"Re-uniting Ireland under Nazi rule" Topic

OK – this is one for a large scale game (2cm=1km, 1 unit = 1 battalion+). As I live in N. Ireland I have some vague interest in it: During WW2 there were 2 distinct Nazi plans to invade Northern Ireland. One was Operation Kathleen, proposed by the IRA to the Germans in 1940 and rejected as being the work of fantasists. The other was Operation Green (yes – same name as the proposed invasion of Czechoslovakia) which was a German idea involving invading both the Republic and NI, as a diversion to operation Sealion, the invasion of Britain.

So, I am looking at wargaming the invasion of NI with an operational scale rule system (probably Assault Gun), as Northern Irealand at 2cm to 1km fits on a decent table.

Problem is, while I can get Irish forces and, hypothetically, German forces, I am unsure exactly what British forces were available in NI at the time (1940) and what they could afford to send without risking Britain.

Irish forces: Depends on scenario, but most realistically I'd assume that Ireland has gone fascist (the Blue-shirts) and has 2-4 divisions, or which one is good, 2 are crap and one has to remain in Ireland for security. There would be a few battalions of IRA in NI as well. The Germans can provide 2 infantry divisions (by land, landed in friendly Irish ports secretly, including a battalion or two of armour/Armoured cars) and half a division by air (half paras, half air-landed) taking NI air bases around Aldergrove/Lisburn. Would also be some German planes.

Suggestions are very welcome.

Where ya based Kerpob?

If you're ever in Dublin drop in for a game… Gamers are a bit thin on the ground down here.

Interesting idea for a game. Let us know how it turns out.

Did you came from the Castle???

Interesting idea for a game…

Intertersting idea and subject, here's some background I found (probably for the benefit of others):

link

I suspect that at least half of the Irish population would have resisted occupation by Nazi forces. I think also that republicans and the fascist blue shirts had issues from civil war times. I wonder what would have happened to the Irish soldiers fighting for the British, and also the hundreds of thousands of Irish immigrant workers aiding the war effort? I just think that the whole situation would be far from black and white, but perhaps the chaos would have good enough for the Nazi's! Who knows, I find Irish history mind bindingly complex once you dig a little.

I recognise your handle from the Table Top North Forums, let me know how you get on.

Anyway that wasn't the question you asked. I have no idea :-)

Great. My Osprey on the Irish Self-Defense Forces is on Campus, and I'm at home. I'll come back on this one…

In the mean time, historically between the wars, the ISDF wore a forest green uniform of British cut with "red" leather equipment and a black Stalhelm. Head dress ranged from wedges to Irish Glengarries (Tam O' Shanters for Scots).

During "The Emergency" (Ireland's name for WWII), Ireland received help from the UK, and uniforms during that time were British surplus.

As for ranking system, that's a nightmare, since they changed it every few years since the ICW…

It's a great idea for a interesting scenario, i would imagine that the landing's would have taken place in Bantry Bay or somewhere on the southern coast. Supplying two divisions would have been utterly immpossible with the RN swiftly moving heavy units to interdict the route.

But could Britain have shifted forces in a timely fashion accross to Ireland? there were certainly a lot of units reequipping, but I imagine that it would have been a "Pile onto the ferrys and evrythings in complete chaos" type of operation.

Driving up from the south, the Germans would have been mostly out of air support range initially whilst the landing grounds would be in range of unescorted Blenheims and Whitleys.Who would have again been in range of ME110's, giving them their fighter role back.

Im well interested in how this turns out. Please keep us posted! By the way, what rules will you be using?

If the scenario were set in 1940 or 1941 it could go hard on the Brits. After that, Britain might not have to shift troops at all. The Allied military presence in Northern Ireland during WWII was quite large and included a number of American units – through 1942 I believe there were more Americans than Brits there (XV Corps, which included the 1st Armored Division and at least two infantry divisions).

LT

I have tinkered with this idea myself. I would use what ever British troops you can that are in the uniform/equipped for the year you are going to start up in.

One way to go about it is to create your own British orbat set around regiments that never actually existed rather than using existing orbats such as the XV Corps mentioned above.

This way you don't have to worry about stripping Britain of troops.

Tailor the setting to how you want to do it for max. return on effort and fun.

From Joslen, Orders of battle
11th Sept 1940 located in NI were the 61st Division and the 53rd Division with the 148th Ind Brigade.

61st was a second Line territorial Division taht seemed to be at full troop strength but I cannot anser for equipment.
Churchill shows them at probably about 2/3rds artillefry strength, no 2prs, about 80% Bren gun carriers, about 40% Boyes and about 80% mortars
53rd was about full strength in troops, rifles and Brens, about 60% in artillery, 50% in 2prs, about 75% in Bren carriers, about 40% in Boyes and at full strength in mortars.
148th Brigade had a Coy of MG bn, as well as a Bde atk coy and the usual three bns of infantry, Unfortunately I cannot fin equipment levels.
Hope this helps.

Bob

Depends when in 1940 you are looking at. By September 1940, which was the earliest the Germans could realistically organise and mount Sealion plus any associated diversionary actions, where were 25 divisions available for the defence of the UK, although many of them were only partially equipped.

Personally I'd tailor the avalable British forces to make it an interesting game, say with a one division garrison in NI plus a corps worth of seaborne reinforcements supported by a brigade of tanks.

I'd also have a serious look at the logistic aspects, particularly German air supply capability, the lenghty seaborne routes would interdicted almost immediately by the RN, even if they didn't intercept the initial landings. If the south was friendly, the Germans requirements for POL, fodder and food could be met from local supplies, main problem would be ammo, especially artillery ammo and spare parts. With friendly airfields they could fly some stuff in but it wuld be a major effort.

The scenario would need some form of landing ships further west than Calais (the idea of barges and German light vessels trying a channel "dash" would appeal to kamikaze gamers only). How do they get there (the Rhine links to the coast allowed a build-up in the Calais – Holand area)?

So could it be a raid? To drop specialist troops and support for (say) remnents of the Blue Shirts/ IRA?
It wouldn't take much to destabalise the Eire government. Who would face the dilemma of what to do about British help – get it and increase the opposition OR avoid it and lose!

At a slightly lower level, there where three armoured rail cars in operation by the local Home Guard. I say armoured, apparently they were box cars with petrol engines driving one of the axels by chain, which had a tendency to slip off. Might be god for a small scale skirmish between Paratroops/5th Column and Home Guard. I'd check my source but its now boxed up ready for an impending move (I hope!)

Don't forget that the RUC would have been armed and I believe they did provide some Home guard units.

I posted detail of the scenario and some gibberish about Humbolt came up. Is this a known posting problem?

Yes. It's known as "The Bug". We think it happens when two people post at the same exact time.

Well, I'll try again…

Here is the historical background:

After the Irish Civil war, there were 2 factions, the winning one (Michael Collins, who died) and the losing one (Eamon De Valera). After a while De Valera's faction came to power. In the meantime, former veterans had formed the Armed Comrades Association (ACA) that were closely associated with the Blue Shirts, a quasi-paramilitary organisation run by Eoin O'Duffy to protect their political representatives from attacks by De Valera's men (the Green Shirts – they got first dibs on the shirt colour!)

By 1933, the Blueshirts numbered over 100,000 and were preparing for a giant rally in Dublin, when De Valera banned it. Next year he banned the ACA and the factions democratised with De Valera forming Fianna Fail (still in power today) and the Blueshirts/ACA forming Fianna Gael (still the main opposition today). Eoin O'Duffy exited politics and went on to lead an Irish contingent fighting FOR Franco in the Spanish Civil war.

My scenario suggests that O'Duffy did not so much hold a rally in Dublin in 1933 but a putsch. De Valera is killed and O'Duffy plus followers take over power, with O'Duffy as president for life. O'Duffy then gets drawn into the Axis orbit – easy enough as they are as anti-British as he is.

In 1940, he is ready. When Kurt Student suggests a plan to para-drop troops into Northern Ireland as a preparation to Sealion, Von Ribbentrop finds that O'Duffy is keen to join in and achieve the dream of re-uniting Ireland. In September 1940 German troops surrepticiously land in Cobh. A few weeks later, Junkers are heard overhead as Irish and German columns begin to cross the border….

The British forces are 61st and 53rd infantry divisions, with 148th brigade and half a dozen battalion size territorial units based around the RUC. Air support is negligible, but two division in GHQ reserve that might be released are the 1st armoured division and 1st Canadian Division. Logistically, the British will be well supplied if they can keep the 3 main ports (Londonderry, Larne and Belfast) operational.

The Germans drop part of 7th airborne division (3 regiments) and then land a further one regiment on the captured airfields. Two German divisions approaching by land are 22nd Luftlands division and 2nd Gebirgsdivision. There are no more German reinforcements possible.

The Irish can provide the 2nd "Spearhead" division and a further two brigades, other units are tied down defending ports and quelling internal difficulties. There is also the possibility of 3-6 weak IRA battalions providing support inside Northern Ireland. Ireland has no airforce, but the Germans have loaned some planes – these few practically beyond the Irish infrastructure's ability to support. The Irish can barely supply their own forces and the operation must meet quick success (1-2 weeks) before supply issues will doom the campaign.