"GW forced Battlewagon Bits to desist its web sales..." Topic

Apparently not.

Of course, anyone found guilty of providing a service that GW should be providing but isn't is going to be food for the crows regardless. GW does not share, and success will be dealt with harshly.

(Of course, GW isn't alone in this behavior, as anyone watching WotC's handling of the OGL can tell you.)

Just for the record, GW is a small business. They're just the tallest midget in this hobby.

@Skeptic – Of the 767 GW items for sale on Amazon, one is listed by Battlewagon Bits, the other 766 are listed by Acme Inc.

Guess who GW is going to visit next?

Regards, the Gorb

Given their complex organizational structure, public-listing status, employment, and international dimensions, GW cannot reasonably be classified as a 'small business' …

Oops! I'll delete while I can …

I am confused – why would anyone want to buy GW products from Amazon from an unknown company for a price higher than the full GW retail price???

link

link

etc.

Well, I'm not so good with UK phone numbers, but the number listed appears to be in the Bangor, Wales area.

Country code 44 is UK and 1248 is the area code for Bangor, isn't it?

Regards, the Gorb

Found them:

acmecomputergames.com

Phone number matches the number given on Amazon.

Regards, the Gorb

Why isn't this posted on the Battlewagon board?

TMP link

This all seems mighty shady…
So, are they saying NO ONE can sell GW stuff on the internet, no way, no how… not even Ebay… if they use a picture of it or describe it using any GW terminology?
Seems to me that once you own the damn thing you can take a picture of it and put the picture up wherever you like.
Would it be different if BWB sold all the parts as 'USED' rather than 'NEW'?

That is what they would *like*, sure. Their packaging would need to get a lot larger to include the "user license", though. If a "lease with no option to buy" is the wave of GWs future, I see more "disappointing" sales figures ahead, too.

I would guess it has something to do with retailing their bits as opposed to individuals reselling their possessions.

I have not seen anything about how they aquire their bits. Are they buying from GW or individuals?

The sad thing is that GW is too collectively stupid to realize that they're only hurting themselves. They make the same amount of money if BWB orders their goods or if some other FLGS does. This move only serves to off the hobbyists and alienate customers. Not that that's ever factored into their decisions before…

Seems to me like a backhanded admition on GW's part that their stuff is purposefully packaged in ways that are inconvenient for the consumer (the old 8 hot dogs/6 buns trick).

As posted on the news item thread:

The word from BWB is: Same service, different ordering procedure.

So:

The bits sales are not going away.

The discounted full sets are not going away.

The only thing that is changing is that you can't buy with an online shopping cart…like every other non-GW internet retailer out there. Think Warstore, people.

Let's not throw dirt into BWB's grave quite yet, please?

No, they can't stop you from photographing something you have bought and own, nor can they stop you using those images to sell the item. What they can do however, is refuse to sell to you ever again for breach of their trade terms. That's the threat.

True, however all companies state the right to refuse sales for any reason. The only time that can be disputed is in something like a monopolies investigation.

Selling on the web, below GW prices is bad for the hobby. It might be good for the seller, but it is bad for the hobby. Game shops are good for the hobby as they promote the hobby and the play of the games. Internet shops do not. Internet shops give nothing back to the hobby. They do not host games. They do not run tournaments. They do not have painting lessons. Internet shops force the closure of gamer stores (which is why so many are closing). GW is shutting down Internet shops to increase sales in Game Stores. GW does not want to be primarily an Internet store. If they did, they would sell at a discount. GW wants to sell wholesale to game stores. The closing of Internet shops helps your local game store. If you want to help the hobby, support local game shops.

Well, I think someone should say: "You don't like it, haul me into court and we'll see who wins". The Dr. Mile decision in 1909 pretty much put to rest the idea that manufacturers could tell you how much and at what price you could sell a product they had sold to you. As for IP infringement by publishing a photo, I'm pretty sure it would only infringe if you used their photo of the item. If you take your own photo it isn't infringement. GW depends on the small retailer backing down. Time for someone to get some brass ones.

This is nothing new. GW has been limiting online sales wherever possible.

The most shocking statement in the press release is this:
"We encourage other internet retailers who are doing the same thing, to also voluntarily remove IP protected images from their websites."

#1) Stating we sell GW products such as Box of Skellies $30 USD is not IP infringement. Placing a photo of a box of Skellies that you own and would like to sell is proabably not IP infringement (it might be infringement in the sense that there are more than one copy of the photo – for example the photo is fixed in the user computer RAM and on the webpage that the 2nd user brings up, which is technically two copies).

#2) If I was the lawyer for this retailer, I would never tell them to encourage others to do anything.

Hi Guys,

This is pretty disappointing.

First they put Hobby Workshop put of business.

Then they moved on Neal at The War Store…

And now Battlewagon Bitz?

GW doesn't deserve my business while they keep edging anyone but their Internet and Mail Order businesses out of business.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Should a lawyer tell the truth?

I'm pretty sure that isn't a necessary qualification, is it?

I jest, I jest…

"Nothing on your site can be construed as a violation of IP. If this were the case, then GW would have to go after those fan sites with galleries of their converted and/or painted figures."

Actually, GW has the choice to go after whoever they want. Since they are not the government, they are not obliged to follow the equal protections clause.

So are they saying you can't have pictures of things made by them (GW) but owned and painted by you or are they saying you cannnot IDENTIFY them as such (not invoke the name of Games Workshop or their GW 'trademark')? Would it suit them better if you put up the photos of YOUR MINIATURES with a caption like, "Here are some miniatures I bought and painted, I haven't got any idea at all who made them."

For me, this has long gone the route of Excelsior Entertainment… I no longer care. Neither about what GW does and what their retailers allow the company impose on them for the "good of the hobby". Nor about GW or the defenses some poeple make about their arbitrary policy.

What I have to say refers to England and Wales.

Using a photo from GW's web site or scanned from WD/GW book is illegal and does breach copyright. So GW are fully justifiable in asking internet traders to remove such images.

If you run an online shop in England/Wales then you are perfectly within your rights to take your own photo of the product and use that on the web site

Howver, one is not allowed to use GW models to sell another product. Sorry Justin, but you can't have pics of Bretonnians with your decals on them, even though you may have painted them yourself.

GW cannot refuse to supply online only retailers in England/Wales. EU regulations prevent GW from selecting who they want to supply.

What GW can do is offer slightly different terms. Online retailers must pay with their orders, real shops can have up to 30 days credit AND 2% discount if they settle within 7 days. How can they justify the difference? It is to do with credit risks; essentially a real shop has more assets than an online only retailer. But the trade terms can't be too different, hence GW have the same minimum orders for online and real shops.

Personally I agree with the basic GW argument that online only shops harm the wargaming hobby. These bedroom based enterprises that only sell GW items at 10 – 25% off RRP are not doing anything for the hobby long term. So companies such as Maelstrom Games and NU Gaming will never get my business and I would prefer if the law allowed GW not to supply these enterprises.

Despite being a discounter I actually have a lot of sympathy for BW Bits. Why? Well, because they are doing something different and offering a service that GW do not. The core of the 'GW Hobby' is modelling and BW Bits is great for us modellers.

So mixed feeling from me about the spoecific issues raised!

Phil

All this is starting to sound like Kevin Sembieda's mania for lawsuits over anyone so much as mentioning a Palladium product.

I still can't see how, if you bought and own and painted the minis yourself, GW has any rights to control your use of those miniatures! Even to the point of including them in photos of products you made/sell to impart scale information, especially if you didn't identify them in any way.

"I still can't see how, if you bought and own and painted the minis yourself, GW has any rights to control your use of those miniatures! Even to the point of including them in photos of products you made/sell to impart scale information, especially if you didn't identify them in any way."

There's a difference between taking a photo of a box top or contents of a box set and posting it on the web and taking a photo of your completed model and posting it on the web.

I haven't heard of GW going after people posting pictures of models on the web, which would be the intended use of the product.

Where it falls inbetween is in Justin's case, where it shows beautifully painted GW miniatures, using his own transfer designs, but in this case he also sells them on a website. Here you have intended use of the product mixed with commercial sales.

Say what you will about GW being good for gaming but they only care about The Hobby TM- not the hobby. And they could care two squirts less for the local stores – they care about the local GW store first and foremost. They tried near every dirty trick in the book to screw the local stores when they came to town with their own stores.

Actually, GW has the choice to go after whoever they want. Since they are not the government, they are not obliged to follow the equal protections clause.

That said, isn't there something under US law that an IP holder must actively protect it, or lose it?

Gross simplification here, I know…

I'm terribly sorry…no, no I'm not.

I'll buy GW at the cheapest legal prices I can find, because I'm all about maximizing the utility of my limited recreational dollars.

Just like GW is all about the maximization of their profits.

That's neither excuse nor condemnation; just simple economics.

But what about my local gaming store?

They don't hold painting seminars when I can attend, they don't hold games I want to play, they don't provide any service I can't get online. Conversion advice? Work In Progress, or Advanced Tau Tactica. Painting examples and advice? CMON. New products and everything else? TMP.

My local stores don't all concentrate on GW/Privateer/CCGs and seem to have a 'tournament' mentality about every game that gets played in the store.
Adding to that, they don't sell much outside of those lines… a little bit of Reaper at one of them.
I'm not going to find any surprises on their shelves… and I'm REALLY not interested in 'tournament' anything… I just want a friendly game… maybe a game demo or a painting tutorial… some good conversation that rises above min/maxing your army for the &%*#! 'tournament'!!!

I just might as well shop online… heck, just reading through Brookhurst's site feels better than shopping in my local stores.

It is no surprise that I have not stocked masses of GW since 1985 and none at all since about 1990. I have stated that in prior threads.

I am not surprised that GW does not allow official photos from box covers to be listed on the net. Use of those could be viewed as official sites. However, the use of individually painted privately owned, casting should not be regulated.

Are the paint scheme from the required GW guide for tournament use trademarked,thus limiting their use? If so this is a lot of money for trademarking fees and costs.

Regardless, I do not stock GW for these and other GW company policies.

"Are the paint scheme from the required GW guide for tournament use trademarked,thus limiting their use? If so this is a lot of money for trademarking fees and costs."

These are copyrights, which cost nothing to obtain, but do cost money to enforce.

Nycjadie,I thought that it cost $20 USD for a copyright. Are photo copyrights free or different in the UK?

You know… if I was a GW lawyer hungry for more cash, I'd see the secondary market on Bartertown as a threat to sales of new product, and people there *are* using GW's IP in the form of names, etc. Time to fire off a cease-and-desist letter…

Rudy:
I don't know about the U.K., but a copyright in the U.S. is valid at the point of creation. Of course, federal registration makes it much easier to prove you own it.

My posts are disappearing. I posted here after Rudy and it's gone!

I'm still not able to post.

My posts are disappearing!

I can see you.

Some how I'm not suprized by all of this. Even the Disney Corp protects it's IP fiercely, however the rule is if you take the picture yourself or something to that effect then they're fine. Sounds like GW doesn't even like that.

I don't get it why people are still buying into them after all the trash they pull? Is it ignorance on the part of the new people to the hobby? More meat for the grinder.

Putting aside the legal argument for a moment, it seems to me that GW want their cake and eat it as well.

They after all are the sole manufacturers of their minis, and the on-line independants must be getting their stocks from them in the first place. No doubt GW are quite happy to make the trade sales then, so it`s a tad hypocritical to try to prevent those same retailers from selling their products on to us, the great unwashed, because the independants compete with GW`s online stores by pricing more competetively.

Surely what GW is doing is in direct opposition to the basics of a free market economy?

Hoardes, I`m not sure what UK legislation you`re looking at so far as GW not being able to pick and choose who they sell to. Surely as a business to business transaction GW can put their requirements in the Terms and Conditions and it`s up to the buyer to then decide to enter into contract with them?

What they really seem to be up to is frightening these folks with attorneys and a lawsuit they know they will lose but will bankrupt the folks trying to defend against it.

As an aside on this, the University of Illinois recently got rid of Chief Illiniwek (white kid dressed in Sioux warchief regalia obtained from the Sioux and dancing at halftime for football and basketball games, now deemed to be "hostile and offensive by the NCAA with sanctions against hosting NCAA tournaments until he is gone). They have also ordered all references to Indians to be removed including a rather handsome circular logo of a eagle feathered Indian chief with a breastplate. One of the better graphic designs I have seen.

Now the kicker. The UofI purchased the logo from a graphics artist in 1980(?) for $210.00. They have decided to retire the logo but keep the rights to it. The artist is threatening a lawsuit to get it back. His attorney claims he has a "moral and legal right to it". Just how they figure that he has a right to it is beyond me since he was paid for it. I don't think the suit will go anywhere. Now reverse the position with the University selling the logo to the artist then demanding he use it they way they want and threatening a lawsuit. If the guy can't afford a lawyer it won't matter if they don't have a leg to stand on, the guy will probably cave.

I'm afraid my response to GW's lawyers would be, "Sue me. I'll counter sue. Let's see who wins." Then a quick complaint to my state Attorney General about restraint of trade as well as one to the Department of Commerce perhaps.

Eight hotdogs, six buns.
That one goes down in the archives. Thankyou…

easy answer, lets all just boycott all GW products worldwide!

then see how long their IP suits contunue.

G

I don't think GW is very relevant anymore. After reading this thread, I went and looked around. I can only find a couple people who even use GW. There is one GW store in one of the malls, but none of the FLGS's seems to carry any G. If they do it seems to be a 5 year old box on the shelf. It seems to me that predictions are true and GW has pretty much alienated its fan base and they have mostly moved on. At least up here.

Now I am pretty sure there are still areas with strong support for GW, but I don't see the all encompassing presence they used to have.

they are still the biggest miniatures company out there but their heyday is definitely over. their stock is down significantly in the past 3 years (as are their profits according to their shareholder published data) and almost no one plays their games at my local store in the chicago burbs. this could be due to a battlebunker opening up 15 miles away or it could be due to the above reasons.

I'm not sure however that selling new product on in depackaged form (like Battlewagon) can't be stopped by the manufacturer even in the UK – otherwise 6 packs of pepsi with "cannot be sold separately" would have been stopped also.

And I rarely buy miniatures at stores for the same reason I wouldn't use most small local bookstores for books – the selection typically isn't as good as I'd like and I don't need to see the goods up close in blisters before I buy. Boardgames I always buy from stores. I don't really care about the painting lessons. I suspect most GW sales in the UK are to people going into stores though to buy for their kids.