"Just back from Salute..." Topic

Mr. Treadaway

I don't tend to think of "hurcheon" as a pseudonym as it is fairly well associated with me elsewhere.

To quote your own words
"Of course, we knew that the reenactors this year were going to be a controversial choice. We're not stupid or insensitive to peoples' feelings on the subject."

and
"Indeed some of our own members are very uneasy about the Second battle group's involvement. We do understand. What we hope is that it will cause discussion within the hobby about topics and themes for gaming and re-enacting and that we will all gain something from that debate and discussion."

From those words perhaps you can see why people have the impression that there was almost an intend to cause a storm over this one.

Colin D. Speirs
aka hurcheon or Ar-Pharazon

That seems to be a case of mixing past and present tense Hurcheon.

"we 'knew' that the…."

"what we 'hope' is…."

John,

Hopefully now we can all put this sad event behind us, and we can all get on with some model carnage on the game table.

If wargames has taught me anything, it is that real war is far to terrible to contemplate and maybe mankind should settle all wars on the wargames table.

Real war sucks, and should only be carried out in miniature!

Take care one and all

Agent Smith (Glen Hayward)

Just read this whole thread on the recommendation of a fellow wargamer and think that the Warlords took a very brave decision in inviting SBG. While this is not to everyone's taste (and I think that 99% of re-enactors are Walts with too much money and too little sense), I do not believe that one group of re-enactors should be classed as 'bad' while other groups of re-enactors are classed as 'good'.

Have discussed the debate with my wife and her…er..my opinion is that while this may or may not be distasteful, many of our fathers, uncles, grandfathers et al fought so that modern Britain can have strange people dressing up in SS uniform and even their kids in Hitler Youth outfits. May not be my cup of tea (Oops! Sorry for the reference to the mug, but do like the idea of the musical one! :) ) but these people are allowed to do it. Also not a fan of people that treat their kids as fashion accesories, but hey that's their choice.

While seeing them at Salute would not have bothered me one way or the other, I think that any re-enactor group is just taking up valuable gaming space. Still remember seeing the Dr Who group and getting a little worried as they played their UNIT game. I also agree with the oh so few posts that wonder at the dual standard of 1/72nd scale is OK for Waffen SS but one to one isn't. At least, I can say that I am consistent! :)

And before any one jumps on me for supporting Warlords (it was my favourite comic too!), I had two uncles (one in 8th Army and the other in the 9th Seaforths and he joined them as they went over the Rhine) that fought in WW2 and my wife's maternal grandfather was killed when his Lanc took on the flying attributes of a house brick. Neither of us are Neo-Nazis and both of us are Christians.

If anyone needs me real name for vilification, then I am sure that the Moderator will pass on any appropriate posts. Either way, my wife and I are both cheesed off at missing what is a great show.

Very good response by John to the words of people on here, he has the ball's to stand up and should be applauded for it, and it was not his fault entirely at all. Yet see's the discomfort it has caused and I know he will act accordingly.

When the hits the fan its hard to stand in its way, but he does, RESPECT TO YOU.

Tony Yates

Artemis

The quotes are cut and paste jobs from Mr. Treadaway. Since the statement about controversy is in the past tense then I have to belive that they decided to go ahead in the full knowledge that it would spark a reaction.

To try and be surprised by such a reaction is disingenuous at best

I think when I complained about the memorabilia (specifically), I'd have appreciated not being called a 'stupid b&^^*' and heard some choice remarks about kitchens and ironing as I walked away from the info stand, but then I realise women are not very welcome by some in the hobby, so I was not very surprised by the reaction.

The reenactors did not ruin the show for me, I just thought them in bad taste and said so at the time and here. I don't expect people to flagellate themselves over it, merely take on board what people have said and give serious thought to it. Seems that has been done so that seems more than fair to me.

I'll be at the show next year, a reenactment group with weird ideas and a few blokes who can't get over the idea of women who model metal miniatures instead of on page 3, were outweighed by the great traders and genuinely friendly game hosts.

Rachel.

I have to say that I feel it is Mr Treadway's posts that have "compounded" the problem, at least here.

A quick and simple apology, without qualifications, would have laid the matter to rest in fairly short order. We all make mistakes. Admitting to them and saying sorry often heals things very quickly.

All-in-all it would have been best had Mr Treadway not said a thing, but left the response to the Salute committee.

He choose not to do that and has simply made matters worse. His initial, and rather specious, defence certainly poured fuel on the flames.

And come on, to suggest that the "wargamer" who reported the matter to the papers had in some way compounded the problem… What utter nonsense! If the committee did not have the common sense to see that their decision would cause serious offence, and that the potential for a major PR disaster existed, then they have only got themselves to blame if the lid blows off.

My advice to Mr Treadway and the Salute committee is simple. If I were in such a hole, I would stop digging and start thinking of how I could extricate myself from it as quickly, and with as much dignity, as possible.

I await the "official" statement with interest. I just hope it contains a bit more contrition, and a few less caveats, than the "unofficial" one on here. Now is NOT the time to display a bunker mentality, if you'll pardon the expression.

Leo Anikey.

blimey Rachel, what a narrow minded attitude shown to you by the blokes on the info stand.

If you can remember what they looked like, perhaps its worth dropping the Warlords a line, they certainly could do without Idiots like these helping out at the show.

I went to the lengths of purchasing a copy of "The Sun" just to make sure that nothing untoward had been printed, luckily for Salute, the headline today was the fact that the Queen was an Arsenal supporter!!
The young lady on page 3 was quite nice though(Sorry Rachel)
and the football write-ups were good.

I also spoke to two people who had been to Excel to pick up packs for the Marathon, one lady had seen the Star Wars stormtroopers, and the gun manned by the SS, and thought nothing of it, however another lady had seen the SS gentleman in the black uniform with the swastika armband, and had noticed that some of the "soldiers" had SS flashes, and thought it was " A bit too near the mark" she also said other people around her in the queue made comments about a lack of taste, and not the sort of thing that they wanted to see.

Thanks to John Treadaway for posting his reply to the points raised in this thread, it has caused a lot of debate, and some interesting discussion has taken place.

Myself, I don't have any problem with re-enactors, i think a lot of them do a grand job, the problem was more with the focus of this group, and the lack of any balance whatsoever.
Lets hope that lessons have been learnt here.

Salute is the premier event in the UK wargaming calendar, and I would hate to think that this one small mistake could have an adverse effect on the show.

Finally, I do use a forum name, and its the same name on all the forums I belong to. I don't hide behind my name, but it does suit me quite well!!!:-]]]

I did put all this in a previous post, but that has disappeared, and is probably lurking on another thread somewhere, looking bloody stupid!!!

Nigel Higgins
Anglian Miniatures
(and yes, I do have suspect SCW Nationalist figures in my range!!!)

One more comment on re-enactors in general; I've been to the last 3 Salutes, and the best re-enactors were the guys pretending to be roman legionaries at Salute '05. They took the time to explain a bit about what they were doing, rather than just sitting on their arse drinking tea all day or wandering around the show (in costume) buying miniatures.

The comments about them being a walking uniform guide are a bit odd; I doubt they're any more accurate than an Osprey book, personally. Less useful, certainly, as they're not going to hang around my living room as I paint my minis.

Well, maybe if you ask nicely…

Hurcheon

My point was that you seemed to translate what was clearly 'we knew that it would be controversial' into 'the reason we did it was because it was controversial'. Those are two distinctly different things.

Thanks again to all of you who posted comments – both negative and positive – and had the courage to put their names to them.

Sorry – but I'm not going to comment anymore on what I said earlier, whether I should have said it, whether anyone thinks my arguments specious, or whether I actually care about that.

But particular thanks go out to all (of the many) people who have emailed me personally with support and especially those like Tony Yates who did so through this site as well.

As I said to Bill the Editor, when people stand up and get counted, I have great respect. Stand up and see the real enemy for who and what he is: it's just the sort of thing my parents did during the war when they fought the real Nazi's. And won.

John T

John

I've neeb using "hurcheon" on Yahoo mailing lists, my hotmail account from before Microsoft took them over, my Yahoo mail account, any forum where I am not Ar-Pharazon, the Chivalry and Sorcery players database I used to run. I've been using it for 8 years.

I've been on electronic comms from before the widespread commercial internet, in the bulletin board days, as you might recall, "nicks", nicknames rather than pseudonyms, were standard.

However, if you note, some of your greatest "defenders" are pseudonymous.

Warpainter, combatpainter, Thurlac, Kirishima, Supreme Dalek, Campaigner1, Lowtardog, Brett1815 and The Man from La Mancha.

Trying to draw a comparison between using a nickname on a forum, and making a monumental cock-up like Salute's re-enactment guests shows a continued lack of judgement.

Artemis

Having known that it would be controversial in advance, they went and did it anyway.

I can't imagine that AFTER the event, the committe said to themselves

"Well, I don't know why we invited the offensive folk in, but by gum, the debate it seems to have stimulated, that's an excellent result, makes our unthinking and fooish decision less dimwitted now"

If they anticipated controversy they had to have a reason for going ahead. If they didn't let others in their club know in advance then their fellow club members should remonstrate with them. Salute bears their club name after all.

Artemis, they were wrong, they made a severe error in judgement. If they didn't think it through, that only compounds the error

"Having known that it would be controversial in advance, they went and did it anyway."

Yes, I can also believe quite easily that they knew it would cause debate and that some of them were also happy that that would happen.

However I would guess from common sense and from what John has stated himself that knowing those things were not the reason why they were allowed to show at Salute. The reason was that they are a large professional company with an impressive and eyecatching display.

Had other things not gone the way they did, such as almost all the other reenactors not making it then the presence of such a display might easily have been seen as a boon by many more people than it currently was.

I can imagine how difficult a decision it would have been in the last minute run up to Salute, knowing then that only 2 reenactment troupes were coming whether or not to cancel this particular one purely because it would cause some controversy. Many business decisions are made knowing controversy will occur, some pay off and some don't. The easiest analogy is the artworld where all kinds of dodgy crap gets show. Some of it gets lambasted, some of it sells for millons and some of it ends up making more money from the publicity about the controversy than it cost them in the first place.

Just because I don't believe I would have made the decision they came to doesn't mean I cannot see possible reasons why they did.

As long as one of your Princes dresses up like a Nazi, I guess it's OK, then?

Well I enjoyed the show. Had lots of fun talking to people, saw some great games, spent lots of money and wasn't particularly offended by anyone. The re-enactor kids I spoke to seemed like nice lads to me and seeing as I don't know their parents or what they believe, I'll refrain from calling them "idiots" or "scum".

I for one am looking forward to next year.

Trev

Me too, great show. I've been going to Salute for 15 years and will be there next year without a doubt. Hats off to the Warlords for all their hard work in making the show a success overall, but having the SS along was just jaw droppingly grotesque. What were they thinking???

People, who want to dress up. Like SS men. Awesome. If there's anyone who doesn't think that's a really bad idea, just trust me on this- it is.

Wargaming is never going to be the coolest hobby, and I'm as uncool as they come, but this sort of thing just reinforces all the worst and most negative stereotypes. Its as if a team of the best wargames brains in the country had sat down and said- 'Ok so we've got the faintly uncool bit taped, now lets see if we can make ourselves look a bit disturbing and creepy as well. I've got it- people dressed up like Nazis- that should do the trick!'

Still, its got us talking- and I can't wait till next year.

"As I said to Bill the Editor, when people stand up and get counted, I have great respect."

A Peter Merritt contacted Bill the Editor and asked that his comments be posted on the Poll thread.

A Peter Merritt is lsted as the Public Relations and Marketing Officer of the Warlords:

link

I acknowledge that there may well be two wargaming Peter Merritts in the UK. But this one did not identify himself as a Warlords officer to Bill. And Mr. Treadaway seems to respect only those who have taken his side on this thread.

Apparently the Warlords' interpretation of "stand up and be counted" would differ from mine.

Allen

Mr. Treadaway has also said that he can't resign from anything as he isn't an office bearer.

This may be true of the Warlords, I don't know, but he is listed as the Chairman of Salute.

Two the last two posters.

a) Use real names (grow up)

b) Suprisingly I only take responsibility for the things I say not what any of the Peter Merritts of this world say. That's why I actually use my name (see a)

c) On the basis of what you are now trying to do, if you are gonna choose a stupid name to hide behind, my best suggestion is 'MacArthur'. Failing that, again – if you want me to take you seriously, see a)

d) I never said I 'can't resign' from anything. Learn to read. I'm the elected chair of the Warlords committee, hold a post (though no vote except a casting vote) and can resign any time I think it appropriate. It just aint appropriate.

You wanna borrow my shovel or are you gonna keep digging with that muck rake you're using? You're doing such a great job I don't want to stop you now…

Oh – and PS: which parts of this being my personal comments and not the opinions of the Warlords are you not getting? Still just my views going on here (under my real name). The Warlords committee made their decision last night and it'll be posted on the club website real soon.

John T

Interesting points coming out of the original topic [hmmm…maybe John Treadaway's comment about discussion was valid after all!]

I certainly don't think John should be vilified for a collective error. The Warlords group who organised the show made a mistake…fair enough…I guess I've made one or two of those myself in my time :-)

At least John was brave enough to put his head above the parapet on a personal level and try to answer some of the comments.

It sounds like the re-enactment debacle won't happen again…that's fine by me and I'm happy to accept that as the end of the matter.

John's point about using obscure names is interesting…you may find it hard to believe but my name isn't really Alfredo Garcia! I thnk people choose names for all sorts of reasons..not just to disguise who they are but it's an interesting point.

Most interesting is that I've discovered who Hurcheon is and I suspect we were at Strathclyde University together [unless there are 2 Colin D Speirs around]…it's just like Friends Reunited!!!

Alastair

Dear Mr Treadway,

I think your clubs's decision to issue a public apology is a correct one and whilst it was probably inevitable in terms of damage control, I applaud you and your fellow committee members for doing the right thing. The high profile of events like yours means there is an added repsonsibility to the hobby community as whole. Making a mea culpa is never easy and you have my respect for being able to acknowledge the error of judgement.

Now that an apology is forthcoming, you might be wise to withdraw into dignified silence. Something you in fact suggested yourself. Debating the use of real names vs posting names looks like a silly way to deflect criticism.

I understand that in the United Kingdom the newspapers still take letters to the editor from 'AE of Lincolnshire' or 'name withheld at request'. I understand secret ballots are still in vogue too. Neither invalidates either the critique or the 'vote'.

It sounds`rater petulant, rather like suggesting I'll meet you behind the bike shed after school, if you have the guts. Somewhat detracts from your dignity if anything. If a poster has made some assinine or clearly off target attack, either address the attack or let the poster's idiocy speak for itself.

Carlos,

(Now whether that's my real name or not is my business, it's up to you as to whether that invalidates my remarks)

Mr Treadaway,

Apologies for mispelling your name too, I will own to having stubby fingers. Sorry my posts are littered with typos.

Two quick points:

1) How many of those outraged specifically at the SS re-enactors selling merchandise were equally offended at the numerous traders offering books on the Nazis/SS, vehicles and figures depicting SS units, etc etc.

2) Several posters have mentioned that a Wehrmacht unit would have been perfectly acceptable. Prince William dressed as a member of the Afrika Korps, yet was still described by the media (and some posters on here, whom one would have thought might have been more aware of the difference) as being dressed as a Nazi.

BTW, this is my real name. And you thought the people who dressed their kids as Hitler Youth were thoughtless…..

I thought that Prince Harry received universal condemnation because he got the uniform wrong. Everyone knows (or at least does now) that the DAK didn't wear swastika armbands. It was the armband that did for him. If he hadn't worn that, he'd have just looked like a student from Saarf London on a night out.

BTW, this is my real name. And you thought the people who dressed their kids as Hitler Youth were thoughtless…..

Doug

Mr. Treadaway

About the resignation thing. You are, of course correct. I remembered this bit

"Personal Point number six: At one point, whoever "nvrsaynvr" is said: "This wasn't a bad idea in retrospect. It was a bad idea from the get go. I hope the next thing we hear from Mr. Treadaway is his apologetic resignation." I asked afterwards "my resignation from what" and still haven't had a reply."

But misremembered the interpretation. You did go on to talk about salute and the Warlords.

However, as I have stated earlier. Using nicknames is perfectly normal behaviour on any sort of forum. They are nicknames, nor pseudonyms.

I also take responsibilty for what I say, which is why I do apologise when I get things wrong.

I think your clubs's decision to issue a public apology is a correct one and whilst it was probably inevitable in terms of damage control, I applaud you and your fellow committee members for doing the right thing.

There's been an apology issued by the Club? Whereabouts on their website?

I'd like to know more about this SBG organisation. I've checked out their website, but other than a very selective unit history, a short reenactment group history, and loads of photos that show some very well-done vehicles and uniforms, there is little there about what makes these reenactors tick. I suspect you would have to get into their password-protected members-only area to find that out.

While I loved the little experience I've had of the hobby of reenacting, I just can't imagine the type who would voluntarily reenact such an unpopular and controversial unit as the SS. The photos on the site show a reasonably clean-cut looking group of all ages. Where do these people come from, and what do they say at work or school when asked about their hobby (I have enough trouble saying I play with toy soldiers, let alone that I pretend to be an SS-man)?

As the SBG has so many people interested in military history, I'd not be surprised if some of them are also wargamers, and therefore that some of those SBG wargamers might also be TMP members. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the SBG members-only forum to see what they're saying about their experience at Salute, and the subsequent reaction on TMP!

Roly Hermans
Paraparaumu, New Zealand

A couple of points again, I'm afraid. This is all personal but does contain some points of interest about the Warlords and other members etc.

1) I checked with a Peter Merritt of may acquaintance this morning. Yes he did try to post an opinion to this thread but – as he had only just joined the TMP – couldn't do so. There's nothing underhand about this Allen (aecurtis). No wool trying to be pulled over anyone's eyes. His comments are posted to the bottom of page two of this long thread.

2) Carlos – petulant or not, there is no good reason whatsoever to hide your true identity on a web forum. I don't care if it's traditional or if it's the name one used to use at school or on any other website. I respect that our society gives you the right to do it. Our society gives Second battle Group the right to dress up. What's the difference? We all just make judgement calls as we see fit based on the information we have available and I certainly make my judgements based – in part – on how open I perceive people to be – especially when they are accusing me of being a ‘spin doctor'.

3) Finally, I'd like to take the advice of many people on this forum (myself included and ‘let this all go' but… I've just spent 25 minutes on the phone to a (granted) very nice chap (hopefully) from the Jewish Chronicle. He seemed a nice fellow, anyway. I don't tend to judge people by their profession and I've met some nice reporters in my time, so we'll see how I'm quoted I guess.

The reason I was speaking to him is because someone who is a ‘TMPer' and was at the show on Saturday has – for want of a better word – ‘grassed up' the Warlords and Salute to the Jewish Chronicle about the inevitable reenactment bit. Don't get me wrong: anyone in the free society that we live in (and that my parents generation fought to preserve) are within their rights to speak to anyone about anything that isn't covered by the official secrets act. But consider these two points:

a) Will the person that did it now do what I do and have the guts to stand up, give his or her real name and an email contact and say why they did it (and if they have received or been promised payment). This is to level the playing field and open them up to the same kind of McCarthyism style witch hunt that I'm getting so that…

b) When Salute doesn't happen, 6000 people can email him/her and or vilify them on a public website?

Does anyone understand the stress that this causes to the committee trying to run a wargames show?

Does anyone – as they smugly sit behind their anonymous ‘knicknames', ‘pseudonyms', ‘nomme de guerre' (‘handles' I think we used to call them on CB radio when I was young) – does anyone understand how close you are to watching the ritual slaughter of a goose, eggs (golden or not) included. This kind of selfishness will wreck it for everyone.

I watched via the media what Ken Livingstone went through last year for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time while (allegedly) several sheets to the wind. None of the members of the Warlords committee have Ken's backup, position, pay packet or requirement to do his job. Including me.

Any smarty pants got the cahounas to stand up and be counted?

John T

PS. The apology from the club is still being typed by the secretary, to be posted on the Warlords web site as soon as possible. Democracy – rather than fascism or internet free for alls – takes time.

PPS. Gee – I hope I've still got a job after all this (my employer probably wont take kindly to this story with my name in it in the Jewish Chronicle. Damn – what a fool I was: when I spoke to the reporter, maybe I should have used my special pretend name so as to hide my secret 'bat' identity. You self destructive, ‘cut off your noses to spite every ones faces' morons.

How about just leaving the reeenactors to their own shows.
(I say appearing wise after the event).

I'm sure the space taken up by PaKs, SdKs and Supersize Ubermenschen would have provided a bit of welcome elbow room for the traders, participation games, and rendezvous points for old pals who meet up at shows.

Some have posted claiming that enacting/living history etc is a valid part of our hobby.
I disagree, and would hold as my first bit of evidence that there's no reenacting board among the large numbers on this site. (I'm ready to be corrrected but thought I might find a General ==> Reenacting board).

It's clear that there are people who enjoy both Wargaming and Reenacting. I'm sure a group of similar size could be found who enjoy both wargaming and football. It would be anachronistic to have a 5 a side tournament at one end of the exhibition hall – Even if the teams dressed in British and German 1914-15 uniforms and claimed to be re-enacting the Christmas camaraderie.

So I'd be happy if I never met another reenactment group at another wargames show.
On the other hand, I'll be the first to chip in and buy a round for any ECW buddies who fancy a draught at a county show where they are putting on a display.
Each to its own, and good luck to those who enjoy both.

As my traditional off-topic ending, I'll observe that the presence of the SS has really cut down on posts compaining about body odour.
Perhaps that's the solution for anybody suffering a similar social affliction.
Remain withing a few yards of a Nazi and you'll never be the primary offender.

Nickname

Nick from the Saxon "eke", "use"

These are our usernames on TMP. If there are five John Treadaways on TMP then how do you distinguish them all.

By a number or a nickname, same as you might get, in Welsh Steroetype, Jones the post, Jones the milk, Jones the bread or what have you.

The use of nicknames has a history of thousands of years, the Romans used it (cognomen if I understand it) even.

To say "Well, at least whatever you think of me, you are using a forum username that isn't your given name is silly

At least John was brave enough to put his head above the parapet on a personal level and try to answer some of the comments.

Must be standing on a box – he still hasn't got the sense to stop digging.

For the love of God, folks, let's give this thread a decent burial and move on.

Henry
Battlegames

I have to say, I agree with JT that whoever has been talking to the papers is absolutely not helping the situation.

Having the ersatz SS show up might be construed as having been a bit ill-considered on the public relations front.

But that's not quite in the same league as trying to make sure that there's a public relations problem by any means necessary.

What are they thinking; "Cor! That could look bad for everyone concerned if the tabloids find out. I know! I'll make sure it does…" ?

Well for me that's it. I love Salute. I look forward to it for months. It's a very well run event. But the constant wriggling of Mr Treadaway on post after post has done it and above all the laughable attack on people not using there real names "grow up" ??

I will not be attending Salute again.

Oh dear, this just keeps on rolling ;-[

reported to the Jewish Chronicle, did the thought not cross your mind John that the person who reported the show was Jewish?
They would have found the re-enactment group very offensive. As it stands if this is the only bad press the show gets, then thats a good result for the hobby.

Lets hope that the Salute committee walk away from this, having learnt some valuable lessons, and can still continue to put on Salute, I thiunk the last thing everyone wants is to see the show disappear.

John, I do hope you don't lose your job over this BTW.

Nigel H

What were these guys re-enacting? The Malmedy massacre perhaps? No. How about the destruction of Lidice? Not that either. How about rounding up unarmed civilians and shipping them off to death camps?

The existence of the SS and their Waffen brethren are a historical reality but better to ignore them than to discuss them in the same breath as REAL soldiers. These people were not soldiers, merely idealogicaly-motivated thugs and murderers, even among their own people.

"reported to the Jewish Chronicle, did the thought not cross your mind John that the person who reported the show was Jewish?"

VillageIdiot – A Good Point, Well Made!

John T –

"Does anyone understand the stress that this causes to the committee trying to run a wargames show?"

Sorry John, much as I have (and hopefully will continue) to appreciate yours and the Committees efforts over many years, those who supported the inclusion of SBG caused the stress for themselves in this instance!

Warpainter = my fairly well known name in the 15mm painted figure market. Otherwise I'm known as Lea :o)

Isn't it about time John is given a break guys?

He has stated that he had no idea that the 'extras' would be coming along with this group. He put a stop to the offending items for sale as soon as he became aware. And I assume he thought there would just be a historical military presence from the group, who else would think otherwise!?

Had things gone to John's intended plans I doubt there would be anywhere near as much fuss as this. A lot of you said you had no problem with the battlefied type uniforms.

So maybe 'we' should ban everything related to the Nazis from future events??? No SS books, figures, swatika emblems and why not include ANYTHING to do with the Nazis such as all Heer troop types too! After all it is recent history that can shock so many so lets get consistant with all these arguments. We don't want to have a situation where someone is walking past a table of the battle of Kursk and is so upset to see a couple SS Tiger tanks that they have to leave the show.

The above situation may well become reality. Think I am joking? Next we will have someone sueing for having seen something Nazi that upset them. I am sure most of you are familiar with far more absurd examples than this out there in the rest of the world.

As for the idiot that called the newpapers etc… there's always someone who gets off on cheaply being the cause of a bit of anarchy, just like the saddos who start fires. Would this have happened had there been just restrained intellegent discussion? I doubt it. He was egged on by many here and now it looks like you may lose Salute.

John, you need to get away for a couple days mate. No phone calls with the club members or anything to do with all this, just dissapear and clear your mind. I live in Swanage, if you want to pop down here and have a couple beers you're quite welcome to stay over. (And for the rest of you, I don't know John or have ever met him but am willing to offer my support).

My name is Richard Milner. I didn't visit Salute this year because I was busy.

There is a clear difference between German WW2 tanks on a game board and live action SS troops. The reaction from TMP members shows that. I don't believe it's untypical of the general public.

The person who called the papers has a right to do so, just as the SS re-enactors have a right to dress up like that. (It would be illegal in Germany, due to laws on displaying Nazi regalis.) At the risk of cliche, my grandfather and many others fought to preserve those rights. Even so, a tabletop wargames show is perhaps not the place to allow these rights to be exercised, or to stimulate debate about such topics.

With hindsight, it was obviously a bad PR mistake to have these people at the show. But South London Warlords are not a global corporation and can't be held to the same standards of PR skill. They should not be blamed, especially as individuals, for the fallout that has resulted.

Unless you think that the show committee are closet Nazi sympathisers, the whole subject should be dropped now. Enough damage has been done. There's talk of the whole show being canned next year, which would be a disaster. We need a bit of tolerance and forgiveness here.

I have to admit that I am in the Warpainter camp on this issue (which you might have guessed from my previous post). Too many people have over-reacted over this issue and I think that many people need to take a step back from the vilification issue.

While this re-enactment group is not my style in any way shape or form, I believe that they have a valid reason for perfoming as they do. It reminds us of the clinical usage of people that was decreed by the National Socialist Regime.

As an addendum, as a freaky sandal wearing happy clappy Christian, am I supposed to fight the onslaught of big business that use Anti-Christian subliminal messages or am I supposed to accept it? Because, based on the Pavlovian interjections of many users of this forum, I assume that if it conforms to current opinion then I should accept it. But if my faith is in conflict then either I accept the comments being produced should be accepted in toto and keep my mouth shut or that I carry out the same tasks that Mathhew, Barnabas, Thomas, John, etc and make loud the noise that the disciples made about the injustice of their time.

I am aware that my comments are of a different thread and will be addressed as such, (Watching out for the quotation pickers as I type!) I feel that while we may villify our brothers (in SBG) many will recognise a very close link to our comrades that game in 20/25/48mm/1:1 and will feel very uncomfortable about the comparisons.

enough said. Time to start with Salute 2008 (if there still is going to be one?)

Well, I think the chest beating on both sides here is quite inappropriate, given the majority are getting incensed without actually being personally affected.

I mean my grandad died in a concentration camp but I think these things are best dealt with personally, not as a public argument so people can fuel their own self righteousness.

I must say all this chest beating is inappropriate. Lots of people with no stake in the matter using a simple issue of idiocy and poor taste as a platform for self righteousness.

My grandad died in a concentration camp but you don't see me raising a hoo-ha.

Hope nobody minds, but I just wanted to make the 300th post on this thread.

Ciolcool1007: "I believe that they have a valid reason for perfoming as they do."

I'm sorry, but I find it hard to accept that there is any *valid* reason for reeneacting one of the most vile and detested units in WW2, that is likely to offend many people and stir up controversy wherever it goes.