"The 40k patch" Topic

I need something to gradually get my old gaming buddies away from 40k. They all recognize that they don't really want to play it anymore, but nobody has any idea what would be a good game to play.

We've all blown so much money on the minis that the fluff is going to have to have opportunities to translate 40k models into its armies.

Any suggestions?

Girlfriends

Maybe use the original Rogue Trader rules…?

Try Shockforce. I've played Shockforce for a long time. The rules are free:
link

I've used all kinds of armies since the rules have an open point system based on the model and weapon stats. My last game was Eldar vs. Space Marines vs. Spugs with Zoat Allies.

There is a 12 step program that will eventually bring you to 6mm Napoleanics.

It's painless, Steps 7-9 are selling your stuff on ebay making hundreds of dollars, and recycling it back into historicals.

Agreeing with Zephyr1 too. The original Rogue Trader is a good suggestion if you want detail and something played with fewer figures and maybe even a scenario plotline.

Shockforce is good; enjoyable and expandable. I wrote a lot of the suggested Optional Rules on the wiki.

5150 may fit well, too. The rules are a delightful change from 40K. Good campaign system!

I like Infinity a good deal as well; just use the special capabilities as a toolbox and ignore the points values. It's not for massive battles, though.

No Limits is spoken well of, also.

Gotta quit cold turkey; it's the only way. I say you and your fellow 40K junkies mail me all your Citadel miniatures. I'll make sure they are properly disposed of. You'll go through withdrawls, of course. You'll look at new minis, wondering if they'd proxy well for IG, or think to yourself "Where are all the skulls" when looking at 15mm Nappies. It'll pass, though.

Now get packing, it's the best for all; I'll send you my mailing address.

5150 is a much deeper game, and alot more fun.

…………….Doug

"They all recognize that they don't really want to play it anymore"
Why don't they want to play it? That reason might be a clue as to what direction to go next…
If they hate the rules, but like the fluff, then some generic system with design rules would let them keep playing with the same figures and background…

I like No Limits. You can build your own armies with it. There are pregeneraterd armies there too. It's free, which doesn't hurt. I agree with Venusboys3, which is why I chose No Limits.

wargamesunlimited.com

JWE2 I see you live in the US. If you live near SE Wisconsin I could run a game for you at my local game store.

5150 and Stargrunt 2 would be my main places to go.

Or my own FAD rules, if you dont want to spend money on one. freewebs.com/weaselfierce

Take a look around freewargamesrules.co.uk there will be a few ideas to try out.

JWE II, Look around for a different set of rules. Most of the Sci-Fi rules out rhere aren't so draconian as 40k when it comes to whose minis you use. My favorite? Starguard of course. It's fast, simple, loads of fun, easily adapted to any period or universe so using your stuff should be easy. Find out more at tin-soldier.com.

I second Rogue Trader- or 2nd ed, or a hybrid of both which is what I have played for years.

If you get into RT nad earlier editions of WH40K, also try brining in elements from Necromunda. That way your characters can progress and develop, rather than just having the same characteristics in each game.

5150 is the best around so far and it allows to use all those figures from GW…

I'd second ( or 4th) 5150

I'd have to vote for Shockforce.. if yoiu can find it on e-bay, Figurehead Quarterly Fall 1999 issue has conversions
for all the 40K factions..

Another alternative would be to play Inquisitor campaigns,
using SHockforce rules – thus staying within the 40K universe.

I'm sure all of those are good choices. I however recommend another game, Defiance: Vital Ground by Majestic 12 Games:
mj12games.com/defiance

A very solid set of rules, very strong in "create your own army" department, can manage multiple scales of minis and battle sizes (as in number of minis on the board) out-of-the-box. And it already has pretty much everything a former Wh40k addict needs to try it available for free on the official site.

My full review on the subject:
link

I like No Limits, 5150, and probably my favorite for sci-fi games – Stargrunt.

5150 is a great chioce…

or defiance, great system once you dig into it with lots of possibilities for army creation….

Fairy Meat! OK, maybe the fluff doesn't translate all that well, except for the Luna Wolves. And the Eldar. Hmm, I might have to try this at a convention some time…

I would recommend trying out any of the fine generic sets described here, although Stargrunt 2 may be too great a shock to the system after 40K. Since they aggresively denigrate point values, I suspect balance takes a while to achieve. I know it takes longer than I could keep a group together for…

I've found that Stargrunt's ground scale vs. figure scale, when using 28mm minis, is even funkier than 40K's. It's possible to have a short range band that isn't as long as the model of an APC. I'd say multiply all distances by 5, and run with it.

Glad somebody brought up Defiance; that's a pretty neat set of rules.

Pardon my stupidity, but what is JWE II?

JWE II is the original poster for this thread.

I know a lot of people like 5150 but I would suggest No Limits over it simply because 5150 is, in my impression, not really well written and in a serious need of editing.

Which is a really shame because it really is an interesting system that has some unique concepts in it. I'd be quite happy to use it if it was given a good working over by a professional editor.

There are a lot of good fluff books out there on World War 2, the Napoleonic Wars, the civil War, etc. There are even some movies!

5150 needs some editing but it's clear enough and it has great stuff. OTOH, No limits has an impressive editing, but a crappy content IMO.
People who complain about 5150 lack of editing and about unclear understanding of the rules usually have read the rules but haven't play them.

"Stargrunt's ground scale vs. figure scale, when using 28mm minis, is even funkier than 40K's"

Stargrunt II works much better with 15mm than with 25mm.

flames of war

>> People who complain about 5150 lack of editing and about unclear understanding of the rules usually have read the rules but haven't play them.

So are you saying that it is well written and well edited or just taking a shot at people making a critical comment about a game you like?

No and no, I'm just stating that 5150 needs to be played to be understood because its mechanics are so different to what players are used.
And yes, I like 5150 a lot.

yeah, Stargrunt benefits a LOT from being played in 15mm. Though if you come from 40K, you'll be used to the somewhat short ranges.

5150 and the other THW games do make a lot more sense once you read it a few times. 5150 is pretty well explained though.

>> I'm just stating that 5150 needs to be played to be understood because its mechanics are so different to what players are used.

They are quite different and when I read through the rulebook the first two times I was really wishing for some better examples and perhaps an understanding from the writer(s) that they had to explore and explain the rules with the reader more

In defence of 5150, I only received the rulebook this Wednesday, but I managed to sneak a game in at salute and it was a blast.

Playing it teaches you the rules quite quickly, and with a few counters added to help the memory, it is a very quick, simple and robust system.

It will definitely replace 40K for me, and I can`t wait to get book 2. One thing I am going to do is play with slightly smaller forces than a normal 1,500 to 2,000pt 40K battle as I think that any rules are too tedious and slow on the 6 x 4 foot table that I have at home.

The good news of this is, that I don`t need so many figures to have a good battle.

To teach myself the rules a bit more. I am going to run a few solo games adding new stuff, once I have learn`t the basics.

My son already want`s to deign a Matrix style game using the rules, so he likes them and he is only 11!

My main concentrated rulesets from now on are going to be:

Sci-fi skirmish: 5150, 40K Combat patrol, & Space Hulk
Sci-fi Battle: 5150, & Hammer`s Slammers in 25mm (no Space marines etc)
Sci-fi war: Hammer`s slammers in 6mm
Sci-fi Space: Full Thrust II or Starmada
Fantasy: A free dungeon crawl set called Dungeoneer.

Buy `em and try `em, 5150 for £15.00 GBP which is only little more than a 40k codex, you can`t go wrong, can you?

Agent Smith

I found 5150 to be well laid out and easy to understand. Three different sections gradually adding to the complexity. Great system. Not like anything I've played before and I wasn't sure at first I would like it but now I'm a convert.
As blacksmith said, you really need to try a couple of games to get the hang of it.

>They are quite different and when I read through the >rulebook the first two times I was really wishing for some >better examples and perhaps an understanding from the >writer(s) that they had to explore and explain the rules >with the reader more

Agreed but trust me, the game explains itself when you play it a couple of times. Also, the author of the rules answer all players' questions in less than 24 hours in the THW yahoo group, a very active, supportive and friendly group BTW.

Yeah know the feeling, hate 40K but felt locked in by the ammount of stuff collected, bit the bullet and brought Combat Zone easy enough to figure out 40K stats for it but haven't relly wanted to, I'm having to much fun with the basic system. All the figures I get from eM-4 on credit for writung articles helps.

Robert

HI

I have done quite a bit of Stargrunt II in the 40k universe and it works perfectly well in 25mm (although the game is better in 15mm). The ranges are no crazier than the original GW ones, in fact Marines can fairly reliably shoot targets out to 30" with bolters.

There are some conversions around but I did my own. If you want to go down that road, give me a yell.

I also heartily recommend Rogue Trader for a true skirmish game – it is fantastic.

You need to think about what you care about. Is it using 40k figures with other rules? OR is the setting itself important to you? OR do you want the same 40k atmosphere?

There are excellent games out there (SG2 may be one) that just don't reflect the 40k atmosphere that some players love.

Do you:

Want to play a sci fi wargame with the figures you have (plenty of the game mentioned on this thread will do very well here and it is quite liberating to farewell the whole GW thing – but it is a big step)

or

Want to play a game set in the 40k universe but "reimagined" in another set of rules (which is the way I went with SG2 and I love it)

or

Want to play 40K with better rules – and who wouldn't – they suck :) (when we're in this mood, we bring out Rogue Trader)

So it depends what you are looking for. I went through the same process midway through 3rd edition and again after a brief flirtation with 4th (3.5?) I am back off the bad stuff and loving SG2 and Rogue Trader.

Unload all your 40K stuff and you'll feel free. You'll have more room for other things.

Granted GW stuff has a crappy resale value.

I'd like to chime in with "Any of the above".

However, I've never understood why people would tout 5150 and SGII as the step up/down from WH40k. After all, Wh40k works in a very specific way (or, rather it doesn't) but the next step up to me is most definately not SGII or 5150.

Why?

Because both games are way too "other" than other systems. Things that you're used to and have taken for granted (Cohesion, roll to hit, roll to damage, roll to save) are all gone in the stated games. And well, if you've just fallen off the WH40k truck, then you shouldn't attempt to get back up in a spaceshuttle. You get another truck.

And to me, then No Limits, VOR, Warzone or any other game which is similar, but different, to WH40k would be the best place to start. And once you feel comfortable in a new system, then you could think about having more realism added to your games.

I own all of the mentioned rules and quite frankly, even though I enjoy each and every one of them, I'd still only recommend No Limits as the new game.
Why? Because it's point based, has a similar – yet different – mechanism than wh40k, and finally – it's free of charge :)

>roll to hit, roll to damage, roll to save
One of the reasons why I don't like WH40k, VOR, Warzone, No Limits, etc :)

If you are tired of 40K, why not recommend something that isnt like 40K, rather than the usual range of "not 40K" systems ?

That's why it is important to know exactly what someone is looking for:

Another sci fi game
Another sci fi 40kish game
or

Another 40k

Jem

Well, wanting to play Warhammer 40.000 but not with Warhammer 40.000 rules would seem to me a lot like wanting to have the cake and eat it too. It's just something that's not going to happen.

That said, if one insists on having "Warhammer 40.000, only better", one might want to look up Aetherverse. It should have enough similarities for Wh40k gamers to feel a little like home, and it's generic so you can port the troops over. Triskele Games that was producing it has folded AFAIK, so there is no official support per se, but the book seems to available here and there still.

"Well, wanting to play Warhammer 40.000 but not with Warhammer 40.000 rules would seem to me a lot like wanting to have the cake and eat it too. It's just something that's not going to happen."

I disagree…
The best thing about 40K has always been the background and the minis… the rules were just something people put up with so they could play with the toys.
Sure, the rules do reflect the background, somewhat… but that sort of thing can be re-created in a number of other systems. Others systems might actually support that background better than 40K does.
I'd say find the rules you like, then the background you like… and meld them together the way you like.
And disregard any company's attempts to get you to think in terms of 'official' or 'tournaments' unless that's what YOU want to do.

No limits seems like a winner. As if we want to keep 40k values we can, or we can ditch it altogether. And it's free.

I've always been scared off of No Limits by the action system. I don't mind the idea of "everyone gets three actions" like Warzone (I think). But having different action points and costs for doing different things (No Limits, No Quarter, Vor) seems like it would be a lot of overhead.

On the other hand, nobody who plays mentions that. So what's that aspect like?

My favorite is Shock Force (The WarEngine). It has some messy parts, but I've had so much fun with it.

andy