of the bunker with hug grenades and fun throwers…"

I share the concerns that others have expressed about your motives here, Brian, and I also had a similar reaction to Iain's in wondering what such things would actually achieve within a game.

On the other hand, I can see scope for some of what you're suggesting having a place in some gaming situations. For example, you ask the question:

Wouldn't a female spy use her sexuality to seduce or manipulate whomever it took to get what they want?

I can certainly see how in some types of game (for example, pulp gaming or RPG-hybrids) it may be sensible to allow a female character to seduce or beguile male characters for the purpose of achieving her own aims. In fact, I've recently been looking at the Occult Wars game book which accommodates just such a skill (for both male and female characters). However, this is expressed as an abstract concept which affects the command/control of characters, and not a detailed simulation of seduction.

I'm perfectly happy with an in-game device such as this, particularly given the subject matter of Occult Wars and the gothic-romantic nature of the vampires who can make use of such an ability. Similarly that game also includes rules for undead creatures devouring their fallen victims (which relates to another of your examples) but again this is handled in an abstract manner in the form of stat modifiers gained through those creatures feeding and regaining strength. I think it's quite correct that the game doesn't go into explicit details about these things even though they are a valid aspect of the genre – just as in a traditional wargame, when one of my troops shoots an enemy soldier, I don't need to know how much it hurt or what the wound looks like.

Finally, I still don't understand what worthwhile purpose there is in including rules for rape within any gaming scenario, even when it may have been a historically realistic outcome. Leaving aside the moral question, what would be the actual point in gaming terms, aside from tasteless titillation?

Thanks.. but no thanks.

I guess everyone just glossed over my points about this whole issue, or just repeated them nearly verbatim…

Parmenion came closet to my actual wording…

It is far easier to just abstract this sort of thing into the game, as the effect that you are trying to achieve is a representation within the game of a minor role and its ability to affect the larger action of said game. Such as, intelligence gained by a spy could be used to counter the future moves of an oponent.

Unless that is… Your goal is to wallow in the explicit actions of those characters, and how said spy obtained that information… which doesn't sound to me like something that would be the goal of a miniature wargame, but rather something that a bunch of teen-aged Role Players (Or Role Players of an older age and more desparate and lonely nature) would imagine…

Like I said… A form of Pornography (which is defined as any material that is designed solely to titilate or arouse – sort of what this whole thing sounds like)

I'm sorry Judas, I didn't know you had copyright on that opinion.

I did note at the outset of my post that I shared the concerns that others had already expressed, and I intentionally used one of the same terms you did ("explicit details") as a reflection of that fact. But I thought this was an open discussion and a sharing of ideas, I didn't realise we were in competition here.

Easy, Parmenion, this a medium akin to e-mail lacking voice inflection and body language. Don't over-react to what you perceive, please.

I was not going to answer kampfgruppecottrell but since I wrote the above…

kampfgruppecottrell, I personally have zero…nada…zilch interest in such a 'game' (I don't consider it's intent as either a game or simulation about war but the evil detritus that war ALSO collects would seem it's theme.) I would not buy such a set of rules.

If I knew what your game was about at a con I wouldn't play – I work for the Intelligence community and I know more then I ever wanted about the horrors of human nature.

If it was at one of the Big Muddy Historical Game Alliance cons I (as a member) would express my opinion to the leadership that, since we don't have an "Adults only" area for our public cons, that you game be removed from the con

My ancestors were not Politically Correct (Spanish Conquistadores on my mother's side) then or by today's lights so it's not a case of 'better then thou.' And my Father's Cherokee ancestors probably muiltialted some of their victims. But I don't want to model that on the war game table. YMMV.

And I spent 15 years in nursing prior to my current job so the actual physical horror of what someone can inflict on others is not second hand knowledge to me – ever seen someone killed by having a tire iron jammed into their abdomen and splitting their aorta? Messy doesn't cover it. Now THAT is definitely an 'adult' activity – another one I don't want graphically portrayed in my war games.

I also don't want it messing up my pornography either…<grin>

Gracias,

Glenn

Easy, Parmenion, this a medium akin to e-mail lacking voice inflection and body language. Don't over-react to what you perceive, please.

Point taken, Glenn, though I struggle to see what other meaning Judas' comments could have had. Still, I accept that I may have misinterpreted the intention behind his words.

Judas,
If someone quotes or repeats what you said, just take it that they agree with you.
In this case I certainly do, as I'm sure Parmenion does.

Going back to the point of the discussion, the discussion does make me think that the actions described may be used by some as a way to live out some sort of strange/perverse/depraved fantasy, and that I find somewhat disturbing. I think it's ok if it's a group of gamers who are 'ok' with that idea and are happy to just keep it to themselves, but at a convention I think it would be highly inappropriate.
As a community we get enough bad press as it is, without actively going out and painting targets on ourselves, which this could well do.

Brian, I'll make you an offer at this point, if you want to pick up the discussion on this 'offline' then email me at the Hobbybox and send me a set of the rules if you want. I'm happy to read through them and give you an honest opinion of what I think would work at a convention.

Thanks,
Iain.

My biggest question is, would this be a convention game?
If so, I think ot would be in extreme distaste, due to the walkby traffic.
In the answer to my biggest question is no, whereas this might be a valid discussion elsewhere, it isn't on the conventions discussion board. The politics that go on here are bad enmough.
Now we are discussing pornography and pedophilia?
chuck

It seems this topic confuses games with simulation.

Simulations are designed to be realistic and detailed, to mimic reality. Thatīs why simulations are often used in education and training. When training to be a soldier or a policeman, you need to prepare yourself for the horrible things you will one day encounter in your work. You will have to step outside your comfort zone to achieve this.

Games are designed to be fun. Thatīs why people play them. I myself, for example, rationally know that war knows endless horrors, but thatīs not why I play wargames and I wouldnīt like to see them in a game. Simulating rape, pain, trauma and destruction is not my thing. Pitting myself against an opponent in a tactical problem is. I expect the game to feature those aspects of war that I need to do that. The rest would take it "over the edge" and I can do without.

There are games that move near the edge due to their topic. RPGīs touch this more often than wargames actually. Anyone who ever played Call of Cthulhu or Vampire will know what I mean. But even then, the edge should not be crossed. The few times I have seen this, the game ceased to be fun and ended. Games should be played well within the playerīs comfort zone.

I can imagine why one would want to try it. It would be innovative, challenging, shocking and would attract attention. But it would no longer be a game.

"Hey man, how was the game last night?"

"It was so cool. I wuz a SS trooper and we wuz invading this town ya know. And there was this hot chick I got to rape. And this old guy tried to save her so I cut his guts out and wrapped them around his neck and hung him from a tree with them. Then I got to do the hot chicks little sister to make her mom tell us where the partisans were. It was way cool man!"

Sorry, not my cuppa tea. And certainly isn't what war gaming is about. Takes a sick puppy to even consider it. You need professional help my friend. Scratch the friend part. I don't even want to know you.

I don't know, Violence is just fine, but the raping and the (whatever)? Just doesn't feel right to me. Not on any moral scale, just something I don't want to game. I don't like gaming with phasers set on "stun", and I don't want my figures running around raping others (especially since my games have few females! Except my zombie games, and nobodies touching my Hasslefree Ashlee and Suzi figs!!!)

Hobbybox, Parmenion, et al…

My issue was that people call this for what it is:

Pronography, or the express intent to arouse or titilate (I think that the Gov't takes an even narrower view of such

Back in the 1980s, there was a game made by a company that was not in existenc for too long…

The game was about role playing high school…

Only the authors, some guys who were pretty ahead of their time in many ways (They were punks, in the musical genre, and people who I knew from a few bands), but they took the experiences from one area of their life, and tried to move them to another, where this sort of thing wasn't exactly percieved in the same light…

The game they created had experience points for doing things like selling drugs, having sex with as many girls as possible, the more explicit description of which got you more points, and so forth… To them. it was pretty mild stuff… But to someone who was not looking for that sort of thing… It was nothing short of pornographic (They were banned from all convetions… So, they had a VERY hard time promoting their products in a time prior to the net). The game also had less graphic aspects for players who chose a less interesting High School career (Preppy, nerd, etc…)

I guess that some people are just looking for something that is more than most would consider appropriate for the gaming hobby…

I guess i just don't understand.

I can see that after the Vikings capture the village, they might spend time pillaging to acquire the maximum number of gold points (or whatever). I realize this would include ripping open mattresses, digging up the garden, torturing people to get them to tell where they'd hidden their silver, rape, enslaving the locals, etc. To me, this could be all be covered under the heading of "1st turn of pillage yields 50% of the gold points the village is worth, 2nd turn 30%, 3rd turn 20%." It becomes a generic points thing for pillage.

The other point I see is that spending three turns pillaging may allow the Northumbrian army to get between the Vikings and their ships, and that's likely to be just too bad for the Vikings.

I don't think I want to know that that Pillage Turn one involves Bjorn beating and punching Mathilde, ripping off her clothes, and raping her in the NW corner of Building A on a pile of leather goods. Turn 2 he goes out, finds his buddy, Thorstein and sends him in to do the same, and Turn 3 Thorstein sends in his cousin Snorri. Nor do I wish for the details of bondage you'd find in a John Norman novel. Too down in the weeds for me. Some things I know happen, but I am happy to have them handled with a high level of abstraction.

Grelber

Judas,
I agree with you, porn is the exact issue here.
The original post was about conventions, so the question is essentially…
Would people be happy to have a game at a convention, where under 18's are likely to be present, which uses pornographic themes as a central facet to it's rules sytem?

I would hope that the answer is a resounding 'No'.

I also understand Brian's desire to get his game in the public domain, hence my offer to have a look and say whether I think the game crosses too many lines to be acceptable at a convention.

I agree with beowulfdahunter. 100%
I have always been annoyed when trash and garbage in a movie is described as "adult themes". sure. That's what all grownups do.

As I see it, you have every right to include in your rules what you describe as "adult". Please have the courtesy to advertise it as such. No one wants to open up the box and have a game with his 9 year old kids who think zombies are neat, and then turn to page 37 to roll on the Rape Table.
Just as you have the right to publish what you wish, I have every right to refuse to buy it for that very reason.

One final question. Why would you WANT to "game" rape?

I think Grelber gave a very good example of how to deal with something like pillage in a wargame. I would consider anything more than this abstract level as inappropiate and very disturbing. I don't think wargamers should think about strategic choices like 'if I order my troops to mass rape' this will give my enemy -1 to general moral, but will also make it 50% less likely that enemy troops will surrender in the future and also adds +1 to his foreign military support throw. Just the thought of this is offensive.

On the other hand I have no problem if characters in a roleplaying game (or a pulp mini game) would bed the princess they just rescued or a James Bond character type used his charme to get information from a "bad girl'. But even here I think this could done with a dice rolling (after all what are the stats for charisma and or personal appearance for?) and doesn't have to be roleplayed in all details. (Do a dungeonmaster playing the NPC and the player really want to play this out in detail? Most don't I think. Even though there used to be a free RPG supplement online which was several hundred pages long (!) with rules how to handle adult situations like this in games.))

Ever hear of the Khaotic role-playing game? I picked up a copy because I heard that it had an interesting premise: the PCs are all individual intelligences sharing the same body. An good SF premise, and one I thought might be fun to play around with.

The book itself, however… Well, I kept expecting Dr. Freud to show up, look over my shoulder and start saying "Yes, yes, yes, I see, yes." This sounds like it's flirting with the same territory, and no, I wouldn't consider playing Khaotic at a con. Or at all, really; I've kept the book to mine for tech and rules system ideas.

The original poster wrote: "Take a WWII game in which you have SS Police units hunting down Russian partisans in a Russian village, wouldn't all the hell and horror of the Eastern front be appropriate for that game such as raping, murdering and destroying anything and everything in site. Wouldn't a female spy use her sexuality to seduce or manipulate whomever it took to get what they want? Wouldn't certain fantasy creatures such as a zombie actually rip apart a living person and feast on their flesh? Don't we all kill each other on the gaming table?

"I am seriously trying to get a consensus about this because I have been writing my rules in a realistic manner with all aspects of horror, sexuality and vileness a particular character or creatures would have if they were real. I also depict racism, patriotism, love, hate, mercy and all other human emotions that would be depicted on a real battlefield."

At the risk of taking his questions more seriously than they deserve, I'd like an example of how he plans to incorporate "rules" for rape into a tactical miniatures game, and what the point would be?

Firstly, even the Red Army and the German military and stiff penalties for rape (even in 1945, these were meted out in some Red Army units despite the literally thousands of offences to which a blind eye was unofficially or officially cast).

Secondly, rapes don't occur in a front line situation when combatants are within shooting distance of each other – the situation one generally finds one's self in when at the gaming table.

I could go on, but I'm really not seeing the relevance this has to a tactical recreation of a battle in the least. Rape was a crime, and an individual one, committed away from the battlefield. If the original poster could provide some evidence that that activity would ever have an effect on the tactical arena, and then provide a clear example of how he would incorporate into his "rules", I would love to see it. It sounds like some sort of elaborate April Fool's gag or some variation thereon, actually, given how non-sensical the suggestion is. I'd suggest we've been had.

Short answer- It's CREEPY.

Long answer- There really shouldn't need to be a long answer explaining what's wrong with gaming rape, graphic sex, or detailed violence. See short answer.

I was low on ammo and had a long way to go so what I decided to do is stab the German grenadier we had as prisoner in the gut and let him be bait as we escaped. Blood thirsty? Yes. Had to do it? No. But it did slow down the horde long enough for us to escape in essence wining them mission.

Curiously everybody have notice the Rape issue, but none has paid any attention to the Cold Blood Killer issue…

I know that kind of things happen in the actual world. We have them in the news all day. People being maimed, abused, shot in cold blood… Human beings know how to inflict pain and humiliation for sure.

What benefit would have for modelling those events in the table top?

To me Wargaming is a way to collect, paint and have a nice game in a nice table with nice toys with my buddies. To have fun, try our brains and boast afterwards. Life has more than its part of nasty things… when I game I want to forget that people becomes old, sick and die. When I game I want to forget all those ugly and terrible things that happen all days. When I game I just want to have a good time with my friends.

So no. I want not to gut any German Grenadier to avoid the zombies catching us. I prefer to depict the US Paras accomplishing their mission by being well trained soldiers, not for being a bunch of cold blooded assassins.

I play warGAMES, not RAPE, RACIST, and MURDER simulations.

Add this to the consensus.

………………Doug

Brian, I notice your concern that local conventions have refused your offers to host Weird war II games –

TMP link

I wonder if it's not the subject as such, but the organizers fear that you will introduce aspects to the game that they really don't want to see at their convention?

See Margetes7 answer.

basileus asks:

"Curiously everybody have notice the Rape issue, but none has paid any attention to the Cold Blood Killer issue…

I know that kind of things happen in the actual world. We have them in the news all day. People being maimed, abused, shot in cold blood… Human beings know how to inflict pain and humiliation for sure.

What benefit would have for modelling those events in the table top?"

This is applicable to tactical situations – see the rules in Advanced Squad Leader, for example, for No Quarter and Massacre. These can be applied in general to alter the behaviour of entire groups of men, as historically it can be seen that such behaviour existed. For example, witness US attitudes towards Waffen SS units after the Malmedy Massacre (sic), of Canadian units towards the SS after news of the Normandy POW murders. In gaming terms, an increase in morale and a decreased willingness to take live prisoners can be translated to the gaming table.

I still don't see what individual sex crimes away from the battlefield have to do with that equation.

I'd rather have my buddy pretending to stick a shiv up my backside rather than other things…

As far as "it actually happened"… defecation happened on the battlefield too. And it was, it is, and it will be an important factor in military operations. But I am not going to try to game models ting themselves to death with dysentery during a game.

Actual rape and torture is a terrible feature of human nature, and it is important to NOT forget … so put it in books, put it in documentaries, and punish the offenders.

But as far as gaming rape, it has nothing to do with tactical victory, adds nothing to anyone's understanding of the act itself (take psych classes, work with victims… learn from the victim's viewpoint if want to understand rape), so on the table top… it belongs with, and has as much merit, as gaming defecation, urination, …

Exactly. Or put less dramatically, about as necessary as including rules for dehydration (with detailed rules for water bottles, water resupply, etc.), footgear (shoelace breakage, foot disorders) or other ephemera not directly related to the tactical situation.

I'm with the majority. While war is hell and those things happened, I don't care to game at that level of detail. I don't ignore those things or pretend they didn't happen; like most other posters, I'm a huge history buff, and I've read many accounts of human attrocity, past and present. But I read to learn; I game to relax.

I play wargames because they are a recreational activity and they make my brain hurt in a nice way. I even stick to pre-gunpowder eras because firearms look too "real" and dangerous. All the themes you mention could be included in a campaign as abstract morale factors -- you would have the effects without the aftertaste.

Right…

"the Crusaders lose the Battle of Hattin if they haven't reached water by turn twelve"….

or

"exhaustion and lack of water means a loss of morale for this scenario"

not detailed descriptions, acted out by players, as the troops pass through heat exhaustion, heat prostration, into heat stroke and inevitably death.

As suggested above, the Vikings loot the village, can choose to spend more turns looting/capturing women and acquiring more victory points, but increasing risk of being caught before escaping… the tactical relevance. Not the minutiae of violent acts carried out.

I find it particularly disturbing that you seem to want to mix in these themes with comic book characters such as Captain America & the Invaders. Weird War (zombies, advanced tech) I get. Comic book/pulp heroes (Cap, Indy, et al) I get. I even get the two together. Why you feel the need to add rape & explicit gore is beyond me.

I don't role play and I don't want my toy soldiers to fornicate or torture each other!

If you decide to run this type of game it should be adult only.

See, I read it as a wargame. I take this to include such atrocities would need to be playing at a skirmish level. It would be impossible to add at a higher level.. and I fail to see the game in it, I want to kick back with some other history buffs and play with toy soldiers. Its meant to be fun and light hearted. Rape/ sexual abuse should never be reduced to entertainment.
Its hard to articulate.. I never thought Id meet anyone whod need it articulating.. I have a wife, two younger sisters, and someday i hope to have children, maybe daughters.

Wife: Good game today?
Edwulf: Yep, took a Russian battalion HQ. Lost three men.
But my Sarge found three russian girl soldiers, so
we passed them around the platoon. Killed them after too.
Wife:………….!!!!!!1

I don't need to mention what the non gaming public re action would be, if they found that the hobby was also allowing men to simulate rape and torture.