"Just back from Salute..." Topic

Browsing back through some of the posts on this subject of the presence of the Nazi re-enactors at Salute I was astonished to come across one by a certain BY JOHN 54 who boasts that his one joyous moment was in getting his arse out and mooning them. Very amusing. Considering that much of the crititism concerned the presence of chidren at the display this might be considered unwise? Perhaps the most appropriate place for ones arse at salute or puplic places generally is firmly esconced within ones trousers. Kind regards, Ivan.

The protests of man are many and varied, some climb monuments to shout at the inhumanity of it all, some seek office to change the system from within, more take the attitude of 'the pen is mightier than the sword' and write in stern words to their MP. Others take to the streets in direct action to 'smash the state'
Me? I showed my arse to a load of arses. I am intenstly proud of my actions and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
I found it both joyous and comforting. Much like the disgust shown by people on this site. Well done everyone.

I think that the display was really good as the soldiers and weaponary were great

BUT the mercahndise, hitler youth where too far and although I wasn't offended myself I can definantly see why some people are.

Hi Folks,
I was at the show, i was demoing at another table, so didnt get a chance to see all of the display put on. We were right beside the cannon, and I have to say most of it was very well executed and I can see why you were there and a great deal of effort that was put in to be there.

Bt i was concerned and upset to see hitler youth wandering round the show, and also the sale of some of your murchandise. (caught a look on the way to the bring and buy)

I have been a serving member of our armed forces, and so have 'done my bit'.

Your relevance at the show is very obvious, Im surprised that you have had no comments in all your previous endevours. But purhaps what this shows is there is still a lot of deep wounds in the people of europe for events that happened a long time before i was born.

I have seen many re-enactors at various shows and its always a delight to see people in armour, or uniforms from time past, I think it was a portion of your subject matter that struck a cord and the choice of unit. You maybe have thought you were 'safe' at a wargaming show, but then that by definition would suggest you have had problems in previous events, or felt you needed to justify your choices. Also a wargaming show is bound to contain the biggest collection of historical buffs outside of re-enact circles…

All in all it was a great show and i really enjoyed myself, I would go again, and I would look forwards to seeing more ww2 re-enactors such as yourselves, I just think you have to be sympathetic to the emotional feelings you will provoke.

I am lucky enough to have relitives alive that were involved in ww2, and if they were there im sure they would have been shocked to the core. My uncle still cannot speak of his experiences when he reached a concentration camp. Although this is not anything to do with the situation being commented on, it should hopefully display the level of feeling still attached to WW2

hope this is helpful to someone

cheers

So, what have we learned?
99% of the UK members of this site do not like Nazis,
Some non-Europeans cannot see what the fuss is about,
Salute, despite some early wriggling, are man enough to apologise about it,
Salute is a cracking show.
Now, please, can we move on?
Did that muttsnuts Dambusters game win any awards?
it were ace!

By John 54,Yes good post, agreed, subject closed.

As a complete aside, the other weekend I was at a Star Wars event in Leicester. Guess who else was there? Clue; it wasn't the nazis.

Was it Jar Jar Binks? – he generates a similar vibe.

Larry Dunn ? ditto ditto

Read the entire thread today out of some sick feeling like watching a train wreck. I also found this report on Salute that I think sums the convention overall. matakishi.com/news.htm

While I understand WWII being too resent a memory for some, I do think that some of this is over the top on both sides. As a child and the son of a Battle of the Bugle Veteran, I often played with toy guns in the yard. We were almost always the Americans but sometimes Germans. When my father died I found of box of WWII German coins, medals, stamps etc all Nazi related items. I put them in a shadow box on my wall in the den. Does that make me a Nazi? I have a bass plaque on the display that says WWII Memorabilia of Junior Keith Mattes (My Dad).

As to re-enactors being any more or less quirky then Wargamers I think you are arguing Apples and Oranges. I know a guy in Texas that has a working ME109. He is not a Nazi.

I also know of several groups that do WWII 1/6 scale layouts with dozen and dozens of figures. I do not think they are Nazis either.

As a child and pre-teen I read almost everything I could about WWII Germans. Does that make me a Nazi?

Who among us have not watched a TV program on WWII and some aspect of the Nazis?

I think the bottom line is the some take their study of Military History to extremes in some folks eyes. Heck my wife thinks that my 500-600 books (lost track of the number after hitting 500 in 1995) on the American Civil War is nuts.

VR
James Mattes

"As a child and pre-teen I read almost everything I could about WWII Germans. Does that make me a Nazi?"

Me too. But I grew out of it when I started to learn what they did..

! am an American wargamer who has attended and thoroughly enjoyed himself at several Salutes. Regretfully, I couldn't attend the 2007 Salute so I was eager to read about it in TMP.

Then I came across this thread.

SS re-enactors? What in the world…?

I think this issue has been ably explored in these 350+ messages and I don't presume that I could add anything substantial to the controversy. But what I would like to do is to compliment TMP and the majority of the respondents, despite their obvious passion and convictions, for the civility and reasonableness of the discussion. I'm afraid in America a similar incident would have quickly degenerated into shrill name-calling, litigation, and press-driven hyperbole "All wargamers are Nazis!" (film at 11). Worse still, it would have generated an endless parade of victimhood status seekers using sensi-speak:
"I'm offended!"
"I'm more offended!."
"Impossible!. No one could be more offended than I."
"Are you implying that you're more sensitive?"
"Only a fascist would suggest that I would dis-envalue (sic) another human-being's sensitivity!!!"
"Your hostility decreases my sense of ambient wonderment."
"Oh yeah?"
"Yeah."
..and so on.

.

It cannot be doubted that the ranks of the Waffen SS contained some very tough and tenacious soldiers. Neither is it in doubt that they contained some of the most ruthless murderers ever to darken the record of military history and the hands of the SS will be forever stained with the blood of millions of innocent people- men, women and children.
The very existence of a Waffen SS re-enactment group in Britain is anathema to me; the presence of such a group at a major wargames event is beyond comprehension.
I'd suggest that anyone complaining to the organisers should also make a second complaint – to the Police.

And what is it that you expect the police to do?

Well, radical Muslims have recently been prosecuted for glorifying anti-semitism…

And I do apologise for entering the debate at such a late juncture!

Having only just come acroos this today (after being mystified by the comment in WI of last month) would just (very late on) say
1. Nothing wrong per se with re-enacting – its not per the last above illegal. However as pointed out surely anything like this needs risk assessment – if there was group in Bradford who dress up as Taliban fighters or an IRA Flying Column would they be invited to give a presepctive to a game on ht 1980s invasion of Afghanistan or the Easter Uprising – I suspect not
2. 'They're only acting' – well we know that actors get paid – they don't volunteer to do it and provide all their own kit – so the motive is not the same – having briefly been in a WW2 German unit at one stage – my experience would be that the majority of the people were certainly right wing heading towards extreme right wing (if you wonder about what they do in public – then you don't want to do what happens in private period dinners etc – again not illegal per se of course – no more so than any other group gathering except where it breaks the criminal law on issues like racial hatred etc). I think we do need to also acknowledge that there is a racist minority in this country for whom the actions of the SS were laudable – and thats it just a teeny bit possible that some of these might end in such groups – because put it this way – there is no other context in which you can parade around in uniforms linked to an ideology like Nazism (if you had a political party that did that it would be illegal)
3. As a reader of the historical military vehicle press this very issue has certainly come up in the past (specifically re people in HJ and BDM uniforms) – as was mentioned I think a lot of living history weekends now exclude german groups. The reaction of the SBG reps (drivel etc) also illustrates a lack of comprehension itself – also the references to the environment being they thought safe shows astonishing naivety – it was a public event. The comment that they include members of the emergency services is also disturbing in a way – if that includes police officers I wonder if their forces know – what would be the consequences of say being a bobby in Bradford and an SS Untersturmfuhrer in your spare time! Again its not illegal to be a bobby and a Waffen SS re-enactor – or to belong to the BNP or indeed CPGB – but all might have relevance to your security clearance etc
4. The Waffen SS were real soldiers – many late on were conscripts – their depiction per se then is entirely legitimate. But at a showpiece public event – those saying that PCness is trying to suppress history miss the point – if you want to be accurate then the depiction of the home front could include racist nazi propaganda and the actions of the police etc – but we don't want people going round dressed as members of the SD. These displays as pointed out don't even cover the point about the evil of the system – the groups all profess (from the different ones I have looked at) a position of 'we are non political and dont' glorify the 3rd Reich ' – in the case of SBG additionally they say " The SBG is acutely aware of its controversial portrayal in this hobby and is a totally non political organization. People with para military, ideological or extreme views will NOT be accepted as members."
Maybe something to say that we recognise the appalling nature of the regime etc would be more appropriate both on their website and as mentioned by others esp at public events – you can't divorce the politics from the military history esp when it comes to the SS – those who founded the SS were after all clear that they were forging 'political soldiers' – a conscious change from the apolitical (actually of course right wing but not necessarily extreme) nature of the regular army

Apols for any typos – and of course the IRA Flying Column group would be more likely to come from say Kilburn than Bradford!

Just let it Lie…

(or "Get over it already" for the other side of the pond)

Actually, it is illegal to be member of the BNP and be in the Police

but not illegal to be a member of the communist party and be in the police.

As a WWII reenactor it was very interesting to read through this thread. The discussion sounds very familiar (although it lacks the usual insults, slanders and open threats made by SS reenactors/sympathizers against any reenactor who dares to express his concerns in regard of the portrayal of NS-Party or NS-Party related organizations.).

However, I think the way this reenactment group appeared at the show is distictive for the usual appearance of such groups. No mentioning of the „evil side" at the displays just the elite soldiers and their happy families. If you look at their website, you will find no single note about the actrocities the unit they portray has committed nor a statement that the Waffen SS was charged a criminal organization by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1946 – but you will find a lot of praising comments how brave they fought and how tough they were. Of course, they don't intend to glorify anything nor do they have a political agenda. Selling Nazi and other facist fan articles (like mugs with memorabilia of the British Union of Facists or the SS British Free Corps) isn't a political statement either. And of course they never cause any kind of offense – no matter how many people complain about their impression or how bad the press responds to their displays – if you ask them they never had any problems (like the SBG display coordinator claims).

These kind of things caused WWII reenactor groups to initiate an
<a href="http://au.geocities.com/wwii_lh_agreement/">International WWII Living History Agreement 2007</a> )
which disassociates from the portrayal of NS-party or Party related organizations because these groups gravely endanger the reputation of ordinary military reenactment and cause public repulsion of the Living History scene in general.

This thread was another affirmation of the necessity of such an agreement.

Thanks!

P.S.: If you take a look at the FAQs on the agreement website (which were drawn from actual discussions on WWII reenactment forums), you will get a slight impression what people had to face who tried to argue against supporters of SS reenactment.

link

Benjaminw1 – as always ready to admit an error – yes you are right re Police regs and BNP
"Police Regulations 2003 Schedule 1 (as amended) provides:
Reg. 1 (1) A member of a police force shall at all times abstain from any activity which is likely to interfere with the impartial discharge of his duties or which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere.
1 (2) A member of a police force shall in particular -
(a) not take an active part in politics;
(b) not belong to any organisation specified or described in a determination of the Secretary of State.
Annex AA – (the Secretary of State determined that from 1st January 2005 this provision come into force as follows):
No member of a police force may be a member of any of the following organisations-
(a) The British National Party
(b) Combat 18
(c) The National Front"
I woudl perhaps still suggest thought that being a member of a Waffen SS re-enactment unit could well fall under "any activity … which is likely to give rise to the impression amongst members of the public that it may so interfere (in the impartial execution of his duties)"

hey, I have just spent an aeon reading all the posts on this thread, and what realy gets my goat is that the folks in charge of inviting the SBG havnt made that fact explicit.

The SBG were invited to appear.

If anyone has any "issues" about the reenacting of soldiers from the other side. Perhaps instead of slagging off the reenactors involved complain to the people who organised the whole debacle. The SBG were asked to appear at this show and, out of the goodness of their hearts chose to do so. That they now get exposed to this kind of opprobrium is I think rude beyond belief.

Oh and yes there were no "nazi reenacors" just WAFFEN-SS reenactors. Did you know that the mojority of W-SS members werent partei members?

cheerio

karl

I think there has been quite a lot of slagging off of the committee for inviting these folks in this thread. As for opprobrium – kids dressed as HJ, selling hitler mugs – without recycling the whole thing – well deserved – as would it be for a group dressed up as IRA Flying Column troops from 1916-21 if they were selling An Poblacht or Bobby Sands badges

"The SBG were invited to appear."
Yes, and I think they regret that now given some of the unexpected nature of the display and merchandise.

"If anyone has any "issues" about the reenacting of soldiers from the other side. Perhaps instead of slagging off the reenactors involved complain to the people who organised the whole debacle."
I think many did. Are you sure you read the whole thread? Plus it wasn't "issues" with soldiers from the other side; it was kids dressed as HJ, non-historical Nazi merchandise and a particularly notorious SS unit that weren't typical of the German army as a whole in WW2.

"The SBG were asked to appear at this show and, out of the goodness of their hearts chose to do so. That they now get exposed to this kind of opprobrium is I think rude beyond belief."
I think it was pretty rude to expose the convention attenders (and the passers-by outside) to the sight of kids dressed as HJ and non-historical nazi merchandise.

"Oh and yes there were no "nazi reenacors" just WAFFEN-SS reenactors. Did you know that the mojority of W-SS members werent partei members?"
The 1st SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler weren't just "any unit"; they were clearly identified with the Nazi regime. There are many other Heer units that could have been chosen by a reenactment group that served on mosts fronts in WW2. How about 2nd Panzer or Panzer Lehr? (various individual Lehr units served on most fronts stretching back to Poland and possibly even the Spanish Civil War before being brought together into a panzer division in late 1943)

I can see a good Marks & Spencer advert here:

These aren't just re-enactors; they're elite Waffen-SS re-enactors….