"Just back from Salute..." Topic

Blimey. My only thought was to wonder if the German army had actually made that much pea dot during the war…

I wouldn't worry about J. Public -- they can't tell one uniform from another[1] and if they were going to recognise wierdnesses happening, it would be the daleks wandering about that would count.

I did wonder what some of the mainland Europeans at the show would think of it all though… it might be better to avoid the "within living memory" eras for that sort of thing.

[1] The other half (for example) who could, should he wish, wander over and leaf through the uniform guides still had to be told they were supposed to be SS -- I mentioned just now there was a controversy over them being there and he said "Why, were they not very good or something?" Ahhh. Bless.

Re-enactors and wargamers are one in the same!

Historical re-enactors=Love of history, understanding of style, color and use of historical equipment, indepth portrayal of military uniforms and insignias, intense attention to detail and a fascination with the use and quality of period weaponry.

Wargamers/collector's=Love of history, understanding of style, color and use of historical equipment, indepth portrayal of military uniforms and insignias, intense attention to detail and a fascination with the use and quality of period weaponry.

A big to do about nothing. I am sure it was an excellent event with lots to see and get excited about.

Don't understand the need to expound your disgust and hatred for the Nazis. We all understand they were mean and nasty boys. We also understand you aren't a mean and nasty boy. Please…

Let us not be shortsighted and small minded here. These people have a strong connection to our hobby.

Do any people here game WW2 and us the SS because if you do you are being rather hypocritical and you should not play the SS or purchase your Romans from companies that produce SS, right.

Because Roman's were sympathetic and fair-minded killers while the SS did it for the pure enjoyment.

This is true madness.

Like I said, if you guys get your way-banning and censoring all Nazi uniforms, insignias and propaganda, (which is what you want in the end I am sure.)in the end the Nazi's will win as their evil spirit will rise from obscurity you created to take hold of civilization once again.

A very dangerous bunch you are.

I am sure there are many more people that didn't get insulted and just went on about their business.

I am sure they are lurking for fear of being dragged into the witchhunt.

Sad…

I wonder how many of you who were so "offended" (which means what, exactly?) by the presence of the SS re-enactors were actually so geniunely offended on the day itself that you said anything to them or one of the organisers? From the posts here I would bet not. In that respect CombatPainter is right to deride you as cowards. TMP has a tendecy to degenerate in this kind of discussion into a on-up-manship contest where folk fall over each other to parade their own (self)righteousness. Claiming also, as some have done, that your outrage is even more especially valid because you have a second cousin twice removed who once went to a Bar Mitzvah is just moral .

I think the German Home Front display sounds interesting – something we would rarely get to see. I'm sure the uniforms would also have been interesting to a wargamer. The people doing it look daft becuase they are fat and old and, frankly, deserve our derision on aesthetic grounds more than political (and them actually being Nazis themselves is unproven – and unlikely – more like they are just getting hard over the "elite"ness of the SS, a common tendency among gamers and reenactors of all periods). I woldn;t buy a Hitler mug so that doesn't bother me either.

At first I thought this was bad PR move but actually, on reflection, I don't. Face it, no one really gives a about what happens at Salute except gamers. I bet no one in the big wide world even noticed.

I'm with Warpainter and CombatPainter on this one. TMPers are behavling like a bunch of weak sisters. Man up and grow up and stop parading your own lachrymose ethics. It's dull and predicatble. And as for boycotting all the traders who attended – unlike yourself, aecurtis, – that just makes you even more ridiculous that a fat Brit squeezing his tubby gut into pea-dot.

And a quick note to John Treadaway – you shouldn't offer half- hearted apologies for this. You should be giving these clowns the finger. It's your show, do what you want.

Not being very interested in WW2, I didn't pay these people anything more than a cursory glance until I noticed the children wandering about. Without wishing to sound like Arsene Venger, I didn't notice them selling merchandise. That said, as a parent, I found the "junior section" very creepy and disturbing and so did both of the other parent/wargamers I asked. At the end of the show, one of the "wunderkind" started playing a tune on the trumpet that I'm pretty sure was from the closing scene of "Cabaret" – I recall waiting to see if they would burst into a rousing chorus of "Tomorrow belongs to me" for good measure.

The most obvious comments about PR mistake have already been made. To these I would only add that at least a few of the senior Warlords must be old enough to recall the infamous November 1974 issue of "Military Modelling" which featured a standard bearer of LAH on its front cover, and the outrage it caused particularly amongst its European readers. The Warlords should remember that many people come over from Europe to this show and that alone should have had alarm bells ringing. We were lucky enough not to have been visited by the SS; others were not. That said, I thought John Treadaway was (slightly) harshly treated – this group are legal in this country and as a "bona fide" re-enactment group were "fair game" to be invited to "Salute".

The real gripe over and above the implications for the image of wargaming, seems to be that the politics of the re-enactors are unacceptable. We are, unfortunately, conditioned to thinking in terms of "left wing good, right wing bad", yet statistically, the two most murderous regimes in history have been the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China – both socialist. Unfortunately for lovers of the Nazis, their boys persecuted – inter alia – gays and minorities and therefore ticked the wrong boxes (it's part of the indoctrination process that we have a "Holocaust Day" since historically, Jews have had an equally tough ride from the "caring" side of the political spectrum as well). It is hard to imagine a group of Soviet/Warsaw Pact re-enactors, or Chinese People's Army, generating the same reaction – yet they should (and of course, in some quarters, re-enactors in British and American uniforms WOULD generate such a response). Incidentally, I think two, or possibly even three, members of our present government (including the Home Secretary) are former members of the Communist Party of Great Britain, serial apologists for the atrocities of Stalin and his successors.

We are never going to get away from the fact that our hobby involves turning war into entertainment. Some of the public are going to hate us whatever; ing off the rest is probably not a good idea though. Learn from the mistake.

[ps: For the benefit of the hard of thinking/reading….
No, I do not support the Nazis or think they were "cool";
No, I do not think there were "good" SS; and
No, I do not support/campaign for/vote for/agree with the BNP.]

SS re-enacters ?! having read the above comments methinks the orginisers of Salute have made a grave mistake , lets hope the newspapers don't hear about it . Can you imagine the headlines in the Sun !!!!

Again on a historical note : since evrything seems to get more and more about the young people in HY uniforms. In the waryears you could onlu see youngsters dressed as this. If you did not become a partymember or send your kids to the Hitler Youth, you were considered as suspicious and potentially dangereous. Again try to see history in a historical timeframe and not with all the extra baggage of knowledge we have today.
Other possibility would have been to leave the kids at home…

Despite this controversy, Salute was a great show again this year. The Steve Dean forum has lots of photos of many of the games on display which indicate the variety and sheer quantity of top quality wargaming there. I've been a Salute regular since the early 90s, and various times before that, and watched the show grow from Ken Town Hall, via Olympia, to its current home at Excel. The Warlords are excellent ambassadors for the hobby – always friendly and outgoing, with great and diverse displays of their own, and welcoming to groups from across the gaming spectrum – and as many posters have said, Salute is *the* show in the UK wargaming calendar. This invitation was a bad lapse of taste on somebody's part, but hopefully won't colour everyones' views of the show or the organisers. I will certainly be back next year, but as I said above I hope future re-enactment activities are strictly military and avoid the tone of SBG's presentation this year.

On a lighter note, the SBG leaflet also pointed out that long hair and beards were prohibited for their members. Reading this, we speculated on the prospects for a Long Range Desert Group re-enactment society – in which long hair and beards would be compulsory. (Subsequent research confirms there is an LRDG group already, although without a facial hair policy.)

I was at Salute and enjoyed the show, the 1st hour or so was spent on just spending my cash, and boy was there a lot to spend it on (my credit card had an outing too).
I didn't even notice the SS until I took time to wander around, and suddenly noticed their jagged lightnings & there were certainly a lot of them. Their display was impressive and I noticed that they had mugs/CDs displayed but didn't realise that these were being sold.
I generally keep my distance from all re-enactors as they are a different type of geek to me. However, I was surprised that there were no allies to counter the strong SS presence, and did feel a little uneasy at this lack, and wondered how our European colleagues felt.
To their credit they did appear to have been willing to show how various bits of their kit & weaponry worked to the general public.
I just avoided the area that 2BG held as there was plenty of more attractive options to see elsewhere in the show.
Personally, I don't feel that re-enactors should be present at a wargames show, especially when they take up such a chunk of real estate (to the possible loss of traders or other games).

I spent most of the day on the Loughton Strike Force Waterloo demo.
I was so busy chatting to the dozens of gamers who were there doing what the majority were there to do i.e look at the wargaming stuff that I completely ignored the re-enactors. Just like I do at every show I attend.
Most of the gamers I know think anyone who dresses up, be it as a Roman, a Napoleonic soldier, a wookie a Dalek or a member of the Waffen SS have slipped a little too close towards "weird" on the normality spectrum.
So I wasnt offended by it all.I didnt give them a thought.
and I am a bit suprised that so many of you are so agitated by it.Why werent you looking at the true wargaming offerings instead?
I would guess that if any of the re-enactment crew are reading this thread they will feel immensely satisfied at the furore they have caused.
From my perspective letting these prats in to Salute was as pointless as those irritating Roman knobs last year who insisted on walking about the hall banging drums and shouting.But it didnt offend me as I didnt elevate it all to the point where it could.It was an irrelavance

First off I am not a wargamer and have never been to a wargame show before. I went along to salute yesterday as i have an interest in figure painting and thought it would be an interesting day out for me and my partner. I thought I would post a comment here after stumbling upon the site as I thought it might be of interest as its a view from someone who is not involved in the hobby.

After entering the hall the first thing that I noticed was the SS soldiers, ok fair enough i guessed there would be plenty of reenactors from all periods of history…but oh no just the SS were there. Just how stupid are the organizing commitee of salute? This was way beyond a group of grown men playing at soldiers as they were representing a way of life outside of a military structure. The kids dressed in SS uniforms was sick and the selling of Nazi merchandise was just beyond belief. There was no attempt to portray a balanced view, a simple board showing SS atrocities next to the group would have gone along way to dissolve criticim.

The whole thing left me wondering whether the organizing commitee were either sympathetic to right wing views or had all had frontal lobotomies. Just how hard would it have been to stop them selling the merchandise at 10.00am or tell them that the women and children dressed as SS was beyond the line of taste?

As for Mr Treadways comments that it was 'thought provoking'… it certainly was, my thoughts on the wargaming community as a whole were deeply tarnished by the event and simply reinforced some of the sterotypes that i had already. Im only glad that i found this forum and have seen that the general community also abhors this kind of thing.

So what funfest have the warlords got planned for next year… BNP and NF stands or a reanactment of Auschwitz, who knows but i certainlly wont be attending.

"Also, having worked as a trader at Salute for many years (thankfully not for the last two, so can attend as a punter) many of them probably didn't even realise they were there. It's a busy day and the only chance you get to leave the store is usually to quickly buy the bits you wanted to get and nip to the toilet."

I'm glad somebody mentioned this because this is the first I'd even heard about it and apparently on I'm now on at least one persons boycott list? I vaguely recall spotting an army reenactment in the distance and that's about it.

My other half will lob something at me for even replying to this topic but…

I'm not particularly offended sorry. If anyone wants to stop buying from us because of that then I'm sorry to lose your business but I'm not going to pretend to be offended at something. The hitler youth things certainly sounds a bit odd and not a choice I'd ever make for my kids and the hitler mugs seem a bit tacky but that's about it. I am a bit perturbed at the lack of foresight by only booking one reenactment company and it being the nazis but that's a PR problem rather than personal distaste.

I also find it rather odd that somebody in this long thread, sorry if I know you btw but I don't wanna go back and find the post, mentioned they met some while at a 'viking' reenactment? So the recent genocidal murderers are sick but the old school raping and pillaging murderers are just fine to reenact?

There have been many atrocities through history committed by many many groups of people and we reenact or game rather a lot of them. I don't think these people should be abused for choosing to do what they do, if you don't like them don't go to their shows or don't stop at their stands at places like Salute. Just walk past. By all means register your opinion with the organisers but let's cut down on screaming 'scum' at them considering just how popular german miniatures are in our industry.

Can we get a little perspective back please?

"At first I thought this was bad PR move but actually, on reflection, I don't. Face it, no one really gives a about what happens at Salute except gamers. I bet no one in the big wide world even noticed."

We may be surprised. I recall the organisers of colours copped a whole heap of flak for soemthing like this several years ago (peace protester pickets, orders from the council not to include any games involving Germans, etc.). If this _does_ end up with ExCel copping flak I wouldn't be surprised if they thought long and hard about whether thye wated the Warlords back next year.

Having said that they do run the DSEi exhibtion and that cops LOADS of flak each tiem its on so they probably wouldn't care :)

I have to agree with Artemis, drove the van into the hall at 8.40am, unloaded. dumped the van, unpacked, left the stand to go to the loo for 5 minutes, packed up at 5.30pm, got home at 7.40pm…

Didn't see anything of the show, didn't see any re-enactors, SS or otherwise.

Met a lot of interesting people, sold a lot stuff, went to bed early after a quick Thai meal…

Mike

"I am sure that when forty blokes and a donkey attempt to reenact Borodino in a field near Scunthorpe they don't have a wargames table set up in the middle of the whole event. Why, then, do we have them at a wargames show?"

I agree. I would be perfectly happy to continue attending shows and never see anyone in a costume or uniform of any kind. No SS, no Bobba Fatt, no Daleks and no ACW/ECW/Roman Legion or God forbid, Star Wars or Star Trek. There is a place for such things and wargames shows are not costume parties. These are public events that often get press coverage, why go out of our way to reinforce negative sterotypes?

"Re-enactors and wargamers are one in the same!

Historical re-enactors=Love of history, understanding of style, color and use of historical equipment, indepth portrayal of military uniforms and insignias, intense attention to detail and a fascination with the use and quality of period weaponry.

Wargamers/collector's=Love of history, understanding of style, color and use of historical equipment, indepth portrayal of military uniforms and insignias, intense attention to detail and a fascination with the use and quality of period weaponry."

.

Haha! Toofatlardies, gotcha! :) But I did make a good point.

Combat Painter,
99.9% of the posts on this site express disgust at SS re-enactors, but this doesn't line up with your own views.
So you go on and on to impose your views on us until we get sooooo bored we agree. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I think I now understand Americas 'oh so popular overseas policy'
I think, for once, I can speak for the majority,
WE DON'T LIKE THE SS RE-ENACTORS
get used to it, oh, HAHAHAHAHAHA got you, too.
Now, lets get on with the love, brother

How was Salute for me?
I will comment on the Re-inactment issue further down.
Salute 2007 – well here we go….
Well, I didn't get to see much of it working on our game all day and our sincerest thanks to all the players who gave it a go and to the young dude with the long hair who got best player of the day award (Or most nasty sniping shots) and thus got a copy of the special edition of A Bridge Too Far on DVD.
We didn't have a huge amount of time to playtest our game before hand and I felt some of the players who gave it a go on the second day (We did the three days of the battle) got a real raw deal, my apologies to them because we do after all, put these things on so you can play them and have a good time, and I don't think for that one segment of the day the game worked as well as it should. A quick umpire meeting with our team and some rule changes did correct all that very rapidly for the next batch – still you live and learn, it is hard to play test a game of such size and complexity at home, and we do not have a hall space to do so.
I had a quick scoot around the show on the way back from the toilets at one point and for the most part everything looked very impressive to me. There was much better signage than last year, all of the space was effectively used so there was no pushing and shoving in the aisles, except I suspect around the Bring and Buy which I had never got anywhere near, nor would I have had the time to do so.
I heard about the games on offer apart from ours rather than seeing them. There just wasn't really any time for me to do so but what I saw had a very high standard. I had a brief chat with the guys doing the Zulu battle which looked most impressive and unlike us they had no problems reaching all the way across their table, lol.

The re-inactment issue. I didn't need a crystal ball to know that this was going to be something of a huge hot potatoe on this and I dare say many other forums.

As I knew these guys had done much film work, and that relates to my other line of work I was certainly interested in seeing how accurate their kit was and what they had, and what events they normally did. I spoke to several and they seemed fairly ordinary and decent to me (Two them even had relatives that fought in the battle that we were portraying and on opposing sides, which was interesting to hear about) but and there is a big BUT,

Do I think they should have been wandering about with their weapons outsdide of the hall in the concourse, or even outside at one point? Absoulutely not.

Do I think we should have kids dressed up as Hitler Youth at the UK's main table top games convention when we have enough time trying to convince young new people coming into the hobby – Absolutely not.

I only noticed the latter when I saw them watching our game. (Around the same time the Warlords first noticed them as I understand)
Do I think people should be selling mugs with Hitlers face on the side of it – ABSOLUTELY NOT.

It is not so much that I would find it offensive personally, but of course I can understand why some people would and I think showing a degree of sensitivity towards what would have been an obvious reaction, would prehaps not have been a bad move on behalf of the Warlords.
Yes, it was nice to see kit, a balance of Allied kit would have been good too, if there could have been any Allied groups whom could have come to add some balance to the ocasion. My understanding is that other groups were invited but in the end couldn't make it and some pulled out at the last minute, so I suspect the intention was not to have such a Nazi like presence in the venue.
Like others have mentioned on here, I do not have a problem with the Nazi flag being used in table top games, we had them in our game (we were suppose to have some Union Jacks too but they got left in a box somewhere) I also don't believe in censorship (there was plenty of that in Nazi Germany) and I do believe in healthy debate (Not too much of that in Nazi Germany either as I recall) and the presence of a few people in costumes at a convention is always fun or of interest too some and if someone wants to paint their golden eagles at home and stick on their favourite Nazi march CD in their lounge they have a democratic right to do that but I think there is a fine line between showing an interest in history and re-creating it with figures or costumes and showing a lack of good judgement, I think that the line was crossed to a degree in certain places on Saturday, and I find it upsetting myself that it has upset so many people on here, many of whom I have had a good chat with on here elsewhere and also wonder what impression it may have left with some of the passers by.
It did concern me and I dare say it has been of much concern to the Warlords too.

All that said ----- I am anoyed by some of the lanaguage and anger directed at John Treadaway on this forum. I have known John for many years, and I know him to be a kind, caring and sensitive individual. His deadication to the Warlords, the Hobby as a whole and too Salute is second to none, and I have yet to meet an individual who has done more work (much of it selfless and without thanks) to the hobby than anyone else. He has had the courage to post on here about this topic with his real name (Which is more than I do myself, though I do repesent a group) and has made some intersting and valid points which do not warrant the torrent of abuse he has received from some posters in this forum. While John is a driving force in the Warlords, he is not 'the Warlords' but is often prepared to and debate the flak that much of the club will receive. Prehaps you can argue that as the present club chair person of the club that is his luxury, but it is a voluntary and unpaid post and I certainly wouldn't be prepared to do it (My skin is no where near thick enough as it needs to be for such a role)I can well understand the anger that this topic has produced, but a well spoken argument is always more effective that a rant. (And there are many on here)
Further more, I do not think the way foward with this issue is to ring up the the NEWSPAPER, THE SUN, as one WARGAMER, appears to have done. Yes not someone from the London Marathon or a passer by, but A Wargamer from the event itself. Well we all know what an amazing publication and informed piece of work that can be with their amazing work on other such topics as 'Hillsborough'. It has obviously become clear that the Warlords were expecting a few guys in uniforms and some nice bits of kit and vehicles to look at, but what they got was much more than that. The organisers did, once they found out about certain aspects going on (Hitler Youth, Nazi mugs etc) I do not see how phoning THE SUN, a publication that I would not see fit to whipe my own ass with (As two of my friends who passed at Hillsborough will atest too in the next life) will do anything positive or constructive to the hobby.

Salute does improve every year, if they weren't prepared to listen to your comments, well, they wouldn't ask for them, I suspect in time future particpation for such groups will be considered very carefully and if it happens at all with far more stringent rules and guidelines in the future (My understanding is that this mistake on this issue will NEVER, be repeated) but I would not let the comments about this one aspect of the show put anyone else off from going to the event again or indeed for the first time. You will be missing out on a very good show.

My thanks again to all those who played or stopped by our game, I made more comments on that in another folder.

Azanti High Lighting Megagames – 'When your arms can never be quite long enough'.

The adverse comments Mr Treadaway has attracted are not to do with his original, feckimg insane, decision to ivite the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler re-enactment group.

They are to do with his pathetic "I was only doing it to invite debate" defence.

As such, the response is, I believe justified

I do not believe niether of these decisions were his alone. As such I do not think personal attacks of any kind are justified. The Warlords have recognised the mistake and were not informed fully of everything the group were going to be doing.

It is a shame such an event was marred by this, it is easy to understand why some people found such things on display as grossly offended. My Danish father who fought the SS for one thing, would not have been impressed. But I am not going to swear at people about it.

Combat Painter,
99.9% of the posts on this site express disgust at SS re-enactors, but this doesn't line up with your own views.
So you go on and on to impose your views on us until we get sooooo bored we agree. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I think I now understand Americas 'oh so popular overseas policy'
I think, for once, I can speak for the majority,
WE DON'T LIKE THE SS RE-ENACTORS
get used to it, oh, HAHAHAHAHAHA got you, too.
Now, lets get on with the love, brother

:)

I didn't have too much of a problem with the SS re-enactors themselves (I regard them as nutters and a fair way down the down the evolutionary scale from the real ale monsters & lacy pikeboys of the Sealed Knot) but did find the kids very disturbing. Presumably they were the children of the adult re-enactors being 'made' to dress up for the day. Any other option is just way too weird.

Selling Adolf mugs & CDs was at the same level as 'Hitler on Tour' T-shirts; something I hoped we had seen the back of….

For me (and all I talked too) it spoilt the atmosphere of a show that had grown from last year in both the quality of games and layout.

Jon

"Did any dealers complain/leave?"

blimmin ek mate – up at 4am to drive to the venue, set up just in time for first customers – got time for half a sandwich at 2.15pm and a cold cup of tea at 3pm. had a pee at 4pm, closed up at 5.30pm. Got home at 11.30pm meanwhile missing the birth of my second daughter in the process.

In that time how the do you think anybody had the time to even see anything other than that which walks past their stand?

We saw 2 guys in pea-camo and one guy in a SS uniform, we wouldn't know if there was an Roman orgy going on at the stand 3 down. let alone whats going on in the rest of the hall.

Its a maniacally busy show for traders, they dont get time to wander around looking at what's going on – the ONLY chance i get to look at all the fantastic games and products is via pictures folks like SD put up for us.

The idea that some muppets are willing to put every SALUTE trader on to a "never buy from" list, simply because they were there doing their business is the single most asinine comment I've ever read on TMP.

I'm a hobbiest on the far coast of America, so I've not been to Salute and it's not likely I will be. Nonetheless I joined the pasttime as youth during a semester in England, happily handwriting notes from the Featherstone books I found in the public library. And I think this situation is significant enough to warrent comment from anyone in the hobby.

My first reaction is utter astonishment. I have a hard time shaking the colonial predjudice that the British are more worldly and history-aware than us if only because of their role in events. This sort of thing just wouldn't fly here. The local conventions have specific rules forbidding 20th century+ uniforms except on those serving, just to keep the creeps out.

"Fostering discussion" is the intellectually flaccid excuse of every bomb-thrower. There are a billion and one things deserving discussion, global warming, starvation in Africa, the massacre at Virginia Tech. And none of them should be imposed upon the hobby and its members without concent.

So the SS won't show up next year? Big whoop. What about a Sierra Leon child army? As others have noted, re-enactors are nothing but window dressing. A bit of color and excitement to entice outsiders. It is the face of the hobby, a rather sedate and reflective recreation which is always had a problem with Panzer-porn.

The SS???

This wasn't a bad idea in retrospect. It was a bad idea from the get go. I hope the next thing we hear from Mr. Treadaway is his apologetic resignation.

NSN

combat painter.

Perhaps in future I'll use the French "Bolleaux". ;^D

You say "Re-enactors and wargamers are one in the same!"

I'd disagree. We share some areas of interest, in the same way that military modellers do, or military historians do, or even (God forbid) model railway types, but we're not one and the same.

Don't get me wrong, I have some mates who are or were renactors and they are welcome to it, but that ain't my hobby.

Someone made a point about Vikings at Colours, and I'd completely agree. When Colours was at the Hexagon all those silly s achieved was to fill up space in the bar when I wanted to sit down and have a pint.

If they want to dress up then they should go and dress up in a field and throw potatoes at each other to their hearts content. I shan't turn up at one of their gigs with a 6' by 4' table and a box of figures and start wargaming.

I'd just like to add something I forgot above. I wasn't joking when I say that it was the first I'd even heard of it.

That means that of the dozens of poeple who took time to say more than hello to me and of the hundreds of people who were at our stand chatting not one mentioned the display in front of me. Not a single person.

As I said above, perspective.

And all happening a day after "You know who's" 108th birthday.

"This wasn't a bad idea in retrospect. It was a bad idea from the get go. I hope the next thing we hear from Mr. Treadaway is his apologetic resignation."

NSN – resignation from what?

John T

combat painter.

Perhaps in future I'll use the French "Bolleaux". ;^D

I am OK with it as long as you don't Larry Dune after me.

:)

I was not at salute, sadly, and therefore did not see the offending re-enactors.

However I must ask of all those on a moral high horse about there prescence, do you have books with SS in? Do you own SS wargaming units? Are they in proportion or there for a particuular action or did you just collect SS?

Yiou can see where I am heading with this I am sure, look long and hard at home first.

John, as far as I'm concerned no resignation is needed. Just a simple acceptance of the fact that many people regard the decision to let these crackpots strut about was an error of judgement.
Good grief, if we demanded resignations every time someone made a mistake we would need a General Election every six months.

Fred Bloggs,
To answer your questions in order,
No,
No
& No.
I do own a lot of miniatures representing tall blond nordic warriors though, do Vikings count?
Please bear in mind that for many of us WWII is not an area of interest. This is partly due to the fact that some WWII gamers are so convinced of the superior quality of the German armed forces that they find it hard to accept that they lost. Much like these Combat 18 rejects in XXL uniforms

Antenociti, was the Roman orgy participation? Could you use the 'queue buster' badge here as well?

Mark

"we would need a General Election every six months."

and that would be an understatement :0)

Hey if someone did ring the sun maybe they'll pay well for some pictures …. ONLY KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't worry about The Sun Azantithingy. Nobody got their threepennies out so they'll not be interested . . .

;O)

I had never been to Salute before, I am primarily a figure painter not a wargamer. I really enjoyed the show overall and got the chance to meet a few traders I have spent too much money with over the years.

The SS reenactors were however in pretty poor taste and out of place in my view. Yes people can have an interest in the period and indeed in the SS, but dressing up kids as the Hitler Youth at a show aimed at wargamers of all periods seems slightly, well potty really.

I thought it was tacky and, given it was in a major public area with literally thousands of non wargamers and non modellers lining up to register to run the Marathon about 100m away, it was not the sort of image I'd have thought the hobby wanted to project.

I was disappointed and yes I did complain on the day (and the guy I complained to acted as if I was the Nazi which is a tad ironic).

So on the plus side, loads of excellent stalls, great models and I spent too much, but on cool things. But the SS thing left an unpleasant taste I have to say and I can't comprehend why anyone imagines kids dressed as Hitler Youth and cds and mugs with Hitler on them wouldn't turn some people off. There is clearly a world of difference between understanding history and understanding some peoples reaction to it.

Its not being madly PC to think Nazism is still offensive to some people, nor to be of the view that one could recreate the SS in combat without dressing up kids and selling I WUVS HITLER mugs. To have them sat in the show in a prominent position was strange.

I thought it was a real shame. Overall the show gets a positive thumbs up for me..marred by the presence of these individuals. I left when I had finished buying, I was going to stay for the prize giving etc but I was not sure what place the SS reenactors were going to play in it (having seen previous photos of winners posing with Star Wars characters etc) and so I thought it best to avoid the whole thing.

Wargamer for 20 years, went to Salute yesterday, and will be back next year, as long as the Warlords never bring back the knuckledraggers dressed as LAH (Nazis for the non-WW2 buffs). Bunch of sick feckers – as for whoever thought it a jolly jaunt to dress kids up as Hitler youth, they should be hauled off by social services.

Oh yeah, and as for the bloody hitler mugs, WHY John Treadway, didn't you tell them to stick them where the sun doesn't shine????

Its a real shame that the showpiece of the UK Wargaming hobby has given the hippie sandal-wearing elements of the press the chance to tar us all as a bunch of blood-thirsty facists.

I had hoped to attend Salute(for the first time)yesterday but alas the date clashed with the far more important fixture on the football front.

Mixed feelings really- in the event glad to have missed the show as seeing s dressed as Nazi's would have spoiled the whole day. On the other hand Carlisle United lost as well….

Maybe next year. Or there again maybe not, I'll probably stick with the no nonsence Northern show circuit.

What a dreadful own goal our hobby has scored here.

Graham

…we wouldn't know if there was an Roman orgy going on at the stand 3 down…

Don't give anyone ideas…

"we wouldn't know if there was an Roman orgy going on at the stand 3 down…"

What a participation game that would be 80)

Nobody seemed to mind too much when a certain ginger prince dressed up in Nazi gear, not so long ago?
I believe The Sun newspaper milked that one for laughs at the time……..

We had our games of Hour of Glory right next to the re-enactors main area and we thought it was quite cool having a WW2 event next to our WW2 games – then I saw the HY kids and thought that was just wrong…

It would have been much better to have had a group that has a range of nationalities represented and not all SS (why anyone would choose to dress up as them in their free time baffles me…). We didn't do as well as last year and I'm wondering if our location next to the SS display was the cause of this?

As for the rest of the show: thanks for the Warlords for their help with trollies and unloading, and thanks for everyone that played our games and came to our stand! Unfortunately I was so busy on the day I didn't get a chance to see much of the rest of the show…

Gav

To whoever asked if any traders boycotted the sow (or would do); I overheard the guy at the Forgeworld stand talking to a customer about other shows, and he said "I never go to War And Peace; they invite Nazis. I complained, but got no response". If, as it appears, the "Nazis at War And Peace" are the same lot as were at Salute yesterday, you could lose one trader.

(not often you hear about GW doing the moral thing, is it :) )

I saw the military displays; the anti-tank gun at the door, and the halftrack over by the Bring&Buy. My first thoughts were "that looks cool, but sitting there all day in a heavy uniform must be a bit boring". I saw the SS flashes on the uniforms and thought "That's a bit … dodgy, surely. What's wrong with the Wermacht?", although from a purely aesthetic point of view, the SS camo patterns look cooler*.

I saw one kid, about 14 or so, in uniform, and made a crack to a friend about the display representing the Germans in '45. Thankfully I missed the other displays; they seem frankly indefensible. If youwanted to show that the other side were people just like us, well, the ones in the HJ and SS weren't.

* Which is why most people play (or dress up as) Germans; their stuff looks cool (although not IMO; I prefer the British cruiser tanks – Crusader, Cromwell, etc – to Tigers and Panthers).

I didn't go to Salute this year.

I would not have batted an eyelid at the reenactors.

I understand that some people would have stronger feeling about this than me and I accept that.

That is the sum of my opinions on the subject.

Gaz, worried about the Sun, lol. Not in the least.

Chaps,

The big problem here is that this issue has detracted from the following facts:

1. This was a fantastic show. I traveled from the USA for it and having attended salute since the 1980s, found the venue to be the best yet.

2. The warlords both as a group and individually do more for the hobby than any other persons or organization and had obviously put a mass of effort in creating an event for us to enjoy

I was unhappy with the reenactors as I feel that the atrocities of the SS are still within recent history (I get the hypocrisy of saying that other periods are okay to glamorize and agree that there is further hypocracy in saying its okay to paint and model the uniforms but not to dress up in them). Didn't like the kiddy stuff but at the end of the day the parents have to look themselves in the mirror each morning and live with the moral consequences of their actions.

I was behind a group of three SS reenactors at a book stall and was heartened to see one of them enthusing to his mates about a uniform guide in the same way any of us geeks would, thus proving that despite their appearance they are humans.

I regret not actually speaking to one of them and hearing their side of it as my initial reaction was a knee jerk as lots of the comments on this thread.

My own 2 pence is that reenactors in general are great because they are keeping history alive in a tactile form. I think these chaps should do their business in private venues though, where you can make a decision whether you want to go in and see them or not. John has already made it plain they won't be returning so I think the issue is dead in the water and rubbish recriminations (especially by thgose who weren't there) are unhelpful.

Anyone who black lists the show or traders at the show based on the reenactors issue is welcome to do so, but frankly if you're that up tight and myopic its probably best for the rest of us that you don't attend.

Hats off to the Warlords, looking forward to Salute 2008 and hope to see more reenactors there.

Cheers

Guy

On Boer War concentration camps:

The conditions in the camps were very unhealthy and the food rations were meager. The wives and children of men who were still fighting were given smaller rations than others. The poor diet and inadequate hygiene led to endemic contagious diseases such as measles, typhoid and dysentery. Coupled with a shortage of medical facilities, this led to large numbers of deaths — a report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boers (of whom 24,074 [50% of the Boer child population died] were children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation, disease and exposure in the concentration camps. In all, about 25% of the Boer inmates and 12% of the black African ones died (although recent research suggests that the black African deaths were underestimated and though at least 14,000, might have been as high as 620,000)[1]. However the precise number of deaths is unknown. Reports have stated that the number of Boers killed was 18,000-28,000 and little attempt was made to keep any records of the number of deaths of the 107,000 Black Africans who were interned in concentration camps.

I hope we don't get any people dressed as dastardly British Colonial troops next year!

And we certainly wouldn't want any Japanese:

Eyewitness accounts from the period state that over the course of six weeks following the fall of Nanjing, Japanese troops engaged in rape, murder, theft, and arson. The most reliable accounts came from foreigners who opted to stay behind in order to protect Chinese civilians from certain harm, including the diaries of John Rabe and Minnie Vautrin. Others include first-person testimonies of the Nanjing Massacre survivors. Still more were gathered from eyewitness reports of journalists, both Western and Japanese, as well as the field diaries of certain military personnel. An American missionary, John Magee, stayed behind to provide a 16mm film documentary and first-hand photographs of the Nanjing Massacre. In addition, although few Japanese veterans have admitted to having participated in atrocities in Nanjing, some—most notably Shiro Azuma—have admitted to criminal behavior.

Immediately after the city's fall, a group of foreign expatriates headed by John Rabe formed the 15-man International Committee on November 22 and drew up the Nanking Safety Zone in order to safeguard the lives of civilians in the city, where the population ran from 200,000 to 250,000. It is likely that the civilian death toll would have been higher had this safe haven not been created. Rabe and American missionary Lewis S. C. Smythe, the secretary of the International Committee, who was also a professor of sociology at the University of Nanking, recorded atrocities of the Japanese troops and filed reports of complaints to the Japanese embassy.

And no way do we want medieval Russians

The Massacre of Novgorod occurred in the city of Novgorod, Russia in 1570. The massacre started on January 9, and went on to February 12.

Ivan the Terrible was under the belief that the elite of the city of Novgorod planned to defect to Poland, and led an army to Novgorod to stop them on January 2. Ivan's soldiers built walls around the perimeter of the city in order to prevent the people of the city escaping. Between 500 and 1000 people were gathered every day by the troops, then tortured and killed in front of Ivan and his son. [1][2]

The official death toll named 1,500 of Novgorod big people (nobility) and only mentioned about the same number of smaller people. Modern Russian researchers estimate number of victims in a range from 2,500 up to 12,000. (After the famine and epidemics of 1560s the population of Novgorod did not exceed 10,000-20,000.) Having investigated the report of the leader of oprichniks Malyuta Skuratov and commemoration lists (sinodiki), R. Skrynnikov considers that the number of victims was 2–3 thousand [3].

Pakistanis………….

The 1971 Bangladesh atrocities refer to the widespread killings and displacement of civilians in Bangladesh (East Pakistan at the time) and widespread violations of human rights carried out during the Bangladesh War of Independence of 1971 by the Pakistan Army with support from political and religious militias. In Bangladesh, the atrocities are identified as a genocide; however, Pakistan disputes this identification.[1][2] The actual death toll, motives, extent, and destructive impact of the actions of the Pakistani forces are disputed. Bangladeshi authorities and some independent organisations assert that between 1-3 million people were killed, while another 10 million fled the country to seek safety in India.

WW2 Russians……….

, Red Army soldiers raped more than 2,000,000 German women and girls, an estimated 200,000 of whom later died from injuries sustained, committed suicide, or were murdered outright.[30] After June 1945 the Soviet high command imposed punishments for rape ranging from arrest to execution. In 1947 Soviet troops were completely separated from the residential population of eastern Germany. Estimates of the total number of rape victims during 1944 and 1945 are as follows: Eastern Provinces: 1,400,000; zone of Soviet occupation excluding Berlin: 500,000; Berlin: 100,000.[31][32][33] The 2,000,000 rape victims estimate is also supported by the research of historian Norman Naimark.[34] In addition, many of these victims were raped repeatedly, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[35]

etc etc . War is hell, it's also history.

You can spout as many examples as you like, the simple facts are still the same, Salute in a large arena, full of the general public not all of them wargamers, has as an attraction a display of re-enactors dressed in SS uniforms, who were free to wander about, and to sell memorabilia which depicted Adolf Hitler and the Swastika.
The public at large don't know a lot about the Boer war, or medieval Russia, or the India-Pakistan conflict. They do know about Adolf Hitler, Swastikas and the death of millions of jews in extermination camps, because it is flashed across the media, and drilled into people at school. Only this week you had the media hounding Bryan Ferry because he had the nerve to say he liked the way the Nazis advertised themselves, history it may be, but it will never be forgotten.

I don't want to ban re-enactors, there is a time and a place for them, and Saturday was not the time, and Salute was not the place. If these people wish to glorify the SS and Hilter, then good luck to them.
`Likewise there is no need to insult the organisers of Salute, especially John Treadaway, or to boycott traders or the show.

We live in fortunate times, were we have the freedom of speech to be able to say if we don't like something, and that is all the majority of posters on here are saying.
We simply did not like what happened, and are making sure that the message is heard and understood by the organisers, so the same mistake is not made again.

Salute is an excellent show, and long may it continue to be so

Nigel H

Well, as I've said before, as an American, I've traveled to the UK for several Salutes, and enjoyed every one. And I've seen--up close and personal--the assistance provided by the Warlords volunteers to move traders and exhibitors in and out of their venues, and I admire them for that, and for their organizational skills in general.

But how would you feel if you had incurred the expense of trans-Atlantic travel to attend the show, and found something so abhorrent that you and your family could not possibly stay? That's exactly what would have happened to us this year, if we had attended as planned. I didn't have to be there to see what this was about. On examination, the Warlords' Salute Web site did include a link to the Second Battle Group Web site, so it was easy enough to see their focus.

I am relieved to see how many fellow Americans, as well as a similarly overwhelming number of Britons (and likewise those from Canada, the Netherlands, and elsewhere) understand why this group was not a fit exhibitor at a wargames show. Waffle all you like: the SS was a personification of evil. Not fantasy, Mordor orc evil; not cartoonish GW evil: real human evil. I'm sorry there are a few who do not understand. I am grateful to know that there are so many wargamers who remember those who died to defeat that evil. I really do wonder what Don Featherstone--with whom I had a lovely day at a wargames show at Fort Leavenworth once--thought of the displays.

I have already said that my personal actions will make no significant difference--except to me. I appreciate very much those traders who have spoken up. If I am myopic in my viewpoint, fine. At least I can see well enough to realize that there are other fine British wargames shows to travel over to: ones whose organizers (to my certain knowledge) display better sense and attention to detail.

Allen