"Just back from Salute..." Topic

Lidice was the doing of the Gestapo and read these words about the Malmedy Massacre.

link

then judge again.

Thanks for that link, Johan. Gruesome reading. It certainly makes you wonder why anyone would ever want to reenact that sort of unit. Probably the only worse thing they could reenact would be the Gestapo.

Although I wasn't even at Salute this year I would still like to try and make a comment about the re-enactors themselves. I'll be a devil's advocate for now and try to find a positive or justifiable side for them.

Firstly you guys have made numerous comments on their age and weight, this is an understandable point as it makes them look unrealistic. Well I guess younger people are not interested in WW2 history to the extent as us now balding fatties were in the 1960'-70's. The fashion for children playing with historical toy soldiers seems to have gone, along with the life lasting interest in military history. Our younger generation are becoming far more oblivious about this part of history and so not interested in joining such groups. Plus there is the very real problem that young people will simply not have the very high amount of 'disposable income' that is required to be kitted out in authentic looking uniforms.

Secondly, there is the matter that members of the group were 'strutting' about in an obvious Arian master race manner. Wasn't that how the SS acted in reality? What if these re-enactors had been shy, withdrawn and staring at their boots all day? I think many people would now be complaining that they no way acted the part in addition to their lacking physical appearance. That is the point, they were acting, the part. And if they looked like they were enjoying acting the part then don't all actors enjoy pretending to be someone they are not, it is fun to act whatever the subject.

Thirdly, many people were quite shocked at seeing the re-enactors. Had I seen some of these re-enactors I too would have been stopped in my tracks with surprise and a 'what!' or 'wow!' comment. Then my interest and curiosity would have kicked in. Now I don't know if anyone else does the following, maybe I am a bit wierd but it is what I do. I like to take a closer look at re-enactors of any type and my imagination then tries to warp me back in time and blank out the surrounding modern day backdrop. I want to go there back in time, to touch, smell and see in colour what history might have felt like to a real person at that time. Had I been next to a strutting SS enactor I would have tried to place myself back in time as a fearfull Jew or Allied POW helpless in the presence of the dangerous SS. And for a moment I might be back there, with my heart beating a bit faster, feeling just even a tiny amount of the fear of the SS's victims. For me that is how the re-enactors can help you to feel the history, as opposed to the historical distance of black and white pictures of books or film. If you back off and walk away then it is a wasted opportunity to feel the past. If the enactors are not in character then it is so much harder to feel the past yourself.

But if you want to want to choose the other path of keeping history to a clinical study of pictures in books then do not be surprised if the young are turned off uninterested. Let them live out a fantasy with their now alternative fantasy toy soldiers.

I find it unfair that the re-enactors are instantly branded as if they really are the SS themselves. In some ways it is good that the instant revoltion emotion wells up but not if there are no thoughts of your own to back up and understand those feelings. Else it is a conditioned response akin to brainwashing. As an example, I used to take books to work to do research before I embarked on painting figures from whatever era. One book I took in once was of the Waffen SS, it was original uniforms worn by modern day male models and photographed in colour. A guy I worked with and knew my hobby came over, looked at the book and with venom in his voice stated the guy in the picture looked a ****ing ****er! Then walked off…… I was quite surprised at his reaction, he had never made a comment like that with my other books. I thought doesn't he realise this is simply a male model in a uniform in a book, the guy in the picture most likely hasn't committed any atrocities. It was a conditioned response from him, he didn't think, didn't want to think, didn't care for any other point of view. Does that sound familiar?

Good points, Warpainter – we should face up to history, interrogate it. What happened was awful, and needs to be discussed, examined and accepted as part of the history of humanity. What they did wasn't abberant in that mankind is capable of horrific things, that's why it disturbs people to the extent that even the sight of these things sends them into a wild-eyed rage.

Philip K Dick was prompted to write 'Do Androids Dream of electric Sheep' by the diary of a camp commandant who didn't seem to associate the cries of children with their deaths. They just kept him from getting a good night's sleep. Dick then thought through how this could happen, and the re-enactors showed how they weren't some strange alien force but humans who had disassociated themselves from the 'other'. They had wives and children, they belonged. It's all too easy to join a book-burning and be swept along into the fires of what your group perceives as righteousness. Let's ban all investigation! Let's not mention it! Forget it! It was so horrid that no-one should talk about it!

I'm sorry to see this thread develop into such a heated argument.
Surely an apology from the Warlords would suffice? I'm sure they'll never make the same mistake again.
If people are so upset by the SS re-enactors that they feel the need to go to the press shouldn't it be over the actual re-enactment group themselves rather than the Salute committee? If Salute gets shut down over this, it isn't going to stop the re-enactment group, they will just carry on as usual, whereas we wargamers will loose one of our key shows.
I really think everyone needs to give this a couple of days to cool down and wait to see what the official Warlords response is.
At the moment John is not only getting the flak over the committee's choice to use this group but also a lot about SS re-enactment in general, which in all fairness should be directed at the re-enactors themselves.

But reenacting is a hobby, done for fun – it is not part of the education system. And having a hobby of pretending to be SS does offend lots of people, whether you agree they should be offended or not.

It doesn't matter to those who are offended that they're not real neo-Nazis, and that they might actually vote left wing. The point is that the SS reenactors' idea of fun does offend lots of other people, and they know it.

Yes, lots of other things can cause offence too, and if we all stopped doing anything that offended someone somewhere, then we probably couldn't do anything at all. But the potential offence caused by pretending to be an SS man is in a whole different league of 'causing offence', so much so that it is illegal in some countries. I can't believe these SS reenactors choose to ignore the offence they cause.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but I really would like to know more about what makes these SS reenactors tick. Their website doesn't really give much away. I suspect some of them are just keen military vehicle collectors (and they have got some good material, that is for sure) – but the rest?

Sorry, Richard Ansell, your message arrived whilst I was typing my one above. You're probably right, we are entwining two different things – the invitation of the SBG to Salute, and the hobby of SS reenacting in general.

I take your point, and will try to satisfy my curiousity about the kind of people who reenact SS by contacting the SBG direct.

Cameronian, you hit the nail on the head.

"What were these guys re-enacting? The Malmedy massacre perhaps? No."

This is compounded by the fact that they chose to reenact troops of the division (LSSAH) which was responsible for the Malmédy massacre. And they certainly didn't go out of their way to point it out.

LSSAH were also the ones that on 27 May 1940 locked up 70 to 80 men of the 2nd Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment and the Royal Artillery in a milk shed before chucking grenades into it, opening the doors so that exiting survivors could be mowed down and then administering the coup de grace to those still alive in the shed (Malmédy apologists can go and try to explain this one away).

Atrocities in Russia and other occupied countries don't really come anywhere close to the bone for a lot of people but some might begin to understand the outcry when they realize that these guys were reenacting a unit (I am specifically talking about LSSAH rather than SS in general here) that was responsible for the cold blooded murder of British or American prisonners of war who could have been the grandparents or great-uncles of people present at the show (or registering for the Marathon since these guys were wandering all other ExCel in full uniform).

I hope some people who think nothing of it realise the difference between this and people who put on a game and dress as samurai or wear LRDG towels on the one day for a lark.

but the rest?

People who either don't care about the offense they cause to other people or who actively enjoy it.

Neo-Nazis or social inadequates.

Hmm well considered rebuttall. Good point, well made. How very damning of yourself.

Have just sent an email to SBG …

"I take your point, and will try to satisfy my curiousity about the kind of people who reenact SS by contacting the SBG direct."

You could just read their website, they give what I consider to be a perfectly valid explanation for their choice of unit. They are an elite force that was involved in almost every major battle of WWII. It means they both look impressive 'and' can be legitimately included in almost all re-enactments.
Plus I'm sure the fact that movies like to include them because of their unit choice doesn't hurt the groups budget either.

We are four days into this and still no official statement from the Warlords.
Bad crisis communication next to the initial bad PR. That is why this is dragging on so long. Ideally they should have responded officially on Saturday and at the latest on Sunday, tired or not. John should never have written a 'personal' reaction (although I fully understand why he did it)and now he should keep quiet and stop playing the 'game'. You cannot win this kind of debate, so to try to open it in the first place was a bad explanantion/decision.
I'm in corporate communciations and I can tell you that not only an organization as the Warlords make these mistakes. Even big companies make even worse booboos. That is inevitable and sometimes uncontrollable! How you handle it afterwards and limit the damage is controllable.
And in these cases less (talking) is more.
Henk

I am sure the Warlords will be along with their applogy. Then you can consider the argument 'won', rub your hands with glee and relish a little ego boost for the day.

If I was the Warlords I wouldn't appologise. I would ask the re-enactor group to appologise as it was that group that did not fully explain their display in advance. Had they done so Warlords no doubt would have not booked them or asked them to change things.

If someone asked me to jump for something I didn't feel responsible for I know what I would say! :oP

You've got it bang on Warpainter.

Some people want their pound of flesh and have an Axe to grind with the Warlords in general.

I wouldn't apologise either, but the politic thing to do is apologise. I wonder however how many who castigated John and the traders at Salute will apologise for their behaviour here? Certainly not the sanctimonious Mr. Curtis or any of the other "angry mob" *spit*

BTW, best Salute I've been too bar none.

Warpainter,
Indeed the reenactors are suspiciously quiet. Or they don't care, or they think it's funny. But overall not a very warlike attitude from these 'übermenschen'. They could at least have taken their fair share in soaking of some flak. But then again I refer to my point that less is more. Everything is now directed towards the Warlords and they (the reenactors) keep under the radar and get away with it.
Even if the Warlords are partially responsible and wrong, apologising (not groveling) for their miscalculation is, IMHO, not a sign of weakness but of strength.
BTW, I still think it was a terrific show (as always) and will be back next year with a whole bunch of other enthusiasts (we were 9 from the Red Barons). It's not a few SS and a bunch of HJ brats that's going to keep me away, HAH!
Henk

I would apologise to those who were offended but not in general and include the caveat about not knowing what the re-enactors full plans were.

The 8 people who dont turn up next year because they imagine themselves to be crusaders of the common good won't be missed or even noticed.

BTW,
The guys we saw wearing T-shirts with "Meine Ehre Heisst Treue" (motto of the SS), "LAH 1939-1945 Tour" and "Hohenstauffen 1939-1945 Tour" are equally maybe even more, stupid. And they were not dressed up!

"Indeed the reenactors are suspiciously quiet. Or they don't care, or they think it's funny. "

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that they have no idea any of this is happening. (I admit it's more likely that they don't really care what a random page about wargaming thinks about them, I'm sure they've heard it all before).
Would take a big wallet indeed to be a re-enactor on the scale of those guys and play wargames.

Artemis

Hi there

I'm a renactor. I have swords, axes, armour all hand made.

I also am a role-player

I play computer games

I play wargames

I even go on holiday now and again

I know quite a few reenactors who also wargame

I personally don't think an abject apology is needed or appropriate, but a timely statement regretting any offence called, and promising careful consideration in selecting future reenactors, would do a lot to calm the waters.

I thought it was a great Salute, too! Am already batting around ideas for a participation game next year.

Simon

I've not had time to read all the comments, but I wonder how many people the SS managed to recruit at the show? The SK got me back in 1981! I couldn't bring myself to talk to them. So I had to content (not so) little me with wearing my Winston Churchill t-shirt.
Otherwise a great show and well worth the trip down from the north of Scotland.
I'd prefer no SS next year though please

I've a feeling these re-enactors have been down this road before. Maybe they have learned to keep a bit hush about the full extent of their display in advance for the same reasons. How many other groups have been through this, people resigning, people falling out with each other etc etc?

That's why I didn't think the press would be taking any action, as they surely must have been contacted for the same reasons before.

I've been to things like Duxford WW2 air show and seen very similar setups to what these re-enactors had. Except they were a 'Heer' (regular army) group and didn't go so far. But there must be a lot of other groups that have been upset or is it just the wargamers?

I have not seen their website but it might be worth checking if they have a calender of past events. Pick one, contact the group they displayed for and ask is their people had the same reaction. I think that would be interesting to know.

The whole thread shouldn't be about whether to ban reenactors from the world in gerneral but about what damage the SS reenactors could have caused or will cause wargaming in England, not from being there particularly (clearly at somewhere like Duxford and other historical 'place' events they are very valid, I have seen many a brilliant reenactment at shows. The general public view here is that they are showing history in a visual way, now I'd argue the particular group should end the show by marching some US reenactors out as prisoners and shooting them but then that's just me!) BUT from being such a large prescence at SALUTE and the whole Hitler Youth thing. I doubt the general public would get upset by the odd peadot camo guy wandering around but kids with swastikas … mmmm

To me the organising committee were probably just too trusting, if it wasn't for the selling of marching songs and the kids plus they took up a lot of space right where it was basically the first thing to see, then most of us would probably have thought it was a cool display.

So lets hope they put some boundaries on groups invited next time, like no selling stuff maybe and that they live and learn, hopefully with a real apology along the lines of " we didn't realise what they were going to do … sorry". Then we can all get on with our dice rolling and killing people on the table and calling it fun …

link

That is a very well worded and appropriate response.

Thanks to John and the Warlords.

Wargamer 57

'BTW,
The guys we saw wearing T-shirts with "Meine Ehre Heisst Treue" (motto of the SS), "LAH 1939-1945 Tour" and "Hohenstauffen 1939-1945 Tour" are equally maybe even more, stupid. And they were not dressed up!'

At last, hearbloodyhear!!!!!!
Tossyfeckinarsebiscuits!

can we all move on now? I want to get back to slating FOW!
Love and hugs
John

Hello all,

read this email exchange. This is all i'm going to post in response to 7 pages of drivel above.

"Stephen Dunn" <>
23/04/2007 15:50
To
<>
cc
<>
Subject
RE: salute 2007

Warren,

First off let me thank you and all your members for the great display you put on at Salute 2007. It was first class.

I first saw your display at Detling two years ago and when I became the organiser of Salute last year I wanted to invite you and your group. This decision was supported by my committee and I was given the task to invite you and your group to this years Salute, which I still have no regrets.

I did support the selling of merchandise on your stand, and even bought a mug myself, but this was overruled because of the complaints we were getting from members of the public and from traders both written and very verbal which was directed at my wife and other staff on our info stand.

This feeling has not just stopped with the end of the show but we are getting emails and phone calls complaining about the content of our show.

To give you an example of the type of complaints we are getting and the abuse our PRO officer is getting, (his name is John Treadaway ) please look at this web site…….

TMP link

As to one of my group physically abusing one of yours stI will be trying to find out who this was, so if you can give me any description it will helpful.

Please use my home email for replies……

I again thank you for your attendance.

Stephen Dunn Salute coordinator

----- Original Message -----

From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 2:38 PM
Subject: salute 2007

Hello Steve,

I hope you liked the display we put on for you as your INVITED GUESTS, so with that in mind I'd just like to thank you for your total lack of support for us at the show.

How come you bowed to pressure and asked us to remove the groups merchanise (presumably the images on the CD covers were offensive to people) but the trade stand next to us was allowed to continue to sell it's diorama's which themselves had those very same symbols blazoned across them, and how many other trade stands sold uniforms of a certain nature? Oh and as for one of your members physically abusing one of ours in the toilets (not quite as bad as it sounds) – well that just topped off the whole event.

Thankfully the positive comments outweighed the negative ones – but they still leave a bitter taste in the mouth.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

regards

Display coordinator for the Second Battle Group.

SBG 1,

An interesting posting.

I ‘d be grateful if you would take the time to address my numbered comments below:

1. This appears to be a private communication between the re-enactors and the warlords. I am therefore curious as to:

a. Are you one of the two parties concerned (Steve or Warren)
b. If not are you a re-enactor or a Warlord ?
c. If neither please can you say who you are and how you got this message to post on a public forum (do you have the permission of both parties) ?
d. Were you in attendance at Salute ?

2. This appears to be the first public communication from the re-enactors on the subject. I would very much like to hear the re-enactors side of this in the interests of balance (see my previous posting) but given the tone of some of the messages in this string, I can understand that they would be reluctant to do so for fear of being overwhelmed with offensive replies. I think it would be good form for the re-enactors to make a statement on their own site in response to the Warlords apology, but that's their business.

3. I have read the Warlords apology and find it quite proper and acceptable, as I believe the majority of the community do and politely request a cessation of correspondence on the topic. I am however interested as to how an apparently private communication has subsequently come to be posted on a public forum and would ask you for an explanation.

4. I also notice that this is the first posting for SBG1 and that you joined today to make this single entry. This of course makes me wonder if you are actually part of the gaming community (maybe someone afraid of using their real identity ?) or maybe a journalist or someone similar with another agenda ?
`
5. It's a shame that you haven't taken the time to read the seven pages of what you describe as "drivel" that compose this thread (incidentally how can you condemn it as drivel if you haven't actually read it ?)

Kind regards

Guy

PS: My real name is Guy Carmichael, I was at the show, I was a member of the Warlords back in the 1980's and now live abroad (just so you know who I am for balance).

What a deeply disturbing development.

Henry
Battlegames

" 5. It's a shame that you haven't taken the time to read the seven pages of what you describe as "drivel" that compose this thread (incidentally how can you condemn it as drivel if you haven't actually read it ?)"

Where is the statement that he didn't read the aforementioned 7 pages?

He was only obeying orders.

Age induced memory loss frustrates my ability to quote exactly but, "what a revolting development this is" springs to mind after reading most of this outpouring of words.

A writers inability to see the face of the person who just wrote words not intended to offend, but did anyway, adds to the hostility and venom of responses that would have been moderated by both parties physical presence. I know I have been guilty of the same thing, but I will try to change how I respond to frustrating or difficult issues, as a result of this bloodletting.

Please remember the words you leave here are forever, which is why many of us (myself included) opt for a pen name, so that our occasional lapses into incivility don't come back to haunt us.

Remember the "hunt for the dunster" and how his previous words were used to hurt his credibility in the present. Such is the nature of the Web and emotional issues, but every participant should remember to be civil to the people who share our hobby (there are too few of us). I have been guilty of incivility in other areas, for which I apologize to any I offended, and am confident this issue will strengthen our avocation rather than weaken it.

My wife and I will make every effort to attend Salute next year with as many of our staff as possible. I hope we will only be a small part of those who make the journey from the States…

I/S

Fair comment Peter, my mistake.

SBG1 please disregard point 5 on my posting. I am however a little disappointed that you have decided to brand everyone's posting as drivel, even those that have argued your side of the debate.

I'm rather hoping to hear from SBG1.

Given the title he has chosen I take it he represents the Second Battle Group. If that's the case it's unfortunate that the only response from the re-enactors to this thread is from someone hiding their true identity and releasing what appears to be a private e-mail (maybe SBG1 is the gentleman Stephen Karen who was Cced on the original post ?).

Thanks for pointing out my error Peter and I look forward to SBG1's reply to points 1 to 4.

Cheers

Guy

Okay

I said I wouldn't post again but…

Bear in mind that we recieved the following communication from Andy – chair of the 2BG – but decided not to post it because we didn't want to look like we were trying to 'dodge the bullet'. We wanted to just end the matter and say we were sorry, as a group, for offending anyone.

Since someone else (with a hidden email address: SBG00000001) has decided to try and raise the stakes, this needs to be said. I have complained to Bill Armintrout about postings including personal details, addresses etc, and clips from personal emails being included without permission but all – so far – to no avail.

So – perhaps the editor would like to not take this post down as well?. Like I said: the following is from Andy – Chair of the 2BG and is well worth reading. He has given us full permission to use this text. The Warlords Committee statement still stands as per previous links. Individuals, of course, are free to express their own opinions: unless we really are living in Nazi Germany…

Salute Zero Seven and the Second Battle Group

In response to numerous, critical remarks made on the war gamers forum I would like to make a statement about the Second Battle Group and its membership.

As you will read on our website, or on our information leaflet, we are a non political organisation and will not accept members with right wing or para-military views. The SBG has members who are predominately English, but we also have many members of various nationalities and living in numerous countries worldwide. Our membership also comprises of many serving and ex members of the British armed forces, including a large number of who belong to the various emergency services.

We've worked, and continue to work, with many prestigious organisations around the country and we have just donated £550.00 GBP to the British WWII Hill 112 organisation. Many of our members collect for, or have assisted, the British Legion, and other similar charities. In addition to this, a number of our members are, or have been, volunteer workers for organisations such as Mencap and similar charities. The SBG has also been utilised by various film and TV companies in the past, including the BBC, ITV, Channels 4 & 5 and major international film companies. Our members have also lectured and displayed at organisations as diverse as schools, military establishments, museums and many public shows during our history. None of this could have been achieved if we had links to, or if our members had links to, far right, racist organisations.

The reason for our presence at Excel last Saturday was because we were asked by the committee of the SALUTE show to put on a WWII display at the Excel centre. This was purely for educational purposes for the mere fact that many war gamers utilise and use various German World War Two, regiments, units and armies for their war gaming activities. It was thought that by seeing the units they use for their war gaming activities being 'brought to life' it would be of immense value to their hobby and future research. As it happens there was a war game scenario at Excel displaying Grenadiers of the 12th SS Hitler Jugend division.

Many of our members gave their free time for this purpose, and all doing so at their own expense. There were very limited funds available for our attendance but we did the best that we could under the circumstances. As some SBG members are war gamers themselves we decided that it would be of interest to people attending the SALUTE show to see us and being a war gamers convention we thought that we would be on "safe territory". The SBG is simply a WWII living History and Historical Society. We do not set out to upset or to shock people. Our aim is to portray the forces and conditions of the Third Reich in WWII and doing so for educational purposes without any form of glorification whatsoever.

About a 1/4 of the SBG membership was at the Excel centre to represent what the group was "as a whole" including civilian and non-combatant organisations such as DRK nurses, Helferins, BDM and HJ etc. not just to reflect a battle group combat scene. Also the cost and aggravation of getting all the vehicles and display equipment there (and away again afterwards of course) as well as the cost in time and manpower etc. was huge and was presented as more of a service to SALUTE and the attending war gamers/public than what we considered to be advantageous to the SBG. In addition to this a number of members took unpaid days off from work to set up the display the previous day.

In 29 years we've displayed at numerous non military shows with zero abuse and complaints and didn't expect what we got at a "Military" war gamers event?. The mugs and CDs that were on sale where what you can buy anywhere online and at museums and are not "Right wing" in any way, shape or form, and neither contain any modern day politics etc. They were obviously popular as we sold loads of them at SALUTE before having to shut down. We appreciate that SALUTE had limited funds to pay us with and therefore we had to set up a small stall to reclaim some funds to cover our costs.

Finally I can understand that the HJ may have offended some people, but to accurately portray a scene from late-war home front Germany it was deemed that their presence would be accurate and educational. We do have numerous information boards explaining why certain members are dressed as they are and we do have one explaining why the HJ are on the display and dressed as they are. We did not display the board on this occasion as once again we thought that we were on "Safe territory" the event being a war gamers club.

Once again, we are sorry if we offended anyone and as previously stated it was not our aim to shock, offend or upset those in attendance.

Andy Coleborn
SBG Chairman

John,

Thanks for this posting. It brings balance to the argument and I for one will cease all further communication on this subject.

SBG1, please don't bother to respond to my previous questions, frankly I'm not interested in who you are or what you have to say any longer as you haven't had the moral conviction to stand up to identify yourself or explain your actions.

Andy Coleborn, thank you for your response. While I am still uncomfortable with some of the images displayed at the show, I do value your groups contribution to recreating living history for educational purposes in private and am grateful to you for your public reply.

Kind regards

Guy

I was not going to post a reply as I missed Salute for the first time since 1982, due to my wife being ill, but what with all the attacks on John Treadaway and the South London Warlords, for inviting the Battle Group, I had to reply.

I will give you my credentials for writing this post, I was a soldier a very long time in the British Army, took part in numerous combat situations, and was wounded, my grandfather fought in the Cameronians in the WW1, and my father served in the RAF in WW2.

I think it's an absolute disgrace that there should be comments on here from people complaining about this group, that were not even at Salute.

If you wanted to complain, and you were there at the show, you should have complained to the Warlords direct, via their web site, or spoken discretly to John, or any other member of the Warlords committee on the day, and just have said you took offence at the Group.

I am sure the Walords would have noted your grievance, and took it on board, but to come on here and complain when you were not at the show, and even if you were, is, in my view a disgrace.

The South London Warlords puts on the best one day show in the country in my opinion, and I am not a member, they work there socks of to provide you, the punter the very best show, as where else will you get every manufacturer under one roof.

Again, all you had to do was privately complain to the Warlords, but you choose to rant and rave on here, get a life for sake.

The merit of having the Group at the show, or not, does not concern me one jot, what concerns me is the attacks on friends and hard working members of the Warlords by no nothing people who love to see their comments in print.

If you want to do something about all the evil in the world, join the British Army, or whatever army is in your country and fight evil, just do not come on here and rant and rave about people who spend all year organising a show for your benefit.

sbg00000001 is me warren pestell. i'm not hiding – i did not intend to make 1 post soe the username was really irrelvent. i am the display coordinator for the sbg, therefore i am a reenactor.

i was really gonna leave this alone and let the whole thing just settle – until that 'apology' was put out – saying 'we didn't know what the sbg were gonna do – it's all their fault' (i.e. mine as person in charge of the display) – well they did, as you can see. Our displays always contain the same elements.

i am however sorry to have left email addresses in my post. i cannot find anyway of editing my post so we'll have to wait for the editor to remove them.

there is that ok?

Thants easy Warren you just delete the post and repubish the bits you have permission to use. ie your bits.

John

I have complained to Bill Armintrout about postings including personal details, addresses etc, and clips from personal emails being included without permission but all – so far – to no avail.

Sorry, haven't seen your complaint yet – just got back to the office… (will go look for it)

Email addresses already removed from the previous post.

Bill

Thanks for that. What is the policy of reproducing material without permission on TMP?

What is the policy of reproducing material without permission on TMP?

Quoting from a private email without permission is usually discouraged at TMP.

However, it appears to me that in this case, the SBG quotation falls under "fair use" – they have a legitimate right to quote from the email, to establish the point they are attempting to make.

Material not copy written and posted on the web cannot be protected, to my knowledge, but an attorney familiar with web legal issues would have to provide more specific details.

E-mail is another issue. Maybe some of our members with legal backgrounds in this issue could start a separate post about privacy rights regarding postings, e-mail, etc…

I know you can search Yahoo by e-mail address to view lots of an individual's e-mail if it has a Yahoo source, which I found scary from a privacy point myself.

…I remain your loyal idiot.

To bad that people who have contributed so much to the hobby are under constant attack for trying to give us an even better show.

As I've already pointed out in an earlier mail I'm a wargamer, and have been for the last three decades. Really passionate about it too, and very thankful for people like John, Paul and others who devote what must be an enormous amount of time to give us a great show.

As a result of being a wargamer I have a keen interest in history (some periods more than others) but I find it very disturbing if people start to get passionate about history.
Not only extremely dangerous but from my point of view very, very silly too.

Consider this. My father was an armed resistance fighter during WWII and fought against the German invaders. He was also a staunch communist. Wounded on three separate occasions over a four year period and crippled for life by the last bullet that smashed his left hip. It eventually caused his premature death at the age of 69 since he died during a hip replacement operation. I never loved any man more in my life than my father and in my eyes he was a hero.

Never got any aknowledgement from the Belgian government for his actions and neither did any of his 'comrades' since after the war they were considered 'not right'.
The Canadian soldiers with whom he fought did however.

I joined the Armed Forces in the early seventies and guess who was considered our primary enemy at that time? Right!

And I should get upset by some people wearing a 60+ year old uniform that isn't even theirs, at a wargame show?
Blame show organizers for trying to make it the best show they can possibly offer?

I don't think so.

Well to add my six pence to the above – I thought it was a fantastic show – easy to get to by train, easy to get in, hardly any queue – and we got there at about 10.15 – and masses of fantastic games – loved the Aztec display – my boy loved the Arnhem bridge game – I thought the trench raid looked superb.

We had fun playing Horrorclix, and looking at the colonial games – so much so my son now has some Zulu's and British – thanks to the chaps at Redoubt for helping us out with a subject I know nothing about – and thanks for the guys at Hornchurch for the display that started it – yes Mr Gill that includes you!

The 28mm Waterloo game was brilliant

Loads of traders – especially loved the Freebooters figures.

Met up with a few old friends

Ok the HY left a bad taste – but I don't even think my son noticed them and I just stayed away from them – didn't even notice them selling anything.

So in conclusion – I thought it was a really good show – loved the new location (my last visit was at Olympia years ago) – and I think it would be poor if any of the organiser had to resign over a choice of display.

In hindsight it might not have been an inspired choice but if that's the worse they ever do surely it will not be that bad.

I think the important thing is was the rest of the show good for everyone?

Well bed beckons

Gary Flack

The show itself was excellent and I for one will definitely be back next year.

What puzzles me is that some people seem unable to differentiate between fact and fiction.

Yes, they were re-enacting and the operative word here is ACTING.

I know there are some – fill in any equivalent for stupid you like- that have attacked ACTORS for playing a villaneous role in a film or television series but most of us still have the capability to keep both worlds separated.

Well done Warlords!. As far as I can see the only 'mistake' you make is being succesful

Gary Flack,

Thanks for the comment about our game and our best to your son – I hope he went home and watched 'A Bridge Too Far Immediately' is no well on his way to spending his life long savings in recreating Operation Market Garden in the scale of his choice (I wouldn't recommend 1/32 on the wallet!)

John,

Thanks for posting the SGB's response. It was only fair and proper to do and it good to have a better perspective on their group and their intentions on the day.

Prehaps we can all just talk about what we liked about the show now. I sure wish I could have had a go at that Dambusters game….

Gary Flack – Our thanks to your boy, really glad you liked the game. I hope he went home and watched 'A Bridge Too Far' Immediately and is now well on his way to buying Operation Market Garden in the scale of his choice (We would not recommend 1/32 for wallet considerations)

If anyone took any pics of our 'John Frost Bridge' game (Arnhem 1/32 scale) we would love to see them

please send them too azanti0029@yahoo.co.uk

Also you can see loads of pics of our game at the organisers web site

myspace.com/lancenielsen

Well having read all posts I see it this way:
- people are free to choose their hobby
- people have different perceptions/tastes on what is permissable and we should respect that
- there is no legal obligation or rule to deny SBG their reenactment (at least in England)
- including them in a wargaming show is at least a PR risk and therefore probably not a good move
- in this case the risk backfired a bit
- the longer the discussion the more personal and sharp it seems to get
- it always pays off to be honest

But
- It was a very good show
- for the 9th time we flew in from The Netherlands and had a good day out
- Lots of games, traders and nice people around
- I will certainly be back next year
- Thanks to the Warlords
Maybe we should go back to silly things like playing with toy soldiers.

Gary Flak,

Thanks for the kind words.