"Just back from Salute..." Topic

I was deeply offended by the re-enactors at Salute this year. Let me explain why…

1) I can appreciate the amount of time and effort that went into the re-creation of the uniforms and equipment. It was superb, and they looked amazing. I wanted the SdKfz for my front garden! Top marks all round.

But they didn't leave it at the re-creation of the uniforms and the military equipment: if they had, I don't think I would have had a problem.

The problem was that they went past that point and seemed, to me, to be glorifying the soldiers that they represented beyond their military abilities and towards the regime and ideologies that they represented.

Worse than that: they had women and children dressed in nazi uniforms as well. What the "bleep" has that got to do with wargaming?

I have German soldiers. I have Assyrians, and Romans, and all sorts of other "nasties". But my soldiers represent the military aspect of that particular culture, and not the culture itself. This was beyond that point: it was just plain sick.

2) I agree with the points above about the possible PR consequences of that group being seen at a wargaming show.

We have enough difficulties with the way this hobby is perceived without giving tabloid journalists an excuse for writing stories that could be extremely damaging to the hobby.

Sorry, Salute Organisers, you got this one wrong.

I complained to the Info Desk on the day. I'm complaining again now. It won't stop me coming to Salute again, but it certainly soured this year's experience. Other than that, it was a damn good show.

SirG

The '' SS '' presence was greatly disturbing – salute is the UK's one big chance to bring wargaming into the mainstream with a potentially massive show of force of what we do in a major venue .

If any vaguely interested non gamers ask me what wargaming is about – I say ''go to salute – have a look its a great day out ''. I'm sure non gamers visiting the show would have looked on them with complete horror .

A friend of mine who is Jewish was extremely upset by their presence and initially thought something wrong – were they at the correct venue ?? He was visibly upset and disturbed , especially as the reenactors decided to walk around the show for most of the day ; the Hitler youth and Hitler youth ''baby'' was an outrage and moreover unnecessary .

This kind of thing sends gaming underground and non gamers are simply pushed to think of us as '' unusual'' .

BTW ; This same group appeared at the ''war and peace'' victory show at Beltring for the 50th aniiversary of VE day – I thought this a poor choice and one that caused massive outcry from the local population at the time .

I'm just glad I didn't see the Hitler mugs! Just hearing about them makes me even more convinced that these people were beyond what I would expect from re-enactors at a show.

To re-iterate my point: they went beyond an exhibition of the military/wargaming aspects of an SS unit and way too far towards a glorification of the nazi regime and ideology.

SirG

Just another ed off punter saying that the SS goons should not have been at Salute today.

Well said Allen and Phil.

This was a stupid decision on the part of the Warlords. Dumb, short sighted, insensitive. And as usual, Mr. Treadaway wriggles with some snot about encouraging debate. I am not interested in debate, I am interested in half the bleeping London Marathon and their families seeing Nazis at a hobby show.

Why SS? Why not Wehrmacht? And where were the allies?

And here is the final part of the story. I thought people were talking about the anti-tank emplacement which is the first thing you see as you walk in the doors. No, they were talking about the bleedin' installation in the centre of the hall with everything bar concentration camp guards on display. With kids in SS gear. And selling mugs and CDs!

I sat for a while at a cafe table with two German gamers. I have seldom been so embarrassed.

It ruined my day, which was otherwise enjoyable (if too short, as usual – perhaps Mr Tredaway could have a debate on that too).

It was a complete disgrace, and the Warlords should be ashamed.

I was a bit tasken back when I saw the "living history thing" which was a mock up of a German "home front" also a German medical team?

The Billy Bunter tank ace was no surprise as I beleive being in excess of 20 stone is almost a pre-requisite of all re-enactors, I remember seeing obese Confederate and Pikemen bursting out of their tassets…

I did ask one of the SS guys if he had received any bad comments to which he replied no but that an old boy chatted to him about using the SS whilst POWs as labourers and that they had got the uniform and look right. Also that one member had a bit of bother and he was a serving Soldier in HM Forces – a Para?

I have seen these guys before at Bovingdon and Kirby Hall, personally the SS guys dont bother me, not my cup of tea but in hindsight I bet the other exhibitors or visitors in other halls must have gone away with a few strange ideas.

It is geeky and a bit worrying but then again everyone who has Waffen SS figrues hold up your hands? I do and I could say, so would a good proportion of gamers.

No hitler youth though which was, well, dodgy and it would not be good if those people ended up in the press…especially when ther eis a high liklihood with the Marathon tomorrow….News of the World (sunday newspaper) "Big boys with toys-secret hitler club" I can see it now

PS THe show was great, fantastic demos, array of traders, the organisation was second to none.

Indeed some of our own members are very uneasy about the Second battle group's involvement.

Our membership did not object. We discussed on committee and voted:

Two statements, one author. A committee is sometimes an elected dictatorship.

I wonder how people would have felt if there were actors there dressed as NKVD troops, especially if there were any Poles in the Excel centre.

I found the Nazi symbol far more disturbing than the SS flashes or uniform, because it could be recognised by members of the general public.
I find it strange though that we as wargamers and historians consider the SS so much more evil than other equally 'repulsive' military formations.

If I come across as over the top, it is partly because I have taken enormous pleasure in attending past Salutes: finding all the traders in the nooks and crannies at Kensington; huffing and puffing up and down the stairs at Olympia while collecting a roll-aboard full of pre-orders; meeting friends and making new ones.

If we had gone today, it would have been a very bad day for us.

Allen

Interesting debate. I wonder how many Hitler mugs they sold?

I see these guys, and many like them, at War & Peace in Kent every year. While I am not a re-enactor, I do believe they have a place in the study of military history, and the various hobby aspects of it; Salute was probably not such a place, however. They send a less than positive note to the general public, which is why many large scale re-enactor events in the UK will no longer let SS units 'parade'. If you think what you saw here was bad, check out some of the downright bizarre sights to be found at W&P every year. Then again, perhaps not.

Personally I wouldn't let these people ruin the event for me, as I see them as ridiculous as the super-size Boba Fett running around. Forget them, and move on. Looks like those who run Salute will be doing the same, judging by the reaction here.

I enjoyed Salute 07 but I still think it lacks an 'atmosphere' in this new venue. I would like to see more games, and a softer surface to walk on – my feet ache after pounding that black floor! But the whole thing was an improvement on last year, so I await to see Salute 08.

"If we had gone today, it would have been a very bad day for us."

With respect, Allen, you have not been able to attend Salute since it moved to Excel. If you had you would have realised that the hall at Excel is big enough for you to have done what I did today – avoid the re-enactors like the plague.

My tuppence worth [since every other has had his/hers]…

The show…generally very good. Plenty of space to wander and/or sit down as the mood took us. Transport was very smooth [handy tip…go to the other exit and the next DLR station – it's much less crowded..doh..shouldn't have mentioned that!]

Traders…a fairly good showing: I got most of what I wanted and saw lots of other interesting bits but resisted valiantly and didn't spend as much as I'd expected to.

Games…as always lots of games that made me go..ooooh…and a fair smattering of participation games to entertain Alfredo Jr.

He was especially pleased to die heroically as Khamul the Nazgul in the Warlords main game [not sure Nazgul are heroic but you get my drift]. I did think it missed the very large scale games that had been present last year – the Warlords Cloudhips game and somebodies [can't remember who..sorry] Star Trek game…such a large venue cries out for a couple of games on this scale.

The re-enactor controversy…I've always maintained reenactors are an odd bunch at the best of times but this time round it left me speechless. Yes, we know WW2 gamers love to have SS divisions rolling across the table [generalisation I know!] but to dress up as one is a BIG step on. I was totally gobsmacked when I came across the Hitler Youth kids and had some interesting discussions with my own son about what the HY were.

Thought-provoking?? Yes but also crass and appalling in equal measure. As Legatus and others have pointed out, Salute has such a public face that anything of this nature only gives a sick view of what is at best a misunderstood hobby but I think it's also fair to add the disgust of lots of wargamers as well. I heard countless comments about it around the hall including several from Warlords members themselves.

Shameful

Apart from that I thought it was a good show…not necessarily any better than previous years but good nontheless.

Salute last year felt a bit flat. I was encouraged that this year certainly had more of a buzz and seemed that SLW had really got to grips with the new venue, better layout, great access for loading and unloading (I was working!).
I heard that the door was up on last year and while we had peaks and troughs, I think when the totals are added up we were slightly up on last year.
The German reenactors……..mmmmmm….I thought that the kit and equipment for the 'field forces' was good and I am not overly sensitive to them being SS types (as has been stated, lots of gamers field them without much moral debate).
I was however uncomfortable with the kids in Hitler Youth stuff and worried that the European gamers that attend could have been offended by the whole display.
Public perception – I honestly don't think that it will be greatly affected, we are viewed as geeks as best and warmongers and glorifiers at worst anyway!
Good day, great games….not ruined but think that a valuable lesson has been learned.

My God- first the thread about the effectiveness of a Glock at killing students and now SS reenactors at Salute!? It's been a bad week on TMP.

There was a thread a while back about the use of a nazi flag at a game and the debate followed a similar theme to this one- it's just history 'deal with it'- versus the outraged majority.

I can't think of a worse face of wargaming to present to the general public than this. If it had been tempered with some allied reenactors too, maybe it wouldn't be quite so shocking, but children dressed as Hitler youth? just…why?

Paul
(who didn't go to Salute)

The point that people don't always get is he public image thing. It's hard enough to sell the hobby as a serious pastime without including idiots like these in our shows. There is no way that you can seperate the re-enacting from the politics of the originals, and if their behaviour serves to emphasize the evils of National Socialism then their behaviour is all the worse. These are the people who would have gassed my children (because they have autism, a mental handicap) and possibly me, for marrying a black woman. They were detestable and we should never, ever, forget that. This behaviour is not a game, and we should remember that.

Laurence

The first thing I had to say about Salute, to the chaps I travelled up with today, was that the SS people were an uncomfortable presence.

The various salient points have already been made but I'd like to suggest to the organisers, who in every other respect put on a great show, is that they don't do anything so self -evidently offensive again.

Funnily enough, the last time I mentioned the strange (and disturbing) preponderance of SS in WW2 re-enactment societies on TMP, I was lambasted for being too PC?

It's re-assuring to know I'm not in the minority.

Hear, hear Lau.

Phil

…oh..and one more thing [actually I'm sure I'll think of more in a minute..]…

I heard a tannoy call..

'Larry Dunn, please go to the Too Fat Lardies Stand"

…did he ever turn up???

Just back from London.

I was taken aback when I entered Salute this morning to find the SS re-enactors; I did feel it was an extremely poor decision by the organisers to have such a group at the show. But what was unpalatable were those kids parading around as Hitler Youth. Unacceptable.

We get a bad press and this sort of decision highlights why.

However I do like to see re-enactors/living history at this event. It can help reach out to non-wargamers and put our hobby into context. I also like the Star Wars guys!

But the SS group crossed that cliched fine line between what is controversial and what is unacceptable.

Unfortunately we English do not complain enough, especially in writing. Therefore I half expect the organising committee to say that only a very small minority of visitors complained therefore there is no need for a public apology.

Phil

I'm as sensitive as a house-brick when it comes to what some people find offensive: 99% of what gets the proverbial ‘Man on the Clapham Omnibus' red in the face I tend not to even notice. However, even this cynical and uncaring old git had to raise an eyebrow at the Hitler Youth kiddies, and I commented to the guys I was with that I wasn't "too sure about that…" There was a general nodding of assent and then we moved on.

Meanwhile, the important stuff.

A great Salute this year, far better than last year, as evidenced by the soreness of my feet and the emptiness of my wallet. Not to mention the dark looks of my other half when I returned home with an armful of AT-43 boxes. Well, that 3 for the price of 2 deal was just too tempting… Some of the demo games were amazing, the Aztec (Mayan? Inca? I'm hopeless at telling the difference) setup being especially worthy of note – I loved the racks of skulls and the bloodstains down the steps of the temple – and the Star Wars stormtroopers were very effective wandering around. The town crier was a bit hard on the ears, though, with that bell. Glad he wasn't around for long.

All in all, a damn good show, and I'm looking forward to next year.

I feel for Mr. Featherstone. He spent 1939 to 1945 fighting the Nazis, and then to go and do a book signing with the Cult of Hitler around him must have been totally disgusting to him.

I'd ask that the Warlords not invite the Second Battlegroup back. For us foreigners, we'd love to see history about England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. I'm sure there's some of them around. In fact, Salute had some in years past. That's my take, at least.

As to discussion on difficult topics, is that the mandate of the Warlords? I suspected it had more to do with wargaming than challenging the thoughts and beliefs of gamers and the general public. Go back to your charter. I'm guessing it has some pointers for moviing forward. Especially check the mission statement. I could be wrong, but if I am, then I feel it's the charter that's at fault, not the concept.

The first WWII german reenactors with the Pak 36(with no Waffen SS – black uniforms) by the main entrance were acceptable & I appreciated their presence.It looked impressive.

When I went over to see one of my friends working at Leisure Games, he said "Have you seen the kids dressed as Hitler Youth?" I thought he was joking for a minute.But he was serious & thought it was very distrubing & distasteful. Well at this point myself & my partner(her first Salute)thought we have to make a point & see this. Well I couldn't believe it when I saw the main central display (the vehicles & German soldiers were OK)but the Waffen SS, the kids dressed in black as Hitler youth & the women were all totally OUTRAGEOUS!!! Very bad taste, not cool.Don't get me wrong I love watching WWII films,when I watched "Downfall" & "Schindler's List", I knew what I was getting into,but I didn't expect to see Nazis on a beautiful sunny spring day in East London. Also where were the allied forces reenactors to balance this out.

Salute is a wargaming event(which I have been attending since the days at Kensington Town Hall) & I don't know any wargames where Hitler youth are represented.Do any manufacturers make Hitler youth (I've only seen the undead one in 40mm)?

I enjoyed the rest of the show & will be attending in the future, as long as there are no Nazis, especially Hitler Youth(NOT ACCEPTABLE).

Fabio

I too went to Salute today and had a great time, spending cash and looking at all the wonderful games (especially the Continental Wars Society game, truly inspired!) We did see the re-enactors, both SS and Star Wars and tried to avoid them. The presence of the SS and HY was truly offensive. As others have said why not dress-up as Allied troops? At least they won the war. I saw two people pretending to be British soldiers and they were carrying medical bags. Whilst the SS actors were carrying weapons and strutting around.

To be totally honest, I felt uncomfortable when the Star Wars troopers kept stopping and, apparently, forcing a member of the public to kneel down whilst they pointed a gun at his head. How is that entertaining?

As someone who had some critical points on last year's event I'd like to start with a few positives this time.

Well done to JT and Co for upping their game in terms of the layout, much better apart from the spacing being a bit off so there was a Kensington Town Hall type jam down at the Trench Raid game end. Felt a lot more like it should.

I did enjoy it far more than last year (not putting a game on this year did help, I have to confess) and will be back apart from the caveat at the end of this post.

Things not so good:

1.Sad to say the lighting is still not that great but I appreciate that decent lighting rigs are way beyond the Warlords budget.

2.What is the parking all about? Again perhaps not a fixable thing but £9.00 GBP and no signage on, how, where and if to pay! Along with a more than sneaking feeling that those of us who did shell out were total mugs as there appeared to be no staff to check or administer retribution on those who did not!

3.The idea of putting painting competition entries in glass cabinets and then roping them off so you could not get near enough to see was naff.

Oh! And Then!…………..

***G Nazis! NO, NO and again NO!

OK, from a detached level their stuff looks good and ageist and sizeist remarks apart (both valid observations in my view) those who have already posted have made telling points.

This is the show case of the hobby with many potential players attending not to mention their parents and many European visitors as well. To have a WW2 German unit represented is questionable, to have an SS one, totally unacceptable!

I also support the view that it must have given a very twisted aspect to anyone else visiting EXCEL on what "playing with soldiers" is really about, but the thing that really did it for me was the young woman with the baby in the push chair. Apart from the selective breeding program, what the hell was she supposed to represent?

I really don't care if these people are well thought of in re enactment circles, what they do there is not reflected on my hobby, today was!

Quite simple, they come again, I don't!

This was a topic of conversation for my two show-bnuddies and I today. I wasn't greatly bothered by the re-enactors themselves, and didn't pay them much attention so didn't notice the Hitler youth et al. What I did find most disturbing at the time was the merchandise – the hitler mugs, the swastika flags and so on. It was our topic of conversation over lunch, evolving as two of the more rotund members of the reenactors swaggered past in full SS regalia.

Bearing in mind that as well as Salute there were sign-ups for the London marathon and some sort of financial investments thingy going on at ExCel today (and the irony of the London Marathon sign-up and the sterotypiycal Salute visitor tickles me), I think this could have been a potential PR disaster – and may well still be.

G.

I enjoyed Salute greatly, were the numbers up? They certainly seemed to be lots of folks. I got away quite lightly with only one wallet refill.

The SS unit will, I am sure, not be repeated for a few years.

Pvovsho: yes, there were at least 4 (and probably more) kids as Hitler Youth, I would guess the youngest was about 7. I agree with "Fab Hornet" on this – there is a fine dividing line in re-enactment but most rational people would say dressing children as Hitler Youth falls well on the wrong side of it. If the SBG re-enactors had much self-awareness they would avoid involving their children in this activity. If re-enacting Nazis is an acceptable hobby pastime (not at all clear to me that it is) it's one for rational and careful adults not children.

John Treadaway: yes, this has stirred an interesting and at times uncomfortable debate that gets to the heart of several awkward issues for the wargaming hobby. But the vast majority of posts on this thread (which reflect chats with other friends visiting the show) view involving this group on these terms at Salute as a major mistake.

PeteUK: I agree re the Aztec/whatever temple – truly superb and deserved some kind of prize.

10thFoot raises an interesting point – these re-enactors would I think have been much less offensive if (a) presented alongside some other WW2 forces, and (b) had stuck rigidly to military matters and not had merchandise, Hitler Youth kids etc. It's hard to put any charitable / positive interpretation on the merchandise. SBG presumably realise that purchasers of such items are not likely to be neutrally minded historians or anti-nazis; don't they feel the tiniest bit bad about that? (And if their focus really is on history, why not recommend and sell some of the more scholarly analyses of the evils of the regime and the factors behind it, e.g. the Richard Evans books, or some of the books on the disquiet various factions within the army felt with Hitler and why – with certain notable exceptions – they didn't act on it, rather than material that could – putting the best possible light on it – be abused by apologists for the Nazis.)

Personally I found the reenactors very sad, particularly the Hitler Youth kids (there were three by the way).

A mixed group of Allied and Axis might have worked better.
I've been to War and Peace where the mix works well. With only Waffen SS at Salute, the plethora of SS pea dot camo was a 'bit' much.

Apart from that, it was a good show over all.

Guy

Would everyone else here be interested to read what the SBGers say in their own defence? – I certainly would (as per above, I wish I'd asked them myself but general alcoholic mental impairment and focus on buying lots of lead prevented this).

SS at Salute, it would seem, for once, I am in total agreement with the majority.
UTTER, UTTER, UTTER, SCUM!
Harsh? I don't think so, I have never been so embarrased to be seen at a wargames show.
My one joyus memory is that I got my arse out and mooned them! come on, it had to be done!

Cracking show, loved the Dambusters game!

I was offended a lot more of what I saw in the streets of London the day before Salute than with guys who are 1:1 scale mock ups of the figs I painted several years ago.
Could they have been better of with a mix with allied? Probably, but we all watch movies, a large crowd visits shows like Bovington Tank fest, The Hop Farm or Detling all places where these guys are present as well (lots more of them)

But – and I'm everybody has his cons and pros about this particular item of Salute 07. I got me a wonderfull free figure, saw loads of nice games, bought way to many new stuff and saw old friends again.

All of that no reason at all for me to stay away next year, on the contrary.

(PS, my grandfather spend a few years in a German prison during the war for doing his job as a Belgian Railway employee)

Interesting debate – Salute was good I felt, but somehow I still miss Olympia, Excel – more room, more stands, possibly more people, more ease to travel and parking BUT IMHO less atmosphere.

SS guys – on the bright side I got quite a few pictures of German kit which will prove useful I'm sure. My mate Steve and I thought the kids and the SS Nazi nurses were the most worrying, as for the actual soldiers we couldn't help thinking that it was a shame the real SS were not of the same proportions and stature as the blokes there as then the war could have been over by Xmas :-)

While I have no objection to them at somewhere like the War & Peace show (Beltring) in an enclosed non public space I must admit I didn't think it showed the hobby in a good light when they were wandering about for all the marathon bods to see and the whole 'we live the lifestyle' feel of the display (the bedroom and kids again) was slightly worrying and made me have an urge to see if the MG42 could be modified to fire again just to prevent any untoward repetition of history :-)

Bad choice I felt and obviously one which is going to give the organisers some flak.

But is anyone dressed up as dodgy a deal? I had an Uncle die at the hands of some hyped up on samurai bushido ideal kamikaze pilot – should I have wanted to kick the daylights out of the dudes dressed as Samurai and Ninja in the same way as I wanted to punch the lights out on the SS cronies – maybe, but then where do we stop, the stormtroopers could have been the next on the list as when I was a lad Princess Leia was like a goddess to me … SO in the end I dunno what to make of the SS dudes, perhaps the answer is the organisers should have asked before hand, even on TMP about what we would think!

Well, I didn't go, and after reading about all the excitement on the 'eve' I was shocked and saddened upon opening this thread. Certainly seems like bad judgement (Hitler Youth kids … holy crap!)
I hope we can have another thread were we can talk about just the happy bits, such as the games, vendors, purchases, etc. Love to hear about that stuff.

To have nazi reenactors at the show was completely wrong – completely wrong. I cannot add anything more than has already been eloquently put by others, suffice to say I feel a serious lack of moral judgement was in evidence today.

It does seem a shame that the presence of the SS re-enactors seems to be the main topic of conversation about the show.
I could not make it this year, due to family commitments, So I missed out on the controversial display.

Re-enactors don't bother me that much, I would have attended as a trader, so I expect that I would have missed the bulk of their display. I'm more disturbed by the fact that young children were involved, and that the group were allowed to sell some rather distasteful souvenirs, which appear to include Nazi flags, I presume these were the Red Black and white Swastika flags, and mugs with Hitlers face on them.

With public perception of gamers generally to be that we are a bunch of sad, no life, geeks, associating the hobby with SS re-enactors was probably not a great PR exersize.

There, hopefully, will be no fall out from this, I doubt whether it would appear in the press, perhaps a local rag would pick it up, but not one of the majors.

Is Excel a privately run concern, or does it fall under the control of the local council?
If its a council run operation, then there could be consequences, local councils don;t take too kindly to displays supporting the Nazis, and the Warlords could find themselves out on their arse next year.

I see no reason to boycott the show, yes maybe the organisers did make a mistake allowing the SS group in, and after all the reaction, I expect they will think a lot harder next year about who to allow.

its good to hear that numbers were up, and the show was an improvement on last year. Salute is an important event for the hobby, with a high profile and a good reputation, lets hope that none of this SS nonsense comes back to haunt the show.

Nigel H
Anglian Miniatures

I only recently, 4 years ago, back into figure wargaming. Salute was on my list of must dos for next year.

No ing way now.

This is on a par with the printing of a paean of love to the SS in the wargames mag a couple of years ago in the guise of the Legion of St. George. The idiot editor seemed surprised not only at the response, but also that the article was a load of .

WHo the thought that having a bunch of folk dressed as the SS would be a nifty idea. I know you get some wits in re-enactment, I met a few neo-Nazis in my Viking re-enactment days but for God's sake!

I shall add my comments to the above.

I had a really good day. I bought some toys, I played some games and I talked to lots of nice people. I also saw the SS stuff and it looked quite well done. I didn't however see the kids or the souveniers, that would have probably dismayed me.

I DO think there is a place for re-enactors dressed as SS troops, for a start, it gives all those people dressed as Allies someone to shoot at. Also, it provides accurate dress and equipment for television/film, something that gets bitched about constantly if it's got wrong.

I DON'T think that place was at Salute. God knows how many thousands of people were walking past the event today, from all over the world, getting ready for the marathon. I'm sure that many of those people were offended as well as the people at Salute itself.

I don't totally discount John Treadaway's statement, however I'm certainly not convinced by it and nor do I approve. If the decision was made to have them there as an example for modelers and painters, then they should have stopped at the tanks and kit. If it was made to encourage debate, then there should have been Allied re-enactors there at the same time.

All in all, I'm glad I didn't notice the worse aspects of the display (to be honest I ignored it after I'd taken a quick look at the motorbike). It won't stop me attending Salute in the future but I am dissapointed by this decision.

Combatpainter said:
>As I said, don't be offended all that stuff is a myth >anyway :) It never happened

If that was meant as a joke, it was in very poor taste.

I knew this expurgation wouldn't end with the Swatika. Here goes:

I am sure that many got my point, Keeperbear. If many of you get your way-all evidence of the Nazis and the SS and Swastikas will eventually be erased. That said-it will open the way for it to happen again. It doesn't bother me at all. It gives people a good chance to see and touch the memory of that evil bunch. It awakens people's curiosity regarding what the whole thing was about. Many of you guys are way off. Why not ban our hobby from producing SS figures as well. Pretty soon movies about Germany in the WW2 period will be censored. Art from the period will be destroyed or hidden in a basement. Music from the period and newsreel clips will be banned and eventually burned.

You guys need to toughen up your sensitivity and accept that it happened. Don't run away from historical fact and please for the sake of generations to come don't try and obliterate it.

I think the true danger here is not the kids dressed in historical garb but those of you who want to bar them from attending historical events.

Censoring historical events will only insure that those events will not be recognized once the generations that knew about them are long gone. We should be doing the opposite.

We should embrace the re-enactors and all the novelty items they are selling. They are doing future generations a great service. They are keeping alive the memory of a great evil that occurred and with it its philosophy and the suffering and injustice it brought on. Future generations will be more prepared to deal with these types of warped and demented organizations if they should ever come upon them.

My 2. Not a joke at all. Just how I feel about the issue. If you disagree with me that is fine. I for one will do as much as I can to keep history alive and not destroy it so that I can warn as many people as possible as to destruction, hatefulness and suffering that the Nazis brought to this world.

I too was shocked by the SS re-enactors and everyone involved in greenlighting the decision to allow them into the show should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Frankly, I can't begin to know what they were thinking. To say their presence somehow "encourages debate" strikes me as totally bogus and a rather desperate attempt at damage limitation – to follow the logic through, the Warlords should have had a display of re-enactor concentration camp victims at the other end of the hall to balance things up. I don't know what goes through the mind of someone who wants to dress up as a Nazi killer, nor for that matter a show organiser who thinks such people are worth having at a family show.

And in case anyone who wasn't there was wondering, (a) these people were walking about about outside of the hall during lunch, and so were seen by the thousands of London Marathon runners who were signing up today and (b) yes, the Hitler Jugend "re-enactors" were indeed children, not 40-years old as alleged by some on other fora. Towards the end of the show they were sitting at desks underneath a framed photo of Adolf Hitler. Nice.

I can't think of a more negative way of portraying the hobby, other than gunning people down alive – perhaps that's being saved for next year, to "encourage debate" on the real life effects of the battles we simulate. It will take a hell of a lot of spin for those involved to talk their way out of this one. Very, very nasty and certainly a stain on the Warlords' judgment that will take years to dissipate.

Giles Allison

You know, going back and reading the posts, you guys seem so afraid of these children in historical dress. I find it very sad. The great allied soldiers that fought Hitler didn't whine and whimper all day long. I hate to think of how frightened you would have been if you had to go up against the armies of Hitler in the 30's and 40's like my father and uncle did. I know that you too have many that fought Hitler in your families.

Based on all this squeamishness because of some actors, I think I would find most of you hiding under the bed or in the attic if you had to face the real thing. My father wasn't afraid of no damn Nazis and neither was my uncle. They would have bought all their coffee mugs and smashed 'em into bits and return them to them in a box. A better day I suppose, a better day…

Had my say.

Yawn…Let me go back to sleep now.

Was the nature of the presentation sufficiently publicized beforehand?

The description of the display on the Salute website –
link – makes no mention of even what nationality will be displayed.

I agree with the general sentiments. I didn't even see any attempt at 'debate' even if this were a valid sentiment. Which it isn't.

I was considering taking my girlfried to Salute. Great venue. Good show. We're at the stage that we need to have 'that' discussion. Walking up the steps from the carpark the first thing I (and every other visitor to Excel) see is two "SS soldiers" and it goes downhill from there, what with Hitler Youth kids. My girlfried is Polish, and, well, I really can't see how I could get anywhere near explaining why Salute would want people like that at the show. Never mind why any decent person would want to "re-enact" the SS. As others have said, *maybe* if – as the program stated – there was some balanced "WW2 re-enactment" presentation, then it might have been explicable. But I saw no attempt at education or presentation. Just a bunch of clowns in the uniforms of a bunch of murdering scum.

Well – my 75 year old father was helping me on the trade stand today as my wife was too busy giving birth to our second daughter.

I feel that as Dad knew nothing about wargames or wargamers, and being of an age to remember well losing close relatives in WWII, he has a fairly well placed but neutral position on the "uniform chappies".

He though the German pea-camou folks were "a bit odd", the large black-uniformed SS chap evoked a frown. We didn't see the younglings in uniform.

On getting back he said to my mother "there were some really strange folks all dressed up as Nazis with guns and everything – which seemed a bit odd but" (and I think this next comment is relevant in the discussion) "an awful lot of people kept asking them to stand for photographs so I suppose a lot of people there must like that sort of thing".

We didn't see the kids or the stand, the vehicles or the items on sale and thus have no idea what manner of "educational awareness" material was tied to the re-enactors and their display.

I would suggest that that would be significant in making any decision on the "right or wrong" of their attendance and performance.

Combatpainter,

You are obviously an American who had no family killed by the Nazis in Europe. As such, you can never hope to understand the significance of the Nazis and why Nazi "novelty" items should never be sold in a public place. We all know that the Nazi's killed millions of people, but don't want to be reminded of it at a wargaming convention. If you are happy with this happening in the USA then fine, but we don't want or need "in-your-face" reminders of the Third Reich at European wargaming conventions.

Combatpainter said:

>Based on all this squeamishness because of some actors, I >think I would find most of you hiding under the bed or in >the attic if you had to face the real thing.

So, what would you do? Smash up their novelty items and then get arrested? Big talk from someone in another country that did not even see the SS re-enactors. Grow up and stop posting such offensive anti-European drivel.

So, what would you do? Smash up their novelty items and then get arrested? Big talk from someone in another country that did not even see the SS re-enactors. Grow up and stop posting such offensive anti-European drivel.

Oh, I see know. You have to be "European" to understand history. Gotcha! Pal!

Just for information here are the pics of the horrfying display at Salute-

link

You boys need to get out more.

Bill

No, the nature of the presentation was certainly NOT sufficiently publicised beforehand. I too had looked at the Salute site and publicity and had no idea of the nature of the display.

Combatpainter: I see the point that you are trying to make, but I'm afraid that I find it ill-judged. Whilst it is perfectly valid to say that we should never forget the evil perpetrated by the Nazis, I am not at all certain that a wargames show is an appropriate event for such a debate to be thrust upon us, and you are being, to put it lightly, somewhat arrogant to assume that we are not perfectly capable of arguing the case against Nazism or standing up to it -- physically, if needs be -- in the appropriate circumstances. But why should anyone attending a wargames show have to feel it necessary to potentially commit an act of vandalism or violence of the kind you seem to advocate during what should be a family day out?

If I want to have a debate about Nazism, I'll have it in an appropriate forum and at a time of my choosing, not at an event that should be about the celebration of all that is best about the hobby I love, which is wargaming with toy soldiers, and to which many of us invited friends, family and youngsters, not expecting to be confronted with a display which, by its very nature, would obviously be politically controversial.

I am deeply saddened by the evident widespread distaste and anger this display caused to mar what is, in many other respects, the flagship event of the hobby. I hope this mistake is never repeated.

But why should anyone attending a wargames show have to feel it necessary to potentially commit an act of vandalism or violence of the kind you seem to advocate during what should be a family day out?

See that is my point. If you re-read my original comment you will understand it better-

My father wasn't afraid of no damn Nazis and neither was my uncle. They would have bought all their coffee mugs and smashed 'em into bits and return them to them in a box. A better day I suppose, a better day…

Not vandalism if it is your property which you destroy and return it to sender in a nice little box. It is a message that of disaproval that is all.

I wasn't there either, and like Combatpainter I'm not a European, but I have to disagree with him, and say that that inviting this group to particiapte in Salute has the potential to be the biggest "shooting yourself in the foot" that we have ever seen in the hobby … especially if it crops up in the mainstream media, which with the London Marathon, is not beyond the realms of possibility.

And I don't think the photos you are referring to on the Steve Dean Painting forum show what most people are up in arms about – the Hitler Youth kids.

Combatpainter – would you be of the same opinion if they had been, say, KKK re-enactors?

It's not a case that I'm afraid of the children dressed as Hitler Youth, and I'm certainly not afraid of the merchandise.

What I am afraid of is the type of person that thinks it's OK to sell a coffee mug with Adolf Hitlers face on one side, and a Swastika on the other. I mean, firstly, where the hell could you ever use that mug? In the office? I don't think so. But, more fundamentaly it wasn't the fact that they were dressed as SS troops, but that they seemed to be so immersed in the mythos of it. The phrase that springs to mind is revelling in it. A degree of interest that deep is disturbing in anything other than a historical or academic sense.

Furthermore, the argument isn't that we shouldn't remember the evils of the Nazis and I certainly agree that it their acts are something that should never be forgotten and should serve as a warning to all. However, there is a time, a place and a way to remember those acts and to put them into context. This was not it. To have it presented with such gusto and enthusiasm – with Nazi merchandise – did nothing to remind people of what those uniforms represented or the acts that were carried out by people wearing them. It was at best a cheap stunt and I think a very poorly thought-out choice.

I liked the big cannon last year much better.

G.