"Just back from Salute..." Topic

I am still waiting for someone to take my side on this. It is getting very cold and lonely out here. :)

It's not a case of being squeamish or afraid. I would certainly step up and fight (for real) if ever the need arose (both my grandfathers did). It's the taste and perception issue.
Many wargamers seem to rather look down their nose at re-enactors. I don't understand this. I enjoy seeing them around; they impart a certain something that I can't get from drawings or photos, and bring the period to life. It's nice to see people so dedicated to accuracy (other, perhaps, than the diet!) So I have to admit when I saw the photos linked to above, I thought: "very neat, would actually liked to have seen them." Now, the fact that they are SS is a little disconcerting. They could just as well have been regular army.
But English kids dressed up as Hitler Youth? For me that does cross the line. Dressed up a kids that were being effectively brainwashed to, ultimately, die for their Fuhrer? Seems a wee bit wrong. And, again, the perception issue to the outside world!

Combat…it is not as if you don't know me. I was more than happy to kick your arse as the Germans a couple of weeks ago when we played Disposable Hero's – so you know I'm not a knee-jerk anti-everything kind of guy…but even I have to say that a bunch of kids dressed as the Hitler Youth, hanging out with their folks dressed as the ing SS leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Not because they shouldn't be remembered, but because there is no call for it at a ing wargaming convention! What value did it have?

If their was a bunch of people, in different uniforms, and representing a bunch of WW2 people, then you could make an argument that you are keeping the memory alive. But to just have these people dressed like that, with nothing else…smacks of adulation of horror, not memorialising historical fact.

Not only not repeated, but a full apology. Not deployment of a spin doctor trying to convince us all we are wrong or need education. Such arrogance.

Combatpainter: if you tried a little harder, you might be able to insult everyone here, while still missing the point.

I've not been able to attend Salute yet and assuming this SS re-enactor bunch is a one time brain fart, I would still be willing to give it a shot. That said, if Salute is the largest single day in gaming, inviting this group was DUMB.

Yes the hobby may not have the best image but under no circumstances should we go out of our way to make it look worse to the general public and while I'm certain, with a little extra thought something dumber could be conjured up, selling Hitler mugs and dressing your kids as Hitler youth is way up there. I find that sort of thing tasteless at best and embarassing in the extreme for the organization responsible for providing the forum.

I doubt HMGS or any other organization responsible for the big cons would repeat this error or frankly, be dumb enough in the first place, but maybe this can be a lesson learned and any uniforms limited to those on figures 54mm or less.

I did not attend Salute, never been there (as I live in the US, though I have been to Merrye Olde, once), but I did want to say this.

As an American…a veteran and the son/grandson of veterans…

and knowing full well how low the US coin of the realm is in the world of public opinion right now…

My utmost compliments and respects to ALL of YOU who have passed their scorn, derision and out-rage in regards to the SS display and, even worse, the Hitler Youth aspect, at this weekends convention.

…in short…a simple Thank you is in order here!

Regards,

Andrew-KPG/TVAG

"Combatpainter: if you tried a little harder, you might be able to insult everyone here, while still missing the point."

I think he's got it in him yet, come on lad, just one more heave.

I would just like to say on the whole a good show. My son, myself and my nephew had fun playing games, which is what we were there for.

I for one didn`t like the SS reenactors, they struck me as a very creepy bunch, and it wasn`t just the uniforms etc. Regular German Army units are just about okay, but SS, NO, NO and NO!

I am the Grandson of a Desert Rats veteran who also fought at Monte Cassino, and I don`t think he would have been best pleased by people who wish to dress as Nazi`s in their spare time.

Although this is one use of the freedom he and many others fought for, I still think it is in very, very bad taste………

It would only put me off the show, if it became a regular feature etc, but I agree with other posters that the public perception of what is already a rather ridiculed hobby cannot be helped by such acts.

Please do not do this again Warlords.

Thank you

Agent Smith

Bit late, but it was a long day yesterday.

I went, I bought stuff and I have to agree with the majority on here. If those SS re-enactors are ever there again, I won't ever be.

I had no option but to stay as I drove a minibus up from Devon with members of my local club in it. The show itself was good, better laid out than last year and a much better feel to it, but the large (HUGE) area the SS dorks had was almost as excessive as they were themselves.

Sorry John Treadway, but it was a major mistake and I hope and pray that it is not one you will repeat.

My view is quite clear:

Acceptable: displays of vehicles and weapons

Borderline acceptable: (but not to my taste)dressing in accurate uniforms (I accept that people wargame WW2 and need information on details of dress as much as I need information on Spartans)

Not acceptable: dressing minors as Hitler Youth, Nazi themed celebratory merchandise

You had to be there to get the feel of these people and I don't think I have seen comments from anyone yet who was there who didn't feel uncomfortable and concerned for the image of our (harmless but misunderstood) hobby

I am totally in agreement with legatushedlius. Our game was right next to the SS lot, and I was sickened by the arrogant swagger of some of the sad pillocks who clearly thought that dressing up gave them some kind of kudos.

Worse than that, however, was the selling of Nazi memorabilia (Hitler mugs, my God!) and the young lads dressed as Hitler Youth. Frankly I am surprised that the kids haven't been taken into care.

If I am honest I am at a loss to understand why reenactors are attending a wargames show. I appreciate the two hobbies are both based on an interest in things military, and that some people share both hobbies, but they are still, to my mind, separate. I am sure that when forty blokes and a donkey attempt to reenact Borodino in a field near Scunthorpe they don't have a wargames table set up in the middle of the whole event. Why, then, do we have them at a wargames show?

The real shame is that nobody seems to mention any of the other things that went on at Salute this year. Everybody did their best again to bring good games and the traders made really nice stuff. They all seemed to do alright.

From the comments above I make following notes. Ban Reenactment altogether because any depicted soldier would have been a killer. I saw people posing as samurai – not the most friendly lot (the warriors not the actors of course), shall we try to imagine what the Vikings did to Europe (if we may believe the Medieval Church propaganda about them) Killing people on battlefields is unfortunately the hobby we're in. Boardgames in Germany have been about herding sheep and building villages or so for many decades after the war. Only now these people are slowly getting back out with what we all see as a innocent way of remembering history and a fun hobby to do.
We should be more afraid of what's going on in the real world today with youths killing each other at school or in the streets. If they would have been in our hobby maybe they would have been able to redirect their killing on a innocent table filled with lead or plastic figs?
Yes there are very bad connotations to Nazi's and the SS, but and this is not an excuse for what they did, some of them were normal people who tought (at that time) they were doing what they were supposed to.
It is perfectly alright to say NEVER AGAIN and we all should. But let's (and this is the most difficult part of historical thinking and trying to understand the past) all not forget that they did not have the hindsight of what we've got today. Who knows what within a hundred or a thousand years people will say about wars like the one in Iraq?
Yes, I was there, I did see the young children and I did see the whole stand. I didn't see them selling those mugs however. I am/was into re-enacting myself (not german) and even as an allied soldier who liberated Europe from these guys we regularly had averse reactions from the general public, but we were asked many times in small villages where people had tears in their eyes because we remembered and honoured what they had suffered and they were grateful for that.
The youth of today hardly knows who Hitler was or make him like some hero (not the reeactors though or they shouldn't).
This may make them talk about it again.

I also think that this discussion will be one where people who are for or against will dig their feet in deeper and deeper and in the end it will a match of exactly what made wars start: I am right and you are not and if you don't see it my way I'll bash your brains in.

And then, gentlemen, then we would be missing the point.

There are people who will be offended by somebody carrying a fluorescent yellow toy gun and call them "militarists"

I don't think WWII reenactors are a bad idea for a show like Salute. I have no problem with Germans or even SS troops walking around. Though I might give the latter a wary glance.

The problem with the Battlegroup people was that they were pretty much "in your face" most of the time. Aside from the minors in HJ uniforms etc, I think that much of it reeked of "Elite Übertruppen fetish syndrome" Just as some gamers have those March 1945 kampfgruppen that have just enough "invincible" Panther II Uhu, King Tigers, E100 and Maus protoypes to drive the allies back into the Pacific via London, Reykyavik and Oregon.

I would have tried to balance it with some allied troops or at least ask if they could give us a more representative section of the German army.

Combatpainter: it wasn't the uniforms and the equipment that offended me. That was a great display…as can be seen from the photographs you linked to. I liked it.

What offended me was, and this is quite hard to put into words, the "feel" of their stand: the non-military aspect of their re-enactment, the kids in Hitler Youth costumes, the Hitler mugs etc. As I've said before, I think it went beyond re-enactment into glorification.

And that I do object to.

SirG

I think I would not have objected to reenactors dressing up as Waffen SS.

The point is what they did (selling Hitler memoriabilia and dressing up their kids in Hitler Youth uniforms)crossed the thin line into glorifying a heinous regime. That should not have been allowed.

I find presence of the SS at Salue hilarious and am laughing my ass off at how it is winding up all the over-sensitive people.

My view is that if you can have child camp followers etc with other eras to add historical flavour then this is just the same type of thing. I doubt anyone would be complaining if it were the extreme left being portrayed such as WW2 Soviet troops and kids dressed up handing out the red flag. That dictatorship was just as evil as the Nazis.

So I am happy to see the Salute guys flouting the ridiculous political correctness crap we all have to endure nowdays. In my opinion it is the PC brigade who are the new Nazis trying to control our lives.

Well Done Salute guys for doing this and don't feel you have to over-explain yourselves to the PC brigade.

I just checked out the website for this "Second Batrtle Group", and they certainly look a big organisation with lots of incredible vehicles and equipment:

link

But on the fourth page of their photo gallery there is a picture of some of the Hitler Youth kids … which, sorry, just makes my hackles rise. Yes, I can see the need for maybe protraying HJ properly when they crop up in a movie (after all, we wargamers are sticklers for accuracy in military movies) – but to dress up in those uniforms for fun in a reenactment … uh, uh … strange.

Warpainter: "…winding up all the over-sensitive people."

Like over 100 postings in less than a day, an overwhelming majority of them against what happened? And that these posters seem to come from all sides of the normal 'political' divisions in TMP?

I think this is a bit more than just a few "over-sensitive people", Warpainter.

Happy to see Salute guys flouting the ridiculous political correctness crap!!!

OH really, what a ing stupid thing to say, this could well cost them the show at the venue. Yes political correctness is out of control, but making a stand against it, at a major event, where non-gamers in the thousands will see it, thats just ing stupid.
You can stand against PC all you want, but in the end they will beat you down, because they do control your lives, and matey boy there is all you can do about it.

Excel will love to be associated with people glorifying the Nazis, especially if it the story finds it way into the popular press.

In this day and age you have to think very seriously about what you do, and as much as Mr Warpainter thinks its a great idea to promote the Nazi regime at a major event, a lot of people will not.

Over sensitive, not really, worried about the effect it will have on the hobby, you ing bet.

Get real gentlemen

I didn't say it was a great idea to promote Nazis, what I meant was it was a great not to be swayed by PC and do what they want to do.

My own views are that re-enactors should not even be at a wargame event. They are a seperate hobby type in itself. The only good purpose they serve by being there is that we can see their uniforms close up and get some painting ideas.

I'd say the war against the PC brigade has already turned and that they are on the retreat for the first time in 20 years (I even see a change in local government where I work, and if it can happen there it can happen anywhere).

SS = bad choice for Salute but some people do go over the top with their reaction to them. As long they didn't start burning wargaming books or inciting racial hatred I was cool with them being there.

This will rage on but VillageIdiot has it right – I don't mind reenactors like I posted early, I think it's a bit of a laugh as most of them couldn't fit in a 251 let alone jump out of one (would be a bit like me dressing up as a airborne member, they haven't made the parachute big enough yet) BUT the debate shouldn't be should the exist at all (which the probably should) or are they a threat to the fabric of society (which they probably aren't) … the debate should be, 'what harm did they do wargamers already shakey image over here in the UK' and to be honest this was a lot, will be more if any of the cameras down there getting background shots for the Marathon today (of overseas and UK people picking up their packs) had the news sense to shoot a few frames of Hitler Youth and SS bods parading around like it was a staging post for the attack on the capital – if this happens then considering the press over here we are in deep poo!

Villageidiot, you agree PC is out of control but have given in to the PC brigade mate and admitted defeat, that there is no point in fighting back!

I don't know where you are from but here in the UK on Monday it is St. George's day, akin to St Patricks day in Ireland.

We are now in a situation in this country where some areas will not let us fly our national flag tommorrow for fear of offending 'minorites'. That would be the same as banning flying the US flag being on independance day in America. So if you US guys want to know how far this PC crap goes then just happily follow us Brits as we are far more down that road than you guys.

I am a member of Warlords, and I have no doubt that this discussion will happen on Monday at the club.

Therefore I will be silent regarding how I feel about the 2nd Battlegroup re-enacters other than to say that I had no difficulty with the set-up near the door (the Pak36 and crew) who were keeping themselves entirely to military matters. It would have been good to have Allied units present as well to provide some balance, but I guess that depends on who makes themselves available.

It is a pity that this has overshadowed a fantastic show with a huge attendance and many superb games and products on show. As I say, I have no doubt that this discussion will happen on Monday at the club.

Regards,
Colin

TooFatLardies said: "If I am honest I am at a loss to understand why reenactors are attending a wargames show. I appreciate the two hobbies are both based on an interest in things military, and that some people share both hobbies, but they are still, to my mind, separate. I am sure that when forty blokes and a donkey attempt to reenact Borodino in a field near Scunthorpe they don't have a wargames table set up in the middle of the whole event. Why, then, do we have them at a wargames show?"

Amen brother. The moronic so-called 'Dark Age' reenactors at Colours were always an arsepain. If I want uniform reference, i'll get a book or look on the internet. IMHO re-enactor is not part of the wargaming hobby and i always find their presence embarrassing, but the SS & Hitler Youth took this embarrassment to new levels. I completed the Warlords questionnaire in a selfish effort to win £500.00 GBP to spend at the show and didn't make any comment on these re-enactors, but take this posting as a sign of my extreme discomfort.
Please admit to your own goal Warlords and fill the considerable space that was devoted to these knobs to more games and traders.

Warpainter ,I'm British, can't claim to be English as my father is a Paddy and my mother is half jock and half taffy!!

The reason behind the flag thing over here, is the sad fact that the Neo-Nazi groups have taken the St George cross, and the Union flag as symbols for their movement,that coupled with the flag waving s who have spread English culture across the world at Football matches has rather soured the image of the two flags. The PC brigade can't offend the minorities because the minorities may just take to the street, and burn a few things down!!! Its our wonderful multi-cultural society don't you know ;-]]]]
Still does not stop you celebrating St Georges day, if you want to celebrate some Serbian bloke its up to you, I'll stick to St Patrick meself, his beer is better!!!;-]

So yes, make a stand against the PC crowd, the BNP would love your vote, me, I'm just a realist, and prefer to keep my head down and get on with my life.

How far would you go Warpainter to throw out the PC brigade BTW?
Would you prefer Anarchy instead?

Hello!
I read this topic with great interest and i couldn't stay longer without giving my point of view, hope it will not be incongruous. Living in France i still don't have attend to any Salute show, but one day i should do the travel to see that event, as in my point of view it seems to be THE wargame show to see.
About re-enactors i would agree with thebrushlicker as i think they don't really match with the "hobby", in my own they're just geek wanabees. Shows i'd moved here in France that's mainly medieval re-enactors and i always think they make look shows as some "circus" parade : those big too fat guys that in reality would not been able to fight or run more than 10 seconds before falling down or others carrying fac huge weapons while they're built in a "frog's collar-bone"… About those present on the last Salute show, gasp i don't think that any french organizer would dare to invite them at his show! And selling objects as they do is purely forbidden here in France as it is regarded as nazi propaganda…

LOL! 'Political Correctness', that is funny.

I'm an advocate of Political Correctness myself but only to a very limited extent. Sure, some of the old terms we used to use were offensive but the trouble is it is deliberately being used in some quarters as a political device to hide the truth. That sort of political spin reminds me of the 'Nacht und Nebel' of the Nazis, where words like 'resettlement' actually meant extermination.

But this is not about PC. This is about a one sided and pseudo glamourous portrayal of the Waffen SS at Salute.

If you're going to tell a story, tell the whole truth.

Guy

Well, I have to say that the one thing that I didnt like about the show was the SS group in the middle, the kids dressed up as Hitler Youth made me cringe.

As the premier show in the UK in a huge exhibition hall in Docklands the day before the London Marathon this just ended up showing the hobby in a really poor light to any of the 'non' wargamers who might have attended.

I would have been embarressed if my parents or in-laws had come to the show.

I'm seriously thinking about not going again as a trader – what a terrible choice.

I'll add my condemnation of the vile SS display because I want 'warpainter' and show organisers to understand how overwhelmingly negative the reaction was. For the first time ever I went to a wargaming show and was really glad my kids couldn't come.

Yes, re-enact the Wehrmacht or even German paras on the basis that they were 'ordinary people fighting for their country' but let's be serious – if you re-enact an SS division with the name 'Adolf Hitler' you are saying something quite different. You are adopting those Nazi symbols precisely because you know their potency, and know they will get a reaction.

I thought the Hitler Jugend kids and female orderlies disturbing as others have – just one step away from Concentration Camp guards. What disturbed me just as much were that there were SO many of these people and clearly had access to kit worth hundreds of thousands of pounds. This was not Kev and his fat mate Brian dressing as the Imperial Guard – it was dozens of blokes in SS cammo walking around the show and dominating it.

I join with other posters in asking for the organisers to apologise and for whoever put forward to idea of inviting 2nd BG to resign.

Well i'm not an oversensitive PC person at all, BUT I thought the warlords a very intelligent and reasonable sort of individuals who I know some personally, so reading this I cannot for the life of me understand why no one asked these Nazi rein-actors to remove or replace certain offensive materials before the show or after people complained? it is there responsibility to do it I not good I offended any customers to the point they complained or were threaten in any way by individuals invited to attend or be part of my event?

The remarks about these people are by gamers and people who know what they are talking about so I respect it and so should the Warlords..

Always the best show in the UK and it looks very spoiled by this ( thank god the press don't get hold of it or wargames would be in DEEP DODO…)

One wonders just how ed the Warlords committee were, to think having these re-enactors at Salute was a good idea. I wonder if the Excel management will be 'inviting' the S.L. Warlords to find another venue next year. The whole damned committee should be hanging their heads in shame this morning.

I was very disturbed by the kids in 'Hitler Youth' uniform, and was more than prepared to refuse a couple a place in our participation game when they came over to our table.

The comment in one of the earlier postings that, when asked if he had Hitler posters and suchlike in his bedroom at home one of the HY kids had said 'Yes' makes me very fearful of what he will grow up to be like in the future.

It strikes me that the lessons from history are easily forgotton.

I am sure that organisers did not realise that things would go as far as Hitler youth etc? A big mistake. You can dress it up anyway you like but these guys should not have been there.

Villageidiot, I have to admit to St. Patrick's day being far more fun :o)

But back to the topic having read more of the many posts.

I think the most upsetting problem seems to be the kids dressed up as Hitler youth. I am sure I am not alone here in being quietly fearfull for just how serious those kids parents take their 'hobby'. Seems a bit suspect to me and I do honestly worry for those kids minds.

Hitler mugs, flags and CD's? Well if you are daft enough to buy them then that is your problem. I really don't see the point, maybe if you are in a wargame playing an SS force then the mug might be a laugh. But that would not be my 'cup of tea', awefull pun! :o)

But I am quite happy seeing guys dressed up as Waffen SS as they were fighting troops and being in a wargame environment is totally justified as any other military types. Seeing them is not going to turn me into a Nazi or offend me else I wouldn't have painted so many of the s! :o) But I would rather see these guys at their own events they put on rather than the usual daft acting in character in your face they do at wargame shows. I know what I would have said to that Star wars guy if he asked me if I was a geek! :o)

But I really do wonder just how many people here complaining about the SS presence owns SS figures or models? WW2 German forces are the biggest seller in wargame circles, Battlefront admitted to them being 50% of their total sales! We all know why, it is because the Germans have the coolest uniforms and equipment, the SS camo uniforms being the best looking of the war IMO. Any SS on ebay sell like hot cakes! I am sure the buyers are not all hardened Nazis.

Wargamers are pretty intellegent people who should be able to view the Waffen SS presence as no threat to anyones political view. I find it laughable that someone can complain about this and then go to a stall and buy WSS figures or reference books. If you want to ban SS re-enactors them then please be consistant and call for the ban on every aspect of Nazi items, such as the figures and books too.

I honestly feel like some of you guys have a Pavlov's dogs response and have not thought this through, mention Nazi and the bell rings. The irony of how a wargame with SS figures is totally acceptable but a bloke standing in the very same uniform a couple feet away is not.

Please have some freedom of thought else we are all going to end up brainwashed but in the opposite direction.

Warpainter

The "they wouldn't let me fly the flag" issue is NEVER one about the flag and always one about planning laws.

A Good St. George's day to you. I won't be noting it since he is the patron said of England, and not the UK. I imagine you don't do anything of significance for St. Andrew's day.

The Cross of St. George and the Union Flag have been hijacked by moronic types in England, just as Unionist types in Ireland and Scotland have hijacked them

So all the more reason for decent folk to reclaim their symbols, away from the nutters.

Hard to see who, apart from a Hindi, would be wanting to reclaim the swastika. If these guys are enjoying the SS swagger, and in my day I enjoyed swaggering in my Viking or Highlander gear, but they were also profiteering from the Nazis by selling MEMORABILIA then that is so, so beyond the pale.

Interesting thread – and some good comments.

We had a good day at the show – takings were up on last year, we managed to meet some of our regular customers and have time for a chat, and we made some good contacts with new customers.

The day was marred by the theft of some books from our trade stand though – one of our customers also said that he'd had a bag of figures stolen when he was chatting to another trader.

Re the SS reenactors – the REAL soldiers in the British Army refer to these people as "Walts" (short for Walter Mitty) and hold them in complete contempt. To see what real soldiers think of them visit the Army Rumour Service web site forum and read the posts on the "Search for a Walt".

I do think it was in bad taste, my father and late father-in-law both fought against Germany in WW2 and they would not have liked to have seen them. There should have been some allied units to keep the balance.

My own personal comment on their performance?

Lose weight – half of them seemed to be overweight and certainly wouldn't be capable of running round on a battlefield, and in one case the bloke in the black tank uniform probably wouldn't even fit inside a tank – even Goering wasn't that big! Keep of the pies and get some exercise.

Secondly, I don't recall seeing many middle aged panzergrenadiers in the SS. Some of the renactors should have been in the Volksturm instead.

That's my opinion anyway – having spent 26 years in the British army wearing a real uniform, and going to war for real, I don't have much time for these people (although I do rather enjoy the ECW reenactments!). I personally think they do get some private kicks out of wearing the uniform rather than being serious students of military history.

How long before we have an "Iraqi insurgent" or "taliban" reenactment group?

:-)

All the best

Barrie

Allen,

Your boycott of manufacturers is obviously going to be pretty wide, everyone from Flames of war to command decision were represented either directly or indirectly. and none of these producers had seen these re-enactors before the event thus not having the opinion to judge appropriateness. Although if they investigated carefully for such a representation , they would have found it. If you yourself had turned up at the show, you would have had to ban dealing with yourself!

At the end of the day, SELWG have made a big time boo boo. i know our show just would not allow that type of damaging image to be representative of our show.

however, the best selling item for next year is obviously the Adolh hitler mug…..with appropriately added handlebar moustache and round rim glasses, pencil style….with a musical tune in the base so when you pick it up it goes to the sound of "hitler has only got one ball, the other is in the albert hall"

I've got to add another couple of words here… After a night's sleep and a very interesting discussion of the matter with my other half I'm a bit clearer on the whole thing.

First up, I have to reveal a slight embarrassment and lack of WW2 savvy in not even realising, at first, that the guys in question were supposed to be German… When I first wandered into Salute I suppose I was tunnel-visioned on the stuff to buy, but later on I noticed that someone had set up what looked like a small military camp in the middle of the show. "Oh, right," thought I. "That's quite impressive. They've got a little tank and a nurses station and stuff." Later on I passed again, looked a bit more closely (although never too close – I don't get all that near re-enactors in case one of them tries to talk to me or something. Proximity can be misinterpreted as interest) and saw that it all looked a bit German-ish. Again, I mentally shrugged and moved on. My friends had turned up at about that point, and I needed them to keep me away from the Rackham stall before I spent the week's grocery money (it didn't work).

Back to the area later and we commented on how the re-enactors were letting small children operate their artillery weapon (Aww! Bless!), and some jokes were made about how it might be used to do something about the pigeons that had managed to crash the show without paying. I think I may have half-noticed the SS guys at around this time, but I can't say for sure. Had I done, I think I would have felt rather more unease. It was only near the end of the show that I saw the Hitler Youth children and that did prompt a reaction, although at the time one more of wary bemusement than outrage.

The rather obvious contrast between German stormtroopers on one side of the hall and Star Wars stormtroopers on the other managed to get right past me too.

I didn't see the Hitler merchandise, and I'm glad about that. I walked away from the show without a bad taste in my mouth, and I think that might have coloured what was otherwise a very nice day.

I won't let the presence of the re-enactors spoil my memories of the show, nor would I let their presence keep me away from Salute or anywhere else. I wouldn't exactly rush to join their ranks, though.

Thinking about it all, and discussing it with my partner this morning, I came to the conclusion that there's a line up to which you can go without crossing over into poor taste. It's arguable that a regular German soldier is just that, a soldier doing a soldier's job on, from our point of view, the wrong side. I've got no problem with that, really. I might look askance at the guy in an SS uniform, though, because there's no arguing that he was an ordinary soldier, is there? At that point you've gone over the line, no matter how cool you think the coat looks.

As for dressing your kids up in Hitler Youth uniforms, that's well past the line and out the other side. Seeing people dress their kids up like any kind of fashion accessory makes me hate humanity at the best of times, and putting a Hitler vibe on them just beggars belief. It's not like they can make an informed choice on the matter, is it?

And from a non-gamer's point of view comes one final point. My girlfriend, a non-gamer but interested and tolerant of the hobby, couldn't see why the re-enactors were there at all. She can see the enjoyment I get out of my gaming in terms of tactics, challenge, and the fun of just plain playing a game. People dressing up, to her, just isn't anything to do with gaming.

Hey Combat Painter,
I'm with you mate I thought your original comment was witty and had a valid point.
Some folks are getting too het up about this I was there yesterday, the re-enactors were a bit over the top certainly and made themselves look ridiculous is all. But folks on here verbally attacking John Treadaway (some of whom didn't even go to Salute) that is also getting ridiculous.
By the way, before anybody infers from this that I must be pro nazi or something, my wife is Indian and I have done my proud bit for race-mixing for the next generation. If someone offered me a nazi mug or cd I would just laugh at them you are not obliged to buy that crap.

James

Hello,

I wasnt at Salute and havent seen the SBG 1 Group myself.

I read all posts in TMP about this topic, looked at the pics at Steve Dean Forum and checked the SBG 1 Website. I found this!

The SBG 1 claim :

The Second Battle Group is acutely aware of its controversial portrayal in this hobby and is a totally non political organization. People with para military, ideological or extreme views will not be accepted for membership.

But in my opinion this statement is hard to believe when you press little kids in Hitler Youth uniforms, sell Adolfs` famous tea pot and Nazi songs on cd in the public. In my eyes its disgusting and should not be at a wargames show.

As a German I always wondered, why our former enemies glorified the German Army and especially the Waffen SS.

When Iam in England I can buy things in shops for which I would get problems with the law when I buy, sell or wear them in Germany in the public.

I wasnt really surprised to see what happened at Salute when I checked TMP this morning. It is the logical consequence. It shows us how close we come to frightening reality when we play with toy soldiers reading books and watching films about war.

Iam glad to see how many didnt like this Nazi appearence in London. Gives me hope that this is still my hobby.

Thanks for your time

Cheers
Björn

I do have one question though…considering the overwhelming wave of opinion here is/was "Against" the SS Display and the HY adjunct.

Money has power.

Why then did not the DEALERS stand up, en masse or in large enough numbers to the show organizer/creator and let him know that either the SS display took a hike or THEY would???

Understanding of course that fees were already paid, booths set up, etc…the threat of a no show the following year would have been at least as powerful.

Did any dealers complain/leave?

Went to Salute full of high expectations for a grand day out and a mega spendfest. I have to say I had both and then some. But, putting SS reenactors right in your face as you enter is a mistake anyway in a wargames show. Games, not reenactors, should be there.
I'm not usually accused of political correctness by those who know me, quite the opposite really, but as a teacher for 30 years I have to say there should be no place for reenacting the Hitler Youth!I would have worried about any of my very young students subjected to such insidious propoganda by their parents.
So, John, given that the majority of posters on this thread think that you made a big mistake, if they are truely representative of wider opinion I don't think you have much choice but to put your hand up and say you made a mistake. Warlord members, if you feel your committee got it wrong, then in a democracy you have the perfect answer, vote them out at the next AGM.
Myself, I'm not easily offended and I will be there again next year. But, I hope I won't have to see what I thought was a misguided display with potential to do damage to public perceptions of our hobby at our showcase event again.
David

Björn – well said! Hear, hear!

I didn't look at what the 're-enactors' were doing inside the show in any detail; I probably wouldn't have regardless of what was being re-enacted, but certainly don't wish to spend my time looking at men, women, and children dressed in SS uniforms.

What really concerned me, though, was how the hobby comes across to those (non-wargaming/military hobby) people registering for the London Marathon, or attending the pet show, who sat eating lunch or having a coffee as SS troops walked by with guns. Maybe they wouldn't have recognised the troops as SS, but the SS re-enactors didn't get the same welcome and smiles as the Star Wars re-enactors did. Anyone I spoke to or observed the reaction of – gamer or not – was either very clearly disgusted or more mildly taken aback. No-one seemed to take it in their stride or put it down to 'those crazy re-enactors'.

Each and every one of us can take their own view on why those people want to dress up as Nazis (and for me, it was only when I was travelling home contemplating the day that my bemusement turned to anger), but like it or not, the many thousands of non-wargamers who were in or around Excel that day – and the SS ventured outside the building in unifrom and with their weapons – will take away the memory that wargamers dress up as German (Nazi) soldiers and like to make their children and wives do it to. And that's really not going to win the hobby any popularity votes.

Bad choice of re-enactors by the organisers.

I didn't attend, nor do I plan to in the future distance would preclude it anyway, what I find disturbing is the response given to what was clearly both an insensitive and quite silly decision to host these clowns.

I'm sure Mr Treadaway is a nice chap, I'm sure he doesn't concur with Nazi ideology or even it's fetishisation and I can understand that in the immediate aftermath he needs to discuss the issue with his fellow committee members.

But to defend the decision on the basis of it being in some way 'thought provoking' is both ludicrous and dare I say it a morally ambiguous position to take. Oh yes we just wanted people to think. Right…. a handy defence for folk caught daubing swastikas on synagogues. 'Oh yeah I was just trying to engender debate'

As the organiser of a major event, giving the public face of the hobby, what was it Warlords wanted the public to think? That the hobby thinks nazi fetishes are cool? That wargamers live in a moral vacum? That participants in the hobby are even sadder than they suspected?

If you want to provoke thought, here's an idea… start a thread on TMP. 'Dear readers, we are the organisers of a major public event that showcases wargaming. This year we were contemplating the participation of a group of guys who get their jollies dressing up as Mr and Mrs Hitler'. Something along those lines.

Personally I concur with Allen in it being extremely distasteful and with Too Fat Lardies as to the possible relevance of so called re enactors anyway. Want to display militaria at the show, well how about a static display a glass cabinet whatever. At the handful of these sort of events I have attended I always cringe at the sprinkling of invariably overweight, ageing buffoons dressed up as William McGonagal, Napoleon or whoever. For all I care they are free to do so in the privacy and comfort of their garage.

Judging by the overwhelming negative response to the display I think the staging committee should consider a major mea culpa, not mealy mouthed excuses. It leaves one questioning the judgement of people who for better or worse craete a public preception of the hobby.

Awful spelling and syntax, apols

I have not attended Salute since Kensington town hall but surely no one could be so naive as to believe this is an issue purely for those who attended or even those who are wargamers.

"Engender debate", pathetic! You may not have noticed but the rest of the world had this debate many years ago.

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid. Just apologise and hope that as a result these maladjusted clowns realise they are not welcome in ANY aspect of wargaming.

John Preece

I have been a re-enactor in my time, (Napoleonic British Cavalry) and I see no need to have any re-enactors at a Wargame show, never done it, never wanted to.
Lets face it Salute made a big on this one, I haven't seen any press about it, so hopefully they got away with it. John T seems to be getting the lions share of the flak for this, but I'm sure he has to toe a little party (Sorry) line on this one, and I'm sure we will never see the SS goons at Salute again, or, if they have any sense, any other Shows, so people, job done, and well done!
They should never have been there, and they disgust me.

Oh and Combatpainter, you are a very silly man.

"Did any dealers complain/leave?"

While that would have made an impression, Salute is a big deal for many traders. I know at least a couple that make about 40% of there annual trade off the back of Salute, both from the event and from follow on business over the next couple of months. I doubt they could afford to do that even if they wanted to.

Also, having worked as a trader at Salute for many years (thankfully not for the last two, so can attend as a punter) many of them probably didn't even realise they were there. It's a busy day and the only chance you get to leave the store is usually to quickly buy the bits you wanted to get and nip to the toilet.

I agree with Gecoron.

If it was intended to promote a debate I would have liked to see a display alongside on the appalling crimes against humanity committed by the regime they represented. The display I saw did not show any downside.

I too had a German friend as a vsitor and he was very surprised and shocked to see it. Fortunately he is very open minded otherwise it could have caused problems between us.