| Cacique Caribe | 04 May 2007 4:39 a.m. PST |
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| Cacique Caribe | 04 May 2007 4:42 a.m. PST |
It is said that the Rome's Colosseum (among other similar sites) was occasionally flooded so that small naval battles (Naumachia) could be played out, albeit in shallow water. link
link Just curious . . . Has anyone ever gamed such small naval battles in that type of setting? CC |
 John the OFM  | 04 May 2007 4:58 a.m. PST |
I seriously doubt that naval battles were ever conducted in the Colisseum, unless by canoes. Did you ever see the size of it? Let's be serious.
There ARE accounts of staged naval battles, like gladiatorial games, but in lakes near Rome. |
| Cacique Caribe | 04 May 2007 5:08 a.m. PST |
"unless by canoes" Agreed. If it was actually done there (and in other arenas) they must have certainly been small craft: "The arena itself was 83 metres by 48 metres (272 ft by 157 ft / 280 by 163 Roman feet)."
link So, if anyone did game them, they would have to use "canoes" dressed up as galleys. CC |
| rigmarole | 04 May 2007 5:28 a.m. PST |
The problem with the Flavian amphitheater (Coliseum) being flooded for naval combat (well, there is a reference to such an occurence in the historical record but it's accuracy is often put in doubt) is that there was an elaborate substructure or basement containing all equipment, the staging rooms, cages for animals etc. , all of which would have been submerged/damaged extensively through flooding. Augustus built a tailor-made structure in Trastevere (aptly named Naumachia Augusti) for just such combat. You can just divert in the Tiber water and it's easy to fill it up that way. Here's a link to the famous model of the city of Rome showing the Naumachia: link |
| Cacique Caribe | 04 May 2007 5:51 a.m. PST |
bbtoys333, Thanks for providing the English version! That is the very first link I provided, to show that other places were used in that manner also. How much fun would it be to game those small "galleys" with, say, 28mm figures? Gaming the Augustus Naumachia with 28mm figures would require a huge board since it was "1800 feet and a width of 1200 feet (552 by 355 meters)". So, just using Rome's Colosseum dimensions as an example of a smaller playing arena, which was "83 metres by 48 metres (272 ft by 157 ft)", a miniature arena for 28mm figures (if done with one figure representing one man) would be something like 45 inches by 26 inches, right? How big would you reckon the miniature "galleys" would have to be? CC |
| Cacique Caribe | 04 May 2007 6:00 a.m. PST |
Also, would the figures used on the mini-galleys be Roman Marine-types (if anyone even makes them) or would they be Gladiators? CC |
| rigmarole | 04 May 2007 6:29 a.m. PST |
Cheers CC, Sorry was too lazy ;- ) If you want to put it in the Colosseum then consider keeping it down to two ships and do boarding exercises. Like this Pompeiian fresco showing ships teaming with "marines."
Those who fought this way so far as I know were not trained to fight as gladiators and therefore would not have been dressed as such. One important thing to remember about gladiators is that they were "single fighters" ( i.e., always fought mano a mano ) , hence their Greek name "mono-machoi" -- so none of that Russel Crow "Let's fight like an army crap".
Naval combat would have been en masse so no gladiators! |
| rigmarole | 04 May 2007 6:31 a.m. PST |
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| phililphall | 04 May 2007 6:57 a.m. PST |
I believe the naumachia were staged before the underground portion of the Flavian theater was built. The original building didn't have the underfloor areas. They have found drains and inlets that allow the river to flood the place, and it apparently was flooded to quite a depth, reducing the number of spectators as it seems to have flooded the lower rows of seats. |
| Cacique Caribe | 04 May 2007 7:14 a.m. PST |
I wonder where this article gets this information: "In extraordinary circumstances, criminals might be forced to stage an elaborate naval battle (naumachia). Although these were usually fought on lakes, some scholars think they might also have been staged in the Colosseum . . ."
link This is an interesting drawing: picture It seems pretty chaotic. CC |
| vojvoda | 07 May 2007 5:51 a.m. PST |
I am working on a game for the pool at the lancaster host. It will be six ships on floats!
VR
James Mattes |
| vojvoda | 13 May 2007 11:47 a.m. PST |
Ok I have six 1/250 scale ships off ebay that I should have within the next week. I also have a crew of 12 for each. I figure cut blue insulation aroung the ships so they float. Run six players in the pool at Historicon with one ship each. Use simple rules such as my galley Sally (dummyed down) and go for it. Each player would have a round tow behind disk about 12 inches dia. that they would have foam dice to roll on and keep figures on. Ramming and movement would be by the roll of two D6 with the order determined by the roll for order of movement. Shooting would be simple 36 inches and boarding fighting man to man on D6 5/6 to kill.
What do you all think?
VR
James Mattes |
| Cacique Caribe | 15 May 2007 7:17 a.m. PST |
Very interesting, James. Could you post photos and a report of some sort when you do game it? Thanks. CC |
| vojvoda | 15 May 2007 8:18 a.m. PST |
Sure will, I am working with the guy who is selling me the ships. I have blue foam board that I am going to carve up to make the ships float and have some "shot" to use as ballist for the ships. Rules are pretty elementary right now but it is designed to be a fun game not a hardcore naval engagement. It all depends on if I get the last two ships built and all of them Seaworthy by Hcon.
VR
James Mattes |
