"Just back from Salute..." Topic

For some reason, what I'm trying to post is stuck between pages. Let's try this again.

Allen

(Still trying to get this through; not sure where it's going.)

Well, as I've said before, as an American, I've traveled to the UK for several Salutes, and enjoyed every one. And I've seen--up close and personal--the assistance provided by the Warlords volunteers to move traders and exhibitors in and out of their venues, and I admire them for that, and for their organizational skills in general.

But how would you feel if you had incurred the expense of trans-Atlantic travel to attend the show, and found something so abhorrent that you and your family could not possibly stay? That's exactly what would have happened to us this year, if we had attended as planned. I didn't have to be there to see what this was about. On examination, the Warlords' Salute Web site did include a link to the Second Battle Group Web site, so it was easy enough to see their focus.

I am relieved to see how many fellow Americans, as well as a similarly overwhelming number of Britons (and likewise those from Canada, the Netherlands, and elsewhere) understand why this group was not a fit exhibitor at a wargames show. Waffle all you like: the SS was a personification of evil. Not fantasy, Mordor orc evil; not cartoonish GW evil: real human evil. I'm sorry there are a few who do not understand. I am grateful to know that there are so many wargamers who remember those who died to defeat that evil. I really do wonder what Don Featherstone--with whom I had a lovely day at a wargames show at Fort Leavenworth once--thought of the displays.

I have already said that my personal actions will make no significant difference--except to me. I appreciate very much those traders who have spoken up. If I am myopic in my viewpoint, fine. At least I can see well enough to realize that there are other fine British wargames shows to travel over to: ones whose organizers (to my certain knowledge) display better sense and attention to detail.

Allen

"A similar question could be asked as to why are the Southern States so popular with ACW gamers (and reenactors)."

Treadway, you really are a fatuous . I don't care about getting doghoused.

Pull the cliches from your insipid spin control posts and there is nothing left to them.

.

Fatuous was followed by .

The final word was .

Fortunately, "" came out as intended.

Kirishima you seem to have missed the point. yes of course every country on this planet has had shameful periods in history and you end by saying 'war is hell its all history'….however the nazi ideology is NOT history it is still with us today with most western countries having some kind of neo nazi element. my main problem with this reenactment society was not the dressing up as SS, although that in itself was sad and depressing, it was the glorification of the whole nazi culture and the selling of nazi merchandise.

The stupidity of the organizing committee just amazes me. if you allow a group like this at an event such as salute then you HAVE to put it into some kind of historical context with depictions of what the SS did and why its not cool to dress up and act like a nazi goon. any look at the groups website would surely have been enough to say NO and maybe just maybe they could have asked other reenactment societies what they thought as i have read elsewhere that other ww2 reenactment groups give these idiots a wide birth due to there alleged political beliefs. to be honest i dont even know why i wrote alleged as any moron who dresses up as a nazi and sells nazi merchandise isnt exactlly going to be a sandal wearing guardian reader.

PeteUK – "Seeing people dress their kids up like any kind of fashion accessory makes me hate humanity at the best of times, and putting a Hitler vibe on them just beggars belief."

Completely agree. The worst I ever saw was an infant with tattoos from ankles to wrists to neck, looking just like the visibly filthy and frankly stinking parents.

Tueart – I hope I havn't missed the point. And do I agree with you.
I've stated that I think the choice to have people pretending to be SS at salute was a poor one, as you point out the imagery is too well known.

With my last post I was attempting to counter some of the posts that the SS were the most evil military formation in history. There are plenty of examples of evil behaviour on horrific scale and you can bet that a lot has been covered up by the haze of time (history is written by the winners).
Just want a little historical perspective :-)

Re-enactors
Were they making some kind of political or social statement,I don't think so, we usually find some of these people sad, WWI The evil Kaiser, murdering Belgian babies, Romans slaughtering and enslaving whole nations. I was more disturbed at seeing a vision of the dark side, Star Wars Imperial stormtroopers, now that is scary "I thought they didn't exist."

Just wait til it hits the SUN newspaper when they need a 1/4 page filler !!!!

Til then its all done and dusted – have a feeling the Warlord guys will not be inviting them back quick :-)

I would like to add the following caveat's:

1. This years Nazi gaffe, was just that a gaffe!

2. It should and hopefully will not be repeated next or any other year.

3. Storm troopers, Daleks and the others are fictional, and add to the general fun atmosphere, which is a good thing.

4. As for the Romans and the Boer war etc. These events are NOT in living memory, and are not likely to ruin the name of the event.

5. To do with point 4, the total non-combat slayings of the Romans, Alexander the Great and the Mongol hordes were but a drop in the ocean (this does not excuse them from our viewpoint) but they were not carried out in such a focused, callous, or with such lethal efficiency as the Nazi SS.

6. The Nazi regime was true evil, any vampire, zombie or werewolf would have fled in fear from these true monsters. And that is the most terrifying thing about it all, they were once normal (and I use this word loosely) people.

7. I hope this sad tale gets no further, and I hope that the saddo who contacted the Current Bun, feels rather low at this time!

8. The show otherwise was very, very good, and I will for one be going next year as long as the mistake of this year is not repeated.

9. I think we have all made our point now.

Thanks for reading

Agent Smith

If it is indeed true that the story has been passed on the the Sun by a wargamer, I'd like to know by whom? That person would be much more culpable, than those who made the initial error of inviting the SBG in first place.

One of the major risks of this whole sorry escapade was the media getting hold of it, and destroying our hobby's image even more than the normally "geeky" overtones we already have. And now we hear that one of our own might have let this happen …

No, I wasn't there, and no, I'm not even British. But Salute is such a major event in the wargaming world internationally, that any fallout could affect the hobby as a whole.

I only hope that the story of a wargamer telling the media turns out to be just a silly rumour.

On balance I'm glad I couldn't go to Salute this year. I was planning to (and to bring my girlfriend for the first time). A good impression would not have been created of the hobby.

Inviting SS reenactors was a big faux pas in my opinion, especially at that venue on that weekend. At previous venues maybe (just) it could be got away with as only other gamers would be there, but at Excel on the weekend of the London Marathon when several thousand people from all over the world would be passing through the building. Not only poor taste but also shows the hobby in a bad light to the unitiated.

Agent Smith wrote:
4. As for the Romans and the Boer war etc. These events are NOT in living memory, and are not likely to ruin the name of the event.

5. To do with point 4, the total non-combat slayings of the Romans, Alexander the Great and the Mongol hordes were but a drop in the ocean (this does not excuse them from our viewpoint) but they were not carried out in such a focused, callous, or with such lethal efficiency as the Nazi SS.

Agent Smith – I think you need to read up on your history mate. The Mogols killed millions across China and the Middle East, when you take into account the much smaller human populations of the times then what they did was probably worse than the SS. Of Course it wasn't Europeans they were killing so I guess it's not as important.

Salute was excellent this year, but the decision to deploy the SS was an extremely poor call.

Despite their presence, I had a great day and it certainly hasn't put me off attending next year (as long as the nazis aren't coming back, which I'm sure they won't be!).

I wish I'd had more time to see the games. The Aztec terrain, in particular, looked truly remarkable; a work of art.

Simon

"Were they making some kind of political or social statement,I don't think so"

The point a lot of us are trying, and seemingly failing, to make is that they may *not* have been trying to make a political or social statement *but* to any casual passer-by it would be likely to *appear* that they were. It's the perception that counts here, given that we don't (I assume) want the general public to view our hobby as being a haven for fascists and similar ne'er-do-wells.

By allowing people to prance around wearing Nazi regalia at our events runs the risk of the general public assuming that we condone the actions of the Nazis, if indeed they don't, as a result, assume that we actually *are* Nazis.

"…statistically, the two most murderous regimes in history have been the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China…"

Erm, no. In pure numbers then yes, but they did have more people to work with and more time. Which is where we get towards the 'statistics' bit and that reveals that PROPORTIONALLY the biggest bloodletting of the Twentieth Century was the Imperial Germans in SW Africa. See here link scroll down to the section entitled Proportionality.

Point of Information;
'Tomorrow Belongs to Me' was written by John Kander and Fred Ebb for the original stage show of Cabaret (along with all the others) and is not, despite what many people think, a gen-u-wine Nazi recruiting song. Just one written in a German Romantic/Nationalist movement style by the two Jewish songwriters who came up with musical.

I had not thought to enter this debate but – I remember my brother raising the question in 1968/69 in Military Modelling – why were there and are there so many books glorying in this aspect of 20th C history? and if I recall correctly being shouted down at the time – it seems things have moved on but I suppose it is a debate that for the present has got to be settled in every generation.

But if it must be debated at least do it in a balanced manner – it is a matter for carefully curated exhibitions and for books and articles not for abhorrent grandstanding stunts such as that reported. I concur with the view that the exhibit at Salute has done our hobby at the very least a grave dis-service.

Regards
Graham

Given the amount of post this topic has raised they if nothing have got everyone thinking,particulalry how we are seen in the big wide world.
I was at Salute and saw them,did not go to near their stand other than in passing,so cannot comment on what they were selling, as with other though it was seriously over the top,but I also felt a considerable unease at seeing SS uniforms in my peripheral vision, even apprehenisve,god only knows what the people of occupied Europe must have felt on a day to day with them in thier peripheral vision.

I haven't chipped in on this since waaaaay back on page 1 so I thought I'd have another go :-)

For the record…

Salute IS a great show and I had a really good day out. It's a shame that a lot of that message is getting lost [understandably] in people's disgust at the SS issue. Yes, the Warlords screwed up on the re-enactor decision but I'd guess it's VERY unlikely to happen again!

The morality of dressing up as SS vs. playing with painted SS troops [or insert your favourite homicidal fascist organisation here] is complex and we can/will spend years debating it…thankfully I don't do either although I do have Spanish Civil War Nationalists who weren't the nicest of people so who am I to talk!

For me there were a couple of key issues…

Most people seem to have expressed the view that dressing up as SS is pretty heinous but having children also dressed up makes it 100 times worse. I can only agree. I'd hate to think what their school diaries say they got up to atthe weekend!!

The other big issue for me is that Salute is the highest profile wargaming event of the year [probably]. I'd have loved to have seen a feature in the press afterwards, especially in light of Harry Pearson's book. Salute would make an ideal feature in one of the Sundays…now I'm praying no one writes an article based on this year's event.

I don't think anyone needs to boycott/resign/be publicly executed over the matter…an acknowledgement [without too much spin please] that this was an error of judgement and won't happen again would be fine by me.

Nothing new to add really but what the heck – I really enjoyed Salute but like everyone else I was offended by the Nazi's – especially the Hitler Youth kids – that was pretty sick.

I enjoyed Salute, despite a crippling hangover. I wasn't overly concerned about the Nazi's but hadn't spotted the merchandise – that's wrong. The only people I met at the show who really liked the stand have political views not too far away from the SS…

Is it me, or is there a hint of "*beep* you, we're Salute, we'll have whoever we damn well please" about it?

Salute was great great great!
I agree with the Hitlerjungend beiing a wee bit over the borderline. These kids would foind it difficult to separate "play" and reality…
It would have helped and beeing "politicaly" astute to bring reenactors of another army (soviets would have been nice as people almost never see anything bad in them openly!).
reenacting recent event might always bring bad PR (you may always offend someone e.g a nam reenactor can bring bad memories to the neighbouring vietnamese restaurant?
If things are done in a tongue in cheek manner yet accurately (and these 1:1 scale nazi figures were well done even a SD222 one to one scale!) there should not be any problem.I did not talk to them or got really close to know.
Why should these not be one to one scale and be ok at 1/72nd???
In fact they made me laugh a bit: their signpost for Carpiquet (aifield near caen) was misspelled capriquet…
selling songs why not mugs with the madman on them humm that was neither clever nor good taste.
So for you organisers next time get other armies in and it will pass well.

Let's see, 222 posts of which a casual scan seems to suggest that about 90% + believe the hosting of the re-enactors was a foolish move, insensitive or in poor taste.

Given this forum exists largely for wargamers, presumably the target market of events like Salute, it appears the organisers have managed to dismay, annoy or offend a majority. Seems to me that an apology would be good politics, leaving aside any issues of the morality or common sense of the original decision. Might I suggest a fulsome apology on forums such as this would be your best option should the matter receiver a wider airing in the press.

"…statistically, the two most murderous regimes in history have been the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China…"

Erm, no. In pure numbers then yes,"

So yes the USSR and the PRC are the two most murderous regimes in history… Socialists have killed more people than any other ideology in history.

Anyhow people who dress up as NAZI's are neo-NAZI's and/or have serious sexual problems; no matter what they say.

On the other hand they have the absolute right to get off dressing up as double size super men, women and children and selling their AH fun memorabilia.

But not at Salute, bad, bad , bad PR disaster

Had time to think about this from the pov of a reenactor and gamer (I think you'd be surprised just what proportion of reenactors are also gamers).

Linking the two hobbies – well, like it or not, there is a link. It's the Military History, stupid. Having said that I've got minimal interest in doing one of our reenactment gigs at a wargame show (though if John Treadaway needs some RKKA reenactors to balance it up next year I'm sure we can discuss something… ;o) ). I have seen wargames put on at reenactment & MV gigs in the past so the traffic isn't all one way.

Kids as HJ – I've not personally seen them, seen pictures though, we usually do different events to the SBG. It's not something I'd be comfortable with. Same as I wouldn't be comfortable with our group having kids dressed up as Pioneers. Interestingly, though, as RKKA we could arm 14 year olds and include them as soldiers (there is a direct reference for this in the unit we reenact). Is that any more acceptable? I don't know.

Merchandise – I know of several units who sell merchandise to help with running costs (that display will have been covered by the SBG's PLI and as I imagine that cover goes to at least £5million it won't come cheap) the WW2 Display Team springs to mind ww2.org.uk. We don't, but then we also don't have vehicles or big clunky pieces of kit with lots of parts that can hurt you. I do know, however, that if we did sell anything it wouldn't have Uncle Joe's picture on it.

"So yes the USSR and the PRC are the two most murderous regimes in history… Socialists have killed more people than any other ideology in history."

You appear to confuse 'Statistical' and 'Numerical'. Are the Hutus less murderous because there were less Tutsi's in the world than there were Russians or Chinese?

I don't think so, do you?

Anyway that's way off the topic, though I accept I carried it on, it just grips my that you cannot discuss a murderous regime without someone going 'But Miss, Miss he was worser!' as if that makes it all OK.

Okay, I've kept my mouth (keyboard) shut for a couple of days now. As some of you can probably work out, helping a group of people to organise a show of the size of Salute doesn't just start at 10 on Saturday and end at 5 the same day and we've been doing a lot of ‘unpacking' and stuff. We are also swapping emails and intend to meet tonight to give the world a Warlords Committee response to all of the ‘Nazis at Salute bit'. I know the web is instant (and so ‘valuable' because of it !) but real democracy and decision making takes time and the committee will meet tonight and give a formal response to all of this.

So – to emphasise – this isn't it: This is NOT the response of the organisation of which I'm a member, not is it the Committee's response (especially as – despite being a member of that too – I don't even get a vote!). This is my PERSONAL response to some of the personal stuff that's been thrown at me on this forum in the past few days. So bear that in mind. Don't tar the Warlords with my brush.

Personal Point number one: learn to divorce the man from the organisation. I am not the Warlords.

Personal Point two: How many of the people that have been critical of me personally via this anonymous medium have the stones to actually come out from behind their silly name? Certainly not "nvrsaynvr", or "Rougue Farie" (whose literary credits include not being able to stop swearing in an email and "not caring if he's doghoused" and not being able to copy type the correct spelling of my name even when it's written on the screen in front of him. A good start).

I'm not being funny but I have no real interest in addressing any points made by people who don't know me, have never met me and who wont own up to saying who they are… Here's an idea: give me your name when you post, or email me directly so I can have your email address and we can talk about this like civilised human beings and not children.

Personal Point number three: "Hucheon" – I wasn't saying that the only reason that the reenactors were invited was to "invite debate" and what I said was not – and is not – ‘spin'. Well, not in my opinion anyway. With the invective stripped away, I personally (note use of word ‘personally' here again, folks) think that the debate has been very valuable. I think reasoned debate is almost always valuable. It's all down to whether one is prepared to pay the price for it and – like many (perhaps all) worthwhile things in life – it don't come free. This debate has been paid for in all sorts of ways.

Personal Point four: I have spent my life preaching to people that you should judge people by their actions not by what they wear. As a fella who's spent the last thirty years of my life in a bike jacket (with the hair and general appearance to match) I've been judged harshly on what I wear and how I look just too darned often. As a wargamer in general I am usually judged poorly as well (as we all are: "play with toy soldiers, do ya?" etc etc). A double whammy for me then. Having seen the SBG at Detling, and known one of them personally a couple of years back (and one of the nicest men you could want to meet) I was not prepared to judge them on appearance and – though we tried to get other allied groups along to balance things (and almost entirely failed miserably [we had some people from the Firepower Museum at Woolwich dressed in WW2 British gear – male and female – who have confirmed in an email how pleased they were with the show]) I thought we should go ahead with the SBG display anyway and supported the majority committee decision to do so.

Personal Point five: I now realise it was a PR disaster. I'm not stupid. Yes "Arteis" the Sun did call me and "the story of a wargamer telling the media" sadly is not "just a silly rumour". That's just how stupid some people are, I'm afraid. How to compound one error with another… But – to quote Blackadder "If stupidity were a crime, Nursey would have been in prison all her life". We've all done stupid things, me included.

Personal Point number six: At one point, whoever "nvrsaynvr" is said: "This wasn't a bad idea in retrospect. It was a bad idea from the get go. I hope the next thing we hear from Mr. Treadaway is his apologetic resignation." I asked afterwards "my resignation from what" and still haven't had a reply. I assume he means from the Warlords or their committee (as opposed to the human race in general) but he probably needs to think that one through. Salute is run by a dedicated group of wargamers for the fun of it and at considerable risk to themselves (the amount of committee work involved has broken more than one marriage at the Club). I don't want thanks for that or even recognition (on my personal behalf or any of the members of the Club) – just some understanding and common sense. If any of us resign, we're all going: we are all jointly responsible for the decisions we‘ve made, good ones and bad ones. What you all get then, geniuses, is what the pin-head who rang the Sun (seemingly) wanted: no Salute. Presumably to ‘punish' the Warlords on some level. So…

Personal Point number seven (and my last): please punish me. I've been actively involved in running what has become the biggest one day (no GW) even if it's kind going for 25 years. If the entire committee resigns (a very real probability at this rate) what you'll all get is NO Salute at all. If you want that, my suggestion is that you all, personally write to the Sun. They ignored what one person did. They probably wont ignore thirty or forty people (even if some of the complainers weren't actually there the Sun probably don't care that much…). Then we can all resign, someone else can run the biggest show in the country, and I can get some spere time to play wargames.

The reality was that – on the face of it – inviting some WW2 groups (note the plural) along didn't work out like we'd intended. We made a mistake and I was a part of that decision making. Take your best shot, by all means, criticise that decision; please do. But to cut off your collective noses to spite your collective faces is something you do at your own peril because (to mix my own metaphors) you're poo'ing on your own doorsteps.

On any level, the choice that was made that (which, as I said above, was one I was collectively involved with) was one I shall regret, simply because of the offence it caused so many people. I personally didn't find it offensive but then I didn't see the kids in the outfits till the afternoon… And as soon as we were informed of the selling of the merchandise we asked them to stop. And they did.

So leaving the personal attacks on me aside, I'd just say this: Salute is a unique thing for Wargamers and Wargames Traders. If you think we've put that in jeopardy with a bad decision, I agree with you, so please read on.

At Salute we have the space to do different things that – in wargames terms – no one else does. Over the last 25 years I for one (and many Club members agree with me, but this is still a PERSONAL VIEW) have been determined to try new ideas out but – sometimes – we'll make a bad judgement call and/or get caught on the hop. If we didn't take risks, we'd still be running Salute in a bar room over the Surry Tavern where it started 35 years ago…

If you want another example of us screwing up, think of the door situation (and the lift only access) the first year we moved to Olympia in 2000 as a fantastically bad call. We had to move out of Kensington and we had to go somewhere bigger. We chose Olympia and made a very tough decision and took a big financial risk (and lost money in the process). We took a lot of ‘flack' for that door problem in 2000 – and rightly so – but we said we'd fix it the following year. And we did. That's what the Warlords does: takes risks, listens to criticism and learns by it's mistakes

Secondly, remember we are fallible wargamers just like yourselves. Not a big company with shareholders. Like I said above, the only losers when people call the Sun to ‘report us' is us wargamers. All of us.

My final PERSONAL PLEA: Trust us – as people have in the past. We will make mistakes but we will not make the same mistakes twice. Forgive but don't forget, eh?

See you at Salute Zero Eight.

John T

Thanks for that Mr Treadaway.

Unlike some on here, I do use my real name – I don't hide behind a pseudonym. If I'm going to tell someone that they've ed up, I prefer that they know it's *me* saying it and not 'Jimmy Snufflupagus' – and I'll cheerfully take whatever flak gets chucked back at me. Yes, I up too.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to explain your personal view on this, and sorry if my (bleeped) invective offended – I was good and mad! I look forward to hearing the Warlords' committee's view on the affair.

A good response John. Personal attacks are uncalled for as are the "I'll never darken your door again" comments. Having attended Salute virtually every year since 1986 (I think this was only the 3rd or 4th time I've not gone as finances sadly didn't allow)I've seen Salute go from strength to strength. I was there the first year at Olympia and had to put up with the nightmare lifts but as you said you put it right the following year (and if I remember correctly took even more of a financial gamble in the process by hiring more floor space).

You personally have realised the the level of negative PR this issue has generated and I'm sure your fellow warlords have too. As you have said one learns from one's mistakes. Although as I said in my ealier post that I was glad not to have attended this year, I hope that Salute continues as the premiere wargaming event in the UK and I hope I'll be able to attend next year.

Thanks Phil – I appreciate straightforwardness! And yep – been known to use the odd rude word myself in the past so I don't condemn out of hand!!

John

Looks like we've been bitten by the TMP bug.

Or I was. My post showed under your name John but now it's ok.?????????

I applaud you on your response to the heated debate, I can see it as a mistake and hope to god (which I stated in my posts) that the papers have more news worthy items as it "could" be misused or mis-interpreted.

This debate has raged long enough, and has made its point. Personally, I'm as appalled at some of the personal invective directed at JT as I was at the gaffe of certain aspects of the SS display at the show.

As a hobby, we have got to do more than heap blame on an individual to recover from this situation. We have got to think hard about the face we wish to show the outside world if we want our hobby to grow and thrive in the future. Mud-slinging will get us nowhere along that road.

Salute is the flagship event of the UK hobby, where gamers from across the UK, Europe and beyond come together in the hope of finding all that's best about the hobby here. I suggest, therefore, that we turn our attention to working together constructively -- gamers, traders, show organisers -- to deliver exactly that for next year.

Henry
Battlegames

thank you john for standing up on this forum and taking the flak…it takes guts.

however your posts fall way short of an outright apology to the overwhelming majority who were offended by the SBG. I have two questions.

1. why was not more research done into the SBG and were they payed for attending.
2. are you not aware that SS reenactors are at the very least going to be on the fringes of far right politics and so not appropriate for any public event ANYWHERE?

on a side note you seem to be happy to throw scorn on the 'pinhead' who phoned the sun but id like to point out that it wasnt he/she who fd up.

'Tueart'

The Committee will make a statement re apologies very soon.

The 'pinhead' comment is valid: we screwed up: he compounded the problem. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Email me directly if you want to take this further.

John

Henry (battlegames)

Many thanks for the comment. Some people just aren't going to give up though, are they?

I will not be answering an more comments on this 'forum'. As I said to whoever 'Tueart' is (abaove) email me directly and I'll certainly continue with any new points but I think I've said all I can say on a personal level. The rest os up to a committee statement from the Club.

John

I will not be answering an more comments on this 'forum'.

Why the quotes, John?

I WENT TO THE SHOW SATURDAY AND TOOK MY THREE YOUNG BOYS AND MY NEPHEW…THEY ENJOYED THE SHOW BUT THE HIGHLIGHT FOR THEM WAS THE RE ENACTMENT. WE SPENT SOME CONSIDERABLE TIME TALKING TO THE PEOPLE DOING THE RE ENACTMENT AND FOUND THEM VERY INFORMATIVE AND FRIENDLY. MY GRANDPA FOUGHT IN WW11 AND I WAS IN NO WAY OFFENDED BY THE RE ENACTMENT.IT WAS GREAT FOR MY CHILDREN TO HAVE A CHANCE TO SEE THESE THING CLOSE UP.

THIS WAS MY FIRST EXPERIENCE OF WAR GAMING AND CERTAINLY NOT MY LAST.
Good Show see ya 2008

Divebomber

The point I was trying to make that it was NOT within living memory.

There are still people around, alive today who suffered at the hands of the SS and Japanese and the rest that we are generating today in Afghanistan & Iraq etc.

That doesn`t excuse these past events (at least in our viewpoint), but that means that Romans and Huns etc, do not excite the unease that most of the posters here felt Saturday, of which was otherwise a superb show.

I`m sorry if I wasn`t accurate enough for you Dive Bomber!

Apologies

Agent Smith

To John Treadaway:

The personal attacks on yourself are in no way justified and should not be allowed.

Although I have vented my distaste, about this issue that was about this issue only.

The show as a whole this year was much better (in fact it was superb) and please do not give up on the account of a few posters on here.

Everyone is allowed a balls-up every now and again, after all we are only human.

Keep up the good work

Agent Smith (AKA Glen Hayward)

Apology accepted Captain Needa (Agent Smith).
No scorn intended

Regards

Divebomber (I'm not going to say my real name as this is all turning into a bit of a diney-esque kiss and make up. Not that I disappove :-)

Thanks Glen (Agent Smith) I do appreciate what you've said. The same goes for all the other comments – especially the positive ones: constructive feedback is ALWAYS appreciated.

Bill (Editor) sorry about the quotes thing on 'forum'. I don't know why I did it, to be honest: I'm tired and – frankly – just numbed by some of the last few days. Please take it from me that no disrespect was intended.

I guess that – perhaps – it was a subconscious thing – what that says about my subconscious, though, is another thing entirely! I suppose I would just prefer the kind of forum where we all stand in the town square and debate (or shout at each other) but can see each other's faces and – while I accept other people's need to ensure their privacy – I'm occasionally appalled by the abuses it sometimes receives.

I stand by what I do and what I say – I spent 11 years writing a column for Practical Wargamer and my name goes on whatever I write. I make mistakes. I sometimes do and say the wrong things. But I don't do it clandestinely. I put my name to it. I turn up at a big show (lots of big shows up and down the country, in fact) and take my whacks (come and see me next years at Salute: I'll be busy – like I was on Saturday – but I still found time to talk). In short, people know who I am. I think that's the honorable thing to do.

I suppose that I feel that – for a forum to be taken seriously – it needs people on it who are not afraid to stand up and be counted so that they too can be taken seriously. Not everyone is like Henry Hyde at Battlegames, or Jed at Antenociti (and many others, it has to be said). I think if people want to get the most from any forum – indeed from their hobby – they should contribute more than just opinions and then stand up and be counted.

I urge all who use this forum to consider those twompoints as at least an option – if they want to be taken seriously, that is.

So Bill – no disrespect intended: just tiredness, sore feet and sore nerves I'm afraid!

John

John Treadaway wrote:

"Personal Point two: How many of the people that have been critical of me personally via this anonymous medium have the stones to actually come out from behind their silly name? Certainly not "nvrsaynvr", or "Rougue Farie" (whose literary credits include not being able to stop swearing in an email and "not caring if he's doghoused" and not being able to copy type the correct spelling of my name even when it's written on the screen in front of him. A good start)."

I've already identified myself…I am who I am:

Andrew Preziosi-Khyber Pass Games and Books and we have plenty of retailers in the UK and Europe.

I don't (and never have) hide behind other names online…those who know me will tell you I will look you straight in the eye and tell you exactly what I think…right, wrong, good, bad or otherwise.

Again, just to re-state my position…I was "troubled" by the presence of the SS soldiers, but that could have been balanced by the presence of other WWII types…allies, preferrably…but the HY and sales aspect was beyond the pale.

I also honestly would not give it a moments thought if I ever saw a "re-enactor" at a wargame convention.

And finally, as I said, in light of the IMUS situ over here (and here I agree with you)…real men should come out from behind cover and state their case…right, wrong, good, bad or otherwise.

I also feel it is incumbent on the DEALERS, if they are as upset as it seems or listen to THEIR customers, to vote with their wallets and let you know just what THEY will tolerate…money talks…right, wrong, good, bad or otherwise.

Andrew Preziosi…KPG

I went to Salute on Saturday with a number of club members, most of whom were going for the first time. All of us were disturbed, to say the least, by the prominence given to these reenactors.

Not only were they all other the show but going out for a cigarette and standing next to two guys dressed as members of one of the SS units most closely associated with the execution of POWs on the Western Front both in 1940 and in 1944 (let alone what they did on the Eastern Front but we don't care about that) was very weird.

I don't care whether they are really decent blokes or what they do as a hobby, I simply object to having what I do as a hobby associated with people strutting around with Nazi armbands or SS collar tabs. They can do that in the venues dedicated to their hobby. Not mine.

Maybe John Treadaway is right about the need for a debate about the fascination for the SS and maybe he is right about the need to avoid judging people according to what they wear. It was simply not the place, the time nor the way to raise either issues.

If Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler reenactors have a bad PR problem, they can deal with it on their own for all I care. I'll just do with explaining to people that my hobby is about grown men being kids again when they play with toy soldiers rather than some morbid fascination.

It wasn't enough to ruin Salute for me but I do hope the Warlords realise what a stupid idea this was and they appear to do so judging from the personal opinions some of them, including John Treadaway, have expressed here. The worse thing is that the Warlords are the main victims of this up because it does take away from all the hard work that went into organising Salute.

Crikey, I think it is a bit steep attacking people because they use a non de plume. This is standard across the whole internet for very good reasons (mainly security).

I do credit Mr Treadaway for getting involved in the debate and I will certainly not boycott Salute next year on the basis that they are intelligent people and will have learnt a lesson.

Time to move on and make next year's the best ever.

Stephen Harris

john

my name is ian clenton feel free to google me and see im a real person. i have no problem standing up and saying what is right and wrong. i was at salute and what happend on saturday was wrong. as i said in a previous post im not a wargamer and i have no wish to offend anyone on this forum as its not my hobby. however i have been involved in such groups as searchlight and anti nazi league in the past and so i do have some knowledge of groups that are involved in far right politics and you can bet 100% that groups such as the SBG are on watch lists of many anti nazi groups as well as the police. the simple, at best, naivety of inviteing a group such as the SBG to any public event is what gets me.

i apologise to any one on this site if you think that as someone outside of the hobby its not my place to comment but i believe this issue goes beyond those lines.

i hope for the sake of the hobby that this issue goes no further than being discussed in forums and best of luck for 2008.

Mr Editor,

I have tried emailing you about an unrelated issue, I had my previous account hacked, hence the mk2 version, could you please email me about this – I mention it here as your obviously following this topic. Thanks.
Azanti0029@yahoo.co.uk

Well, I bought a copy of "The Sun" it seems that the major news event is that the Queen is an Arsenal fan!!! The girl on page three had a nice rack, and the football match reviews were quite good!!

happily there was no mention of the SS at Excel,go9od news all round I say.

John Treadaway, thank you very much for the explanation, mistakes do happen, and as always. you have taken onboard what people have said,and have promised to learn from the experience.
I cannot see any valid reason why any of the Salute committee should be forced to stand down, or resign, putting on a show the size of Salute, is always going to be open to pitfalls and critiscm, you simply cannot please all of the people, all of the time.

I do have a forum name, I use the same name on all the forums I belong to, but I never hide behind it.

Nigel Higgins
Anglian Miniatures
(yes we do have some dodgy SCW Nationalist figures;-0)

Mr. Treadaway

I don't tend to think of "hurcheon" as a pseudonym as it is fairly well associated with me elsewhere.

To quote your own words
"Of course, we knew that the reenactors this year were going to be a controversial choice. We're not stupid or insensitive to peoples' feelings on the subject."

and
"Indeed some of our own members are very uneasy about the Second battle group's involvement. We do understand. What we hope is that it will cause discussion within the hobby about topics and themes for gaming and re-enacting and that we will all gain something from that debate and discussion."

From those words perhaps you can see why people have the impression that there was almost an intend to cause a storm over this one.

Colin D. Speirs
aka hurcheon or Ar-Pharazon