"Just back from Salute..." Topic

Bought Vendel Persians, Musketeer new Early Saxons,Companion Ancient Spanish. Binders for WI & MW etc etc.

Favourite demonstration game was the Teutonic Knights siege-fantastic scenery.

Seemed to be more people than last year and more women!

Didn't like the rather creepy German re-enactors selling what looked like cds of Nazi songs. We can do without them.

Didn't like the rather creepy German re-enactors selling what looked like cds of Nazi songs. We can do without them.

I agree. The Nazis never existed and neither did the Holocaust, right?

Er no, the point is that we play games with toy soldiers (even toy German tanks) not give the impression of espousing (I hope) the political views of some of the more extreme forces we model. I just felt that these chaps were over the line and created a bad impression to outsiders (they were in SS uniforms some of them in a venue that also held registration for the London marathon-a huge event. Do we really want to see others see people dressed like this coming in and out of our show)

What was the Foundry stand like how were the SYW stuff?
did they confirm a release date?

The Foundry stand was tiny. It had less stuff than the Dave Andrews one. Don't collect SYW so didn't ask. The new Anglo Saxons look nice..

I didn't get to go this year but the first thing my mate mentioned about Salute was the Nazi's.

I'm sure it's the first thing the average passing Mr Bloggs would have noticed also.

Bad call Warlords, this really needs a rethink.

If this lot of wanna be Nazi chuckwits are going to be a regular feature at the show, then I for one, will not attend again.

Are these guys skin head Neo-Nazi's or re-enactors??? If they were men dressed as SS soldiers, with all the historical garb that is a unform and history lesson and they should be thanked. I don't see the problem. If you had a bunch of skin heads jumping around with Swatika tatoos on their foreheads, I could see the problem. So which is it???

As I said, don't be offended all that stuff is a myth anyway :) It never happened.

The re-enactors were from Second Battle Group (secondbattlegroup.co.uk) – who re-enact as the Waffen SS division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. They are clearly a serious bunch and have appeared as TV extras etc. Whilst I think in general it's great to have re-enactors at Salute, and this group had a lot of people and equipment and hence made an impressive display, I agree with those above (legatushedlius, kreighund, etc) who thought this particular choice was a bad call. At the very least, it's bad PR for wargaming and for the show.

SBG's website and leaflets at the show say they are non-political (although they certainly don't say anything anti-Nazi either, even to the extent of a passing mention of "brave soldiers serving an evil regime" or similar) and say they ban "extremists" from membership, but (a) their merchandise was indeed WW2 German song CDs, mugs with pictures of Hitler etc, (b) newcomers / passers-by won't spend time understanding the subtleties of the re-enacting hobby and the historical benefits of it, and (c) I really can't see why anyone would choose to portray the Waffen SS as their re-enactment hobby. The kids dressed as Hitler Youth were particularly disturbing. If I had had more time and been less hung over, I would have talked to one of the re-enactors to ask them to explain themselves. But, please Warlords don't invite them again.

I wonder what the balance of reaction was on the Salute feedback forms?

Overall, Salute was great again – many tempting trade stands (those fantasy orientals previewed here a couple of days back are really great 'in the flesh', great WW2 armour from Chieftain, etc etc) and some excellent display and participation games.

You sure they were SS Re-enactors and not GW sales reps?

Just checking…lol

Ladies and Gents

This is just a short note about Salute. More will be said in the fullness of time, no doubt, about all aspects of the show. As a Salute it was, I think, one of the best, if not THE best we've ever done and I (on behalf of the Warlords) want to say a very big ‘thank you' to all the groups and exhibitors – without exception – that turned up and made the day what it was. We had some excellent games there on the day, including lots of WW2 games.

The trade seemed to have a very good day and numbers through the door – on a very quick first inspection – seemed to be up. All good news all round, I feel.

Of course, we knew that the reenactors this year were going to be a controversial choice. We're not stupid or insensitive to peoples' feelings on the subject. We haven't had WW2 German reenactors at the show since the mid eighties, though we've had other WW2 groups along at various times. Over the last few years we've had ACW, ECW, Roman and Romano British amongst others. We also publicised their presence at the show in advance in the programme (available to all the readers of MiniWargs) and our web site. So we weren't trying to surprise people with this either! We knew that they would raise some hackles. Indeed some of our own members are very uneasy about the Second battle group's involvement. We do understand. What we hope is that it will cause discussion within the hobby about topics and themes for gaming and re-enacting and that we will all gain something from that debate and discussion. Perhaps some of that exchange of ideas is long overdue.

We await the feedback forms from people who actually went to the show and witnessed the group in context. They are expected to be both varied (I heard feedback both ‘for' and ‘against' during the day) and (I dare say) heated.

I firmly believe that – as gamers who play the games we do, set in the periods that we set them in – these are areas that we need to address… or at least discuss.

I hope those who went to the show had a good day!!

John T

Thanks for the up-date! Also, congrats for the very first to post a review of the event. I did some WWII re-enacting, and could not embrace the detachment needed to understand the protrayal of SS. Regular German regiments, maybe. I, too, would have found this in very bad taste, at best, and a terrible PR problem at worst.

Never mind, then. I will simply vote with my wallet. There are some things that simply do not require discussion--just common sense and decency.

Allen

I agree with you Allen. I for one will not attend a Salute show again. I thought it was in extremely bad taste.

Just got back from Salute and very tired, but had a very good show. Trade was brisk and some good games on show and lots of nice people to talk to.
However I have to admit I did not like the presence of the SS re-enactors. Not so much the military aspects of them but the children and women drssed as Hitler Youth was a bit out of order and I dont think should have been at the show. Many people I spoke to felt this was a big ball of wrong!

Steve.

I had a great time, I met Don Featherstone and Duke Seifried. I met some old friends and made some new ones.
I saw Daleks and Nazis, neither were real.
I spent rather too much money.
I'll post a full report of my nefarious doings at Salute along with pictures later.

It was the children dressed as Hitler Youth that got me. The SS reenactors were odd (the pathetic swaggering of a couple of their members would have worried a psychologist). The selling of nazi CDs, Hitler mugs and the likes can only be described as poor taste, but a parent who encourages his kids to dress up as Hitler Youth, play national socialist tunes on the bugle and the drum, that is weird.

The most shocking bit for me was that they were in a mock up of a 1940s room, with pictures of Hitler on the wall, SS posters, HJ material and the likes. I asked one of the kids if his bedroom at homes was like that, he rather blankly said "Yes". He may as well have added "of course", the answer was so matter of fact.

I object to the idea of the swastike being banned, I think this is a dangerous form of denial. But what was at Salute was too much. This should not be allowed.

I must say that the second group of SS reenactors with the Pak 36 by the main entrance were absolutely fine, and I did not object to their presence at all.

Thanks, Steve. I've crossed you off my printout of the Salute 2007 traders' list. I can continue to do business with you.

Allen

John T

Let me say first, an excellent show in virtually every respect -- and an improvement on last year, I feel. It felt more 'solid' as an event, and please pass my thanks on to all the Warlords members who worked so hard to make it a success.

In my personal opinion, the one aspect I would question were the SS re-enactors.

I have some German friends who attended the show who were utterly bemused by their presence. There is a big difference between the portrayal of general Wehrmacht units and the Waffen SS, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to consider their views very carefully.

Henry
Battlegames

Lest anyone be confused:

bemused = bewildered or confused

Definitely not "amused"!

I felt it wouldn't have looked so bad if they were balanced out with some Brit or American forces. The SS can stir up some strong feelings and it probably would have been a better choice to have a Wehrmacht unit depicted.
This will not stop me attending future Salutes.

Tony

As someone who lives in New Zealand, I've always tried to organise my annual trips to Europe to coincide with Salute. Still trying to match that up.

However, I'm very concerned about all this SS talk. Kids dressed as Hitler Youth – can that be confirmed? I certainly won't be attending any show which has these guys on the list. However, I'm not ready to write off Salute yet, if the Organising Committee determine not to invite these guys in future and make an announcement to that effect.

Murray

Yes, for me the whole day was overcast by the pretend nazis. I thought the women in SS uniforms were in dreadful taste, as soon as I saw them I said "Conentration Camp Guards" and who the hell is sick enough to dress up their kids in nazi uniforms? I found it quite appalling and a dreadful advert for wargaming.

Dave

I thought the show was great this year though for me it felt more like a purchasing mission than the usual event does (my choice).

A friend commented on the distasteful Nazi merchandise, and I thought that was a bit off, but generally I have no problem with people dressing up as historical figures of any kind, it's just history. I'm sure we wouldn't be offended if we saw Crusaders, Mongols, WW1 Ottoman soldiers, NKVD etc etc……………all responsible for massacres and warped ideologies.

Purchased lots of 10mm Fantasy.

Well, I had been unhappy that I couldn't go. Now, having heard about the presence of the SS, I'm glad I couldn't go.

It strikes me as an appallingly bad error of judgement on the part of the organisers. Our hobby gets a bad enough press at times, without inviting people dressed as SS, HitlerJugend, etc, to what is probably the highest-profile wargames event in Britain.

I'll definitely think at least twice before planning a trip to the show in future years. I don't want there to be any question that I might be associated, in any way at all, with such groups. Yes, I know they aren't actually Nazis, just people portraying them but, for me at least, even that is one step too close to the abyss.

Phil

Our bad press is mostly about geekdom rather than any kind of political standing.

One of the Starwars Stormtroopers walked up to one young guy in the crowd, poked him in the chest and said 'Are you a geek'? The young guy proceeded with the geekiest answer imagineable………sigh.

Personally I thought all of the Stormtroopers, both Star Wars and SS, were a little too short.

And Jango Fett had clearly been on the doughnuts, there's no way that jet pack was big enough to get him off the ground

As my first Salute as a trader, all in all not a bad day. Yes, I was concerned about the re-enactors, but these ones are not there every year, so don't let it put you off future Salutes.

The display stands were a step up from last year, some real efforts had gone into making them more recognizable, and the display games appeared to have been a step up again too.

What type of reasonable British person would choose to dress their kid as a Hitler Youth? Unbelievable. Putting a group of SS and Wehrmacht "re-enactors" as the centre piece of a UK wargaming show was a terrible decision. I was disgusted by the whole thing. I can understand having people dressed as British or US paras etc, but see no point in promoting the history and uniforms of the most evil armed force to ever grace this planet. The SS were responsible for murdering millions of people, and I don't understand why any self-respecting British person would ever dress in their uniform. The majority of British people still remember the chaos and evil of the Nazis, and many had family members killed by the SS whilst defending Britain from invasion.

All in all, a very, very poor decision by the Salute organisers. I will not be attending the show again.

Finally, a word of advice to the group of SS "re-enactors", do you know that look like a bunch of right-wing Neo-nazis? Do your employers know about you dressing up like this at weekends? I suspect they don't.

Combatpainter said:
>As I said, don't be offended all that stuff is a myth >anyway :) It never happened

If that was meant as a joke, it was in very poor taste.

"I've crossed you off my printout of the Salute 2007 traders' list. I can continue to do business with you."

Now, that's a bit hard. I didn't like the SS re-enactors either and agree it was a very poor choice on the part of the Warlords to invite them, but the traders had absolutely nothing to do with it. For most UK traders, Salute represents their biggest single selling day of the whole year, so they can't afford to not be there.

The Nazi re-enactors thing does sound very strange.

Do SS reenactors have to learn German to play? Or do they just speak English in a funny accent like in 'Allo, 'Allo? And do they have to call each other by Germanic stage names? After all Feldwebel Dave Winterbottom doesn't have quite the right ring to it.

Not an attendee but sounds like a PR disaster. Tsk, Warlords, tsk.

Ladies and Gents

This is just the sort of debate I (for one) think should occur. I'll put my tuppence worth in later on and when I've discussed it with other members of the Club. The Warlords will make a statement as organisers – which will come from them as a whole – rather than me as Club Chair.

What I would say is this, and it's a personal belief. Anyone who knows me, and knows me well, knows what my politics are, and they can be summarised by being ‘diametrically opposed' to the National Socialist party. Fortunately, the Nazi's weren't actually there, of course. What was at the show were a lot of part time actors dressed up as Germans. I suspect that most of us have been to the cinema and actually watched the very people on film (as was mentioned, their screen credits include "Saving Private Ryan"). Film or wargaming show: is their a difference? Let's discuss.

I think that nothing that we do is beyond the need for discussion and debate: certainly none of my ideas are so fixed and so entrenched that I wouldn't be prepared to listen to both sides of an argument, so the idea that any subject is in some way ‘beyond debate' rather saddens me. But that's just a personal opinion.

To put (some) peoples' minds at rest, I would say that there is no chance whatsoever that Second Battle Group will be at Salute next year (unless that come as punters – some of them, at least, are gamers I believe). But that's because we try to keep that sort of thing moving every year so that people can learn something new. A different group or two will undoubtedly be invited next year and – like this year – they will be advertised as coming in advance so that people can chose to attend on the basis of appropriateness, as they see fit.

For the record, I found some of what the 2BG did today very disturbing. Very disturbing indeed. Like watching, say, the film "Downfall" – also a very thought provoking event in my life. Again, let me emphasise that the idea is to make us challenge what we do as gamers whilst – at the same time – allowing those who model and game in that period to have access to uniform details and so forth.

One of the questions we all need to ask ourselves, I suspect, is why the Germans – including the SS element – are so very, very popular with us gamers, alonf with figure collectors, tank modellers, ‘Action-men' dolls and such like. Look at the simple amount of ready painted 20mm vehicles you can buy from Dragon (say) and see how many German ones there are compared to all the rest and just see what I mean! A similar question could be asked as to why are the Southern States so popular with ACW gamers (and reenactors).

I think debate is a healthy thing and not to be shied away from… but that's just a personal opinion, as I said.

Like I also mentioned, they're not going to be there next year. What I would say is that – whichever reenactors are invited – they will be playing (as actors) people that did some pretty nasty things, I'm guessing.

John T

John T's pathetic posturing about wanting to stimulate discussion of the issues is spin doctoring at it's worst. You screwed up, even your own membership objected and you overruled them. There is only one response suitable for the sad s in the SS worship group and that is unbridled ridicule. Just point at them and shout "s". You should then show a suitably robust approach and knock over their sales stand.

"Now, that's a bit hard."

It's a little hard for me, too. As I went down the list, I was reminded that I purchase from a startlingly large number of UK traders. And I regularly converse with a number of them and consider them friends. Steve at LBMS is a good example. But as I knew that his products were featured at the Gripping Beast and Chiltern stands today (and as he had done a show special), I felt I had to add LBMS to those trader listings.

If I had come through the doors at Excel this morning with my family and seen what those posting above have reported, I would have asked immediately for Mr. Treadaway (if I didn't spot him), expressed my displeasure, and left without seeing or buying a thing--regardless of the expense we would have incurred flying over for a holiday. And i would have had the full support of my family members in doing so.

I expect the traders with whom I do business to have a sense of decency and propriety as well as a wish to profit. I understand the financial impact; I have already commented on TMP about Foundry's shoddy treatment of Dave Thomas regarding Salute sales. But although it might be too much to expect a trader to pack up and leave in protest, I would expect a trader to condemn these "exhibitors" both in person to the Warlords today, and to come up on the net and voice their disapproval publicly, as Steve has done.

I am only one person, and as such, don't matter much at all. But I choose not to do business with traders who don't have the gumption to say that such a display is indecent and inappropriate, in an effort to ensure that this does not occur again. Steve Hales has stepped up to the plate, and I applaud him. And it is a great relief to be able to continue to give him my business, as I am a lousy shield painter!

Allen

! You just don't ing get it do you?

It isn't what gamers think that counts here. It's what members of the general public think – I take it that there *were* non-wargamers wandering around in/near the venue? Those of us in the hobby wold probably do a double-take and then realise they were 'just re-enactors' (however tasteless), but for any member of the public passing by THOSE PEOPLE ARE ING NAZIS!!!!!!!! They won't stop and think – they'll simply draw the obvious conclusion.

This hobby has enough of a PR problem as it is, without the biggest show on the calendar making such an ENORMOUS UP. If the press get hold of this the headlines will be 'Nazis gather at Excel" and "Wargamers are Nazis" and that sort of thing – sure as eggs is eggs. And then where will we be? Hounded out of existence in all probability. No-one will want to hire their hall out to the local club for a game night, in case they get accused of being a BNP/NF/Nazi sympathiser.

And besides all that – it's offensive, no more, no less. Say what you like, people dressing up as Nazis appear to be lending the very idea of Nazism some sort of legitimacy, whatever they say to the contrary – indeed, personally, I'd say they were glorifying them. That's quite simply not on.

Phil

My last was aimed at Mr Treadaway, not you Allen!

Firstly let me say that the nazi regieme was loathesome in every way and cannot be defended. However, people make films and write books about the hitler youth etc. I cannot see the difference between that and re-enacting the LAH. There have been many other oppressive regiemes in the history of our planet, and no one calls for them to be excluded. That said, we must always wary of the press that our hobby recieves, and on that count alone, perhaps they were not the most sensible choice of groups to invite. Also may I make the point that other persons on this list have failed to make the distinction between the activities of concentration camp guards and those of a combat unit. This is not to defend the undoubted attrocities of LAH, but to suggest that all combatant nations in WW11 committed some form of attrocity. Personally, If I had children (which I do not ) I would not choose to dress them in the uniform of an extreme right wing organisation, but I see the as a parenting choice rather than something I should pass judgement on.

"My last was aimed at Mr Treadaway, not you Allen!"

Not needed to be said, Phil!

Allen

"Salute SS Re-enactors – bad taste? Yes or No."

Sounds like a perfect TMP Poll, Mr Editor.

"Also may I make the point that other persons on this list have failed to make the distinction between the activities of concentration camp guards and those of a combat unit."

You seem to have bought into an erroneous myth. Personnel were transferred between assignments freely. Despite the efforts of so many to glorify them and sanitize their image, the Waffen SS have no claim to innocence.

Allen

I'll close my input to this debate – for now – with these four points:

'Spin Doctoring' is an interesting point of view. Not mine but interesting, nevertheless.

No, dressing up as a Nazi isn't my choice either.

Yes I for one 'do get it'. That's why the debate is important.

Our membership did not object. We discussed on committee and voted: democracy following discussion. Surely the way forward, I would have thought. Unless one makes dictatorial decisions…

Still: I'm off to bed now. Thanks again to everyone that came.

John T

I don't normally like "me too" posts, but on this occasion I feel obliged to chime in with one…. I must agree whole-heartedly with the objectors here – SS re-enactors are a bit iffy at the best of times, but in what's allegedly the biggest showcase our hobby has, you can add "incredibly stupid" to the usual "distasteful"…. For the record, I missed Salute this year (work commitments) but have attended in the past, and would've planned on doing so in the future. I'll be interested to see the full comment from the organisers, but if it's anything other than a huge "we ed up and we're sorry" I think Salute's off of my fixture list in the future after all….

Dom.

Phil hendry was obviously composing his post at the same time as I was doing mine, and i do agree with his sentiments about the way the hobby is portrayed, although he did convey it in a somewhat more forcefull manner! I do however feel that Mr aecurtis reaction is a little OTT, although he is perfectly at liberty to express his opinion.

Allen,
Thank you for expressing that fact coherently. I'd have just said someone still believing that Good SS/Bad SS tripe was a half wit. Good job I didn't as it would have been a personal attack.

Next years Salute extravaganza, an IRA re-enactment group. No displays or uniforms, they'll just blow up 50 innocent people.

Today was my first Salute and I loved it, except the SS re-enactors. They were the first thing I saw and I just could not believe it, and neither could my friends.

It took all my willpower to not ask these men why they choose to wear those particular disgraceful uniforms and not recreate a unit of Allied soldiers. I'm afraid I would have lost it if I opened my mouth. I honestly thought to myself "my Grandad did not spend 5 years of his life fighting the Nazis (and 3 of them as a POW)" for me to see these fat s dressed up in SS uniforms and selling Nazi souvenirs.

As for them being Nazis, well, I could'nt care less what they say. If it quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck (especially in pea dot cammo), it's most probably a duck. Finally, I wonder what the Excel employees and other passers by thought of us wargamers seeing these guys prancing about in SS uniforms (and the 20 stone panzer ace for God's sake!, like to see him fit down a turret hatch). Complete and utter s.

Phil Hendry said:

"It isn't what gamers think that counts here. It's what members of the general public think – I take it that there *were* non-wargamers wandering around in/near the venue?"

Spot on, that is my point. Literally over ten thousand people were in the same building registering for the London Marathon. The building has a central avenue and people walk up and down to visit the WC and the cafes. The first thing I saw as I approached the section where Salue was was someone in an SS uniform. Terrible PR for the hobby. It really is not the same as seeing someone dressed up as a viking or an ECW pikeman, I'm afraid.

I hadn't been there very long when I saw someone make an official WRITTEN complaint at the Warlords desk. The man there said it was their second complaint so far (this was about 11.15). The very least a responsible organiser should have done is look at the merchandise they were displaying (i have no problem with the vehicles etc) and ask them to remove the items most likely to cause offence. Hitler mugs. No debate needed.

Allen, I am not defending LAH,merely suggesting that it is not wholley fair to single them out for villification. Its difficult to know how any of us would react to living in a totalitarian state. Whilst I would not go along with the "only obeying orders" approach, the sort of society in which you exist does have an impact on behavour.

John T said
Our membership did not object. We discussed on committee and voted:

John T also said
Indeed some of our own members are very uneasy about the Second battle group's involvement.

Make your bloody mind up!

The more I think about this tmore I think it was a PR blunder of the first magnitude by the warlords. If wargamers espouse the views of the majority of people posting on this list, what the must the general public think