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"The Color of French SYW Outer Coats - Justaucorps" Topic


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ge2002bill Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2007 8:32 a.m. PST

If the search engine works here at TMP for the 18th C. Discussion board, the topic of gris-blanc, grey white. gray-white French coats has come up about 3-4 times in the past twelve months. I put information in each time about it. I am hopeful interested parties can find the threads. Some of my comments were lengthy.

In 1987 I saw the Louisbourg marine grey uniforms in person up close speaking with the folks wearing them and seeing them hanging in barracks displays. Please refer to my comments in the thread here about the Ticonderoga log wall being built by a contributor here though. In my comments you will see the importance of the year 1744 and before. The SYW was 1756-1763.

My uniform plate collections from the 1970s and 1980s whether Knötel, Le Plumet, The Company of Military Historians, Parks Canada and/or Leliepvre show either white or gray outer coats, justaucorps in French.

Naturaly we want to trust what these researchers and artists did so long ago. The thing is, in recent years, thinking is moving away from gray to an off-white color. If we look at the 18th C. paintings of The Port of Antibes, the battalion marching along in route of march step clearly has off white coats. Paintings at Versailles gallery show off-white coats. The coat in the 18th C. display in the Army Museum in Paris is off-white. René Chartrand's latest book on Ticonderoga shows off white coats. No grey anyplace. And to be a little funny, I have never heard of a gray sheep. Plus I made an effort some years ago to see sheep shearing at a fair. Their wool was not white like a piece of paper, but at a distance it's kinda white or off-white.

I regret to say I planned to mention a bottle of paint that comes very close to the off-white I am talking about. Unfortunately this will have to wait till Monday. Prior to this recent find I was mixing ivory white with a little mdeium leather brown – very little to get the color I think is on target. It matches reenactor coats of the F&I almost 100%.

F&I renactors BTW started making light gray coats in the early 1980s. They gradually shifted to off-white in the 1990s. Their creative thinking was that the gray coats were hold overs from earlier supplies sitting in colonial depots for decades. But it was creative thinking – not factual. Funcken's The Lace Wars shows gray coats in the 1720s and 1730s approx. However, by the time of the SYW, they are white.

Back on track now. I thought it odd that 1960-1970s uniform plates showed sometimes both off-white and gray coats for the French. This raised a red flag.

It is very natural for English-speaking people including myself to interpret the words gris-blanc as grey white and ultimately as some form of grey. But the word grey modifies the primary word white, not the other way around. Thus we have some sort of white – not a gray.

The casual painter reading the words gray-white, gris-blanc will naturally paint some kind of gray coat. Almost automatic. Look at the Front Rank website for example. Frankly we have all been understandibly tricked by language interpretation rather than facts. Me too BTW.

Bon Chance,
Bill

ge2002bill Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2007 8:43 a.m. PST

SUMMARY OF SOME POINTS OF INTEREST FROM THE RENE' CHARTRAND SEMINAR
JULY 1, 1989
By Bill Protz and Jim Marsala
Edited by René Chartrand


René Chartrand is the world premier authority concerning clothing and equipment worn by the French and Canadians whether military, civilian or fur trader of 18th century North America. He is author of The French Soldier In Colonial America (1), co-author of Military Uniforms In Canada 1665-1970 and a contributing writer to Military Uniforms In America The Era of The American Revolution 1755-1795. He is also a member of the prestigious Company of Military Historians. It was therefore a great pleasure to learn he was a guest speaker at the 10th Annual French and Indian War Encampment at Old Fort Niagara on July 1, 1989 through the efforts of Executive Director Brian Leigh Dunnigan and George A. Bray III.

Mr. Chartrand showed slides and spoke to an assemblage of about fifty attendees on the gundeck of the French Castle for a little over an hour, and afterwards to a much. smaller group in a less structured environment for another three hours. The following text paraphrases some of the many interesting points Mr. Chartrand mentioned.

Additionally, he has seen this article prior to its printing in The Journal of the.-Forces-of Montcalm & Wolfe to correct errors of memory and to receive his approbation. Therefore, this piece was prepared with checks and balances for which we wish to express our sincere appreciation. We also thank Brian Leigh Dunnigan for reviewing and adding further information to this article as well.
The following pertains mostly to the era of the French and Indian War 1755-1763, the time frame of our "Forces of Montcalm & Wolfe", and principally to the Compagnies Franches de la Marine. However, there are some comments about Troupes de Terre, the militia and fur trader/voyageurs.

THE COMPAGNIES FRANCHES DE LA MARINE IN NORTH AMERICA IN THE MID 1750'S
Headgear:
Tricorns (soldiers and officers) should not have plumes, feathers and jewelry decorations. A slide of an actual tricorn displayed in the Musee de l'Armee in Paris for our period indicates the shape is not bicornish. There are no sharp angles and it appears very similar to the French and Indian War replica models sold by Godwin of Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. 1757-1760 manuscript illustrations done in Europe show the front "corn" higher. See artwork of the American Revolution for the bicorns and the cover of René Chartrand's The French Soldier In Colonial America for the 1750's tricorn.

There is evidence to suggest several models of bonnets. No "pirate" bandanas covering hair.

Facial Hair:
Grenadiers, sergeants and artillerymen of the Canonniers-Bombardiers were permitted to wear mustaches as a distinguishing mark of their elite status.

Neckstocks:
White only for Marines. Black was worn by shipboard Cfdl Marines and the Troupes de Terre (Montclam's French Army regular battalions).

Justaucorps:
Cream-white or grey-white. A colored slide was shown of several 18th century wool swatches from the Bibliotheque National (BN) in Paris. There was a whitish swatch on the slide. (2) Lighting in the BN was poor.
Buttons do not go all the way to the hem. They stop at the waist commencing at about 1750 for Cfdl Marines; about 1736 for Troupes de Terre.
The wool serge inside lining was full top to bottom. Capots were worn in winter, (3)

Capot:
The thigh length capot (always with a hood), shown on page 13 in The French Soldier In Colonial America, was worn in the spring and autumn. A longer version could he worn in winter. The back does not have an overlapping sheet of cloth below the shoulder. The capot should not have fringe.

Ammunition Box:
From about 1757 a larger capacity giberne worn over the right hip replaced the belly box. A strap atop the shoulder of the justaucorps keeps the leather belt, to which the giberne was attached, in place. The giberne has the King's coat of arms. The anchor etc. is gone on the belly box by the late 1740's, replaced by the King's arms.

Lace:
From 1750: one inch wide for sergeants edging on justaucorps cuffs and pockets. For officers the lace was also one inch wide on waistcoats. However, the French inch is larger than our inch by almost 1/12th. (4) Sergeant Majors would wear two strips of lace, one above and one below justaucorps cuff buttons. Sergeant Majors were only in major towns such as Louisbourg, Quebec, Montreal, Detroit and New Orleans. (5)

Sashes:
"Not worn since the reign of Louis XIV (died in 1715) by officers in Bourbon armies. If you must have one make it white, but it is hard to see why one should wear this representing 1750's French forces."

Breeches:
The usual blue. Officers could wear other colors off duty but were expected to wear regulation dress and weapons on duty.

Gaiters:
Ample evidence for military gaiters being worn from the late 1740'.s

"Going Indian":
It was a French principle of colonization and trade to wear European clothing in towns and in the wilderness. They were bringing "civilization" to the wilderness and the Indians. In the latter the purpose was to impress the Indians with resplendent clothing. The wearing of Indian and civilian attire was not useful in this regard. Foppish attire of the late 18th century was not evident.

Marine soldiers were from France and shipped to Canada annually. Only marine officers were Canadian born. It is hard to imagine a native born Frenchman, no
matter his frontier post, casting aside European born customs, mode of dress and behavior. Fur traders could go Indian in terms of dress but not marines.

For fur trader reenactors it is recommended that one dresses as a European above the waist and that below the waist some Indian attire can be worn. The emphasis is on the word some. There is a tendency to overdo the wearing of "romanticized" fur trader garb of the next century.
"Travelers to mid-18th century Canada usually noted in their journals the attention given to the latest available fashions in France not only in dress, but also in food, etc."

Supply of Military Clothing/Equipment In Western Posts:
Evidence suggests that even in western outposts such as those-in Michigan, Illinois and Wisconsin that marines there were amply supplied with marine military clothing. The idea that supplies of such items were low or non-existant is false. There is even evidence suggesting that marines sent to fur trading posts north of present day Minnesota and North Dakota dressed well. There is sufficient evidence (from Mackinac and Montreal) supporting the idea that there were enormous quantities of European cloth on hand. There was not a shortage of cloth especially when its importance in trading is considered. (6)

Rank:
The highest rank was captain. There were no colonels or majors.

Flag:
Cfdl Marines in Canada and Louisiana had no unit colours (flags). White flags (the colour of France) were sometimes taken on campaign. The best guess at present is a flag of four white cantons sewn with white thread on the outside of a white cross. No other colors or devices. (7)


MILITIA UNIFORMS:
Outside of Montreal and Quebec, no uniforms.

Drill:
New manuals and ordonnances were received in North America on a timely basis. The marines were well-drilled regulars and were not "Daniel Boones." (8) This is not to say that the Frenchmen who became marine privates did not learn some woods-wise tactics. Militia was well-drilled too. (9)

Footnotes:

(1) Write to the Old Fort Niagara Trading Post to obtain a copy of this inexpensive and handy reference booklet at P.O. BOX 169, Youngstown, New York 14174. Every marine and Troupes de Terre reenactor should have this booklet. Cost is $4.95 USD plus $1.00 USD per order for postage and handling.

(2) The Doerr Mills light grey wool is darker than the whitish swatch on the slide.

(3) It is interesting to note that there were 200 new marine recruits of German extraction at the 1759 siege of Fort Niagara per Brian Leigh Dunnigan, Executive Director of Fort Niagara and author of SIEGE – 1759 THE. CAMPAIGN AGAINST NIAGARA, in spite of the British blockade. Perhaps they wore the new 1757 justaucorps.
Marines did not always remain at the same post. Rotation occurred.

(4) Twelve french inches equals 12.789 English measure. The same ratio should be used when considering the average height of an 18th Century Frenchman. Often they are depicted as short in stature. However, the difference between the English. and French inch changes this impression.

(5) These are Cfdl Marine rank badges. The Cannonniers-Bombardiers and the Troupes de Terre had somewhat different rank badges.

(6) Consider two examples of French deserters from Fort Sandosket (Sandusky) at their trial in January 1752:

'Interrogation of Henri Davout…deserter…asked if he had brought his regulation uniform with him … replied no, that he left his coat, a pair of breeches and a few shirts at a soldier-tailor named Lacouture at-Detroit and his hat with the Sieur Chapoton, surgeon, and that he had on him only a capot made with an old uniform coat…'
'Interrogation of Francois Boisson (?)…asked if he had his regulation uniform… replied that he wore it under his capot to protect him from the cold having neither a waistcoat or a jacket.'
Rene Chartrand comments, "From this we learn that there was a military tailor at Detroit and that the men in question seemed to have had regulation uniforms in addition to other clothing. It would make sense to wear capots for woods running and other informal duties, and keep the uniforms for parades, guard duty, processions and other ceremonies. I cannot say if uniforms were 'issued' in Detroit but that they were worn, there can be little doubt."

(7) Cfdl Marines at Louisbourg had a stand of colours, design unknown, and this resulted in conflicts between Canadian and Louisbourg officers in the late 1740's. The only documented Canadian unit Cfdl Marine colour is in 1757 when a Cfdl Marine battalion was formed to serve with the Troupes de Terre; no information on its design.
The flags the English captured at Louisbourg in 1758 were taken to St. Paul's Cathedral in London that year per Guy Fregault's Canada: The War of the Conquest (p.255). Rene Chartrand kindly advised of a letter he received about these flags in 1978. The writer., W. Y. Carman, stated, "As to the eleven French colours of 1758, I fear that all evidence is lost. In 1835 the Canon of St. Paul's wrote, 'As damp destroys cloth and religion has little to do with war, the worst depository for flags of triumph is a church---in 1820--- the trophies were found to have utterly perished – not a rag remained.'"

(8) Brian Leigh Dunnigan expressed a similar point that British units such as Rogers' Rangers were regular units and the concept of them being woodswise in the sense of "Davey Crockett" as legend and myth tell us is unsubstantiated.

(9) For an outstanding analysis of the Canadian militia see "A Different Kind of Courage. The French Military and the Canadian Irregular Soldier During the Seven Years' War" by Martin L. Nicolai in The Canadian Historical Review; Volume LXX #1, 1989.

artslave06 Jul 2007 10:21 a.m. PST

I'm afraid that a complete understanding of this issue is yet to emerge. I have great respect for M.Chartrand, and his contribution to our knowledge has been huge, but he is only one man. The weavers I met in England and Wales are getting a different look at this problem. They are researching how the fabric was made and what it was made from.

First of all, they have found that many fabric color were achieved by mixing thread colors in the warp and weft, then fulling them together to get a desired result. I was shown samples of "azure celeste" that was made with a mix of thread colors, not by dieing the finished fabric. I own several jumpers (sweaters) of various tones of charcoal gray made from mixes of Highland sheep and lowland breeds. If you look very closely at the weave, you can make out individual hairs of black, gray-brown and off-white. Further back, and these colors merge into a single color, like a pixels in a photograph.

Next is research needed in understanding where the wool came from. As the example above, a mixture of unbleached wool produces a "graying" effect. I grew up on a sheep farm surrounded by several breeds of sheep. They are not the same color. Add to this a dramatic shift in farm breeds since the 1700s and the need to know what sheep were contributing the raw material becomes paramount to knowing what the finished fabric looked like. Nice white fluffy wool comes from very specific breeds that are not suited for all conditions. When breeds are raised in tougher environments, the hearty old breeds do better than the fluffy guys. Research into heritage breeds might contribute to a better understanding of what was meant by "gris-blanc".

ge2002bill Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2007 10:39 a.m. PST

I can only offer that more research should be made and that the wool of my own French justaucorps does indeed have black fibres in it. But it is still not grey.
Bon chance to all,
Bill

InFocus06 Jul 2007 5:20 p.m. PST

I got 'flamed' on this very topic a few years ago. Someone in Australia stated that some sheep in France had a blue-gray color to them and this is where the French gris-blanc comes from. This gentleman was VERY certain that this was the case as he worked with sheep and had studied them for some time. He stated, as ArtSlave does, that all the wool was blended together and this is where the blue-grey color came from. His suggestion was that all French should be painted in a light blue-grey color. What I've been reading more and more is that the color could even have a bit of brown in it – not much but some – instead of grey. I'd bet that there is a university study out there somewhere either in Europe or the Americas that has already investigated this. Now it is just a matter of finding it.

Personal logo Der Alte Fritz Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2007 9:40 p.m. PST

The example in the military museum in Paris and the contemporary paintings of soldiers would seem to indicate that the color was indeed white.

artslave06 Jul 2007 11:20 p.m. PST

I'll have to check my old photos from Les Invalides to see if I have one of this. This was from a time that you could get photos if you were discrete and didn't use a flash. Was it an officer's coat or other ranks? I don't recall. I think it makes a difference. Again, my communications with the spinners and weavers raise doubts about any bleached fabric for the ranks, as it weakens the fabric as well as adds to the cost. This means shirts would be of un-bleached fabric as well. This is not documented by me, but I raise this as it has perked my interest.

As for artist's rendition, I can say that we all received a license upon graduation from art school. Much can be learned from original period pictorial sources, but we should be cautious in taking things like depictions of colors and tones as too literal and subject to other concerns that a simple rendering of a manual photograph. Besides, what is white? Our eye can "read" a color one way, and a completely different way in another setting. Is it white, or just very light in contrast to surroundings?

I don't mean to beat the horse about it. I think for painting up our miniature soldiers, an approximation can suffice. For years I slaved to get what I thought was that perfect "brick-red" for my AWI Brits. I have seen many other interpretations since, and when well presented look very nice on the table. I suspect that more could come of this, as history buffs, re-enactors and painters keep digging. Meanwhile, I continue painting my F&IW French with an off-white for other ranks and brighter white for officers. I like how it looks, and await further developments.

JeanLuc07 Jul 2007 1:01 p.m. PST

picture

this is the right color

JeanLuc07 Jul 2007 1:05 p.m. PST

Hello as per :
Mémoire sur l'état de Infanterie
par Mylord Clare (1756)

Les draps fournis le printemps dernier, pour les réparations ordinaires et pour les compagnies nouvelles, sont plus mauvais et plus chers que jamais. Les chapeaux, qui depuis plusieurs années, sont de mauvaises étoffes, m'ont parus cet été plus méchants que les précédentes, tous les corps s'en plaignent.

Ces deux inconvénients viennent de la hausse sur la valeur des laines, et de la fixation des prix, le fabriquant assujetti à ne recevoir qu'une certaine somme pour son salaire, y proportionne son étoffe et retranche de la bonté et de la solidité qu'elle devrait avoir, pour pouvoir retrouver le profit qui lui est légitimement dû.

Il serait nécessaire de prendre des mesures sur cet important objet qui intéresse non seulement les troupes du Roy, qui se trouveront bientôt sans être vêtues, mais aussi les manufactures, où l'abus et l'habitude des mauvaises fabrications s'introduira.


If it can be of any help this account states that the wool was of bad quality.

As per Nec pluribus impar some regiments were plain WHITE:

Uniformes et distinctives
Picard
E.M. 1757-1758-1760, La Chesnaye 1759: habit, parements, collet et culotte blancs, veste rouge, doubles poches garnies de neuf boutons jaunes rangés en patte d'oie et quatre sur la manche, chapeau bordé d'or.

Others Gris Blanc :
Navarre
État miltaires 1757-1758-1760, La Chesnaye 1759: habit, veste et collet gris blancs, boutons jaunes, pattes quarrées garnies de neuf boutons dont quatre de chaque coté et un en bas, cinq sur la manche, et un en dedans. Chapeau bordé d'or.


Now Gris Blanc is NOT Gray white !

It is more i think a white that is brownish
Best described i would say is a white cloth white some undied filaments in it.
Basicaly The cloth being badly died it would at close inspection have a light grey/brownish look.


JL

artslave07 Jul 2007 2:28 p.m. PST

A very nice photo, and very appropriate to my point. Look at the coat color by moving the curser so only the middle shows. It looks white compared to the buff leather straps. Then look at the photo where the coat is next to the pure bleached white of the cravat. Here it does not look so white. The buff leather is much lighter than many of us tend to portray it. As I've cut several miles of genuine buff, this would be very new leather not yet exposed to the sun. It tends to "yellow" a bit more with exposure. I think some artistic license applied when painting figures is natural, and it will tend to over-express these very slight differences in real life for dramatic effect on the game table.

BTW, as I understand it, white wool fabric would not be dyed white. I'm not trying to pick nits, but it is my point about blended wool fibers that I bring up here. The wool would have been as "white" as the sheep it came from, subject to cleaning, bleaching and fulling.

Luke Mulder15 Jul 2007 9:39 p.m. PST

Does anybody know who contracted for the provision of the uniform coats? Was it the regimental colonels, or was it one of the ministers?

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