"Question re US Recon units in WWII ('43 - '45)" Topic

Not sure if this is the right board to ask TO&E questions, but I'm not sure how these were organised – I thought I had some certainty but I've read some different information that makes me less sure. I know in the infantry they were companies but in the armoured divisions they (sometimes at least) they retained cavalry terminology and used troops instead of companies. I'm not sure if this was more that just a naming convention.

I had read that platoons had a combination of 2 M20 scout cars and 4 M8 armoured cars but I have seen some suggestions that they had only M8s.

Also I've never been entirely certain about how the (jeep mounted?) infantry fit into this. They seem to be in the same platoons with the ACs but I'm not certain. Some seem to have had .30 cal Machineguns and there were some bazookas.

Can someone point me to a (preferably online) TO&E that clarifies how these units were organised, from the lowest level up if possible?

Thanks,
John

Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron, Mechanized July 1944

4 Reconnaissance Troops (each)

Troop Headquarters
…

3 Reconnaissance Platoons each

Armoured Car Section
Officers Second lieutenant platoon leader (P)
NCOs Sergeant platoon (C), sergeant car commander (C), 3 driver armoured car (C), 3 operator radio and assistant driver (C), 3 operator radio and gunner (C)
Vehicles 3 armoured car M8

Scout Section
NCOs Sergeant section leader (R), 2 corporal squad leaders (R)
Enlisted 6 driver truck light (SMG), 6 gunner mortar (C), 2 riflemen, radio operators (R)
3 mortar 60mm
Vehicles 6 trucks 1⁄4ton

Thanks very much, that's really helpful. So each platoon has:
1 Armoured Car section with 3 armoured cars.
1 Scout section with 6 jeeps, 3 60mm mortars.

I came across this PDF link which also mentions the use of .30cal machine-guns and bazookas (rocket launchers).

Three of the jeeps in scout section mounted .30 cal MGs on pintle mounts in the rear. These could be fired from the jeep, or dismounted if necessary (e.g. on a defensive mission).

The other three jeeps carried 60 mm mortars. These would need to be dismounted to be fired, which would take some time.

In the field, the platoon could split into three teams, each comprising of one armoured car and two jeeps (one with MG, the other carrying mortar).

Troop HQ, maintenance and AM&S sections, which would typically be kept in the rear, may have had a few bazookas allocated to be carried in their trucks (would need to check an official TOE to be sure). I haven't heard of any bazookas allocated to the jeeps.

I came across this PDF link which also mentions the use of .30cal machine-guns and bazookas (rocket launchers).

Jeep-Mounted Quad Bazooka

link

I presume those bazookas on the MG mounts were field improvisations, rather than factory produced. In any case, better pay some attention to the backblast.

Predecessor of the Ontos?

link

Jim

Any US troops in Europe that had been in combat any length of time would have 'acquired' some non TOE equipment, up to a alleged troop of Sherman tanks.

If I drove around a corner and faced an enemy AFV, I might be glad to have two bazookas, as a fixed mount, if ready loaded. Better than nothing.

Someone clearly thought so, more experienced than most of us in warfare in NW Europe.

But how daft. Bale out with two bog standard Bazooka and either split or (only if the AFVs are unescorted) stalk them, outflank them and then fire. Personally, I would race back and report what I saw…and pick up a new jeep and go home to see my great grandchildren.

I believe the MG scout jeeps originally had .50 MGs, but it was decided that these were a bit too much for a jeep to handle, and so .30 MGs were later substituted.

FM 2-7 also gives some organisation info on the Platoon and Troop.

link

There was a difference in nomenclature for Cavalry units, with the Squadron equating a Battalion, and the Troop equating a Company. Troops were then divided into Platoons and then Squads.

Gary

The numbers of troops were platoon compared to vehicles does match the classic three per Jeep. Even in my 1970s experience we had three men per track. Some troops would do double duty. I will agree with Don Lowery in that the .50 cal is too heavy. In my tests we compared .50 with M60s. The .50 could cause the Jeep to turn over, especially if tracking a target (soft target or plane).

Realization, field is often different than paper ToE. Check out when damaged, mechanical break downs, Lost M8 and M20. A variety of tracks were used as substitute replacements. Half tracks, White scout cars (especially in Africa and Sicily). A temporary situation but happened.

Griefbringer wrote:
"The other three jeeps carried 60 mm mortars. These would need to be dismounted to be fired, which would take some time.

Troop HQ, maintenance and AM&S sections, which would typically be kept in the rear, may have had a few bazookas allocated to be carried in their trucks (would need to check an official TOE to be sure). I haven't heard of any bazookas allocated to the jeeps."

The link I posted has this to say about the mortars:
"The mortar can be fired from the 1⁄4-ton truck or from the ground", which I found interesting.

And this about bazookas, which is why I thought they might be more immediately available:
"f. Rocket launcher. Rocket launchers are provided for antitank protection. They 'are effective also against buildings, machine-gun emplacements, and embrasures: The launcher has a relatively low rate of fire and a distinctive flash on discharge. It is inaccurate at ranges over 300 yards. It is a powerful supporting weapon at short ranges."

Cheers,
John

I presume enterprising platoon might have managed to stick a bazooka in one of their jeeps, but it takes quite some space – and there is only so much of that in a jeep, especially once you stick in three crew members, mortar or MG, ammo, extra fuel, personal kit and whatever else the crew thought necessary to carry with them.

As for the earlier 1942-1943 organisations that may have been encountered in North Africa and Sicily, I found the following in Nafziger collection:

link
link
link

Each of the three halftracks in the AM&S section seems to have been issued a bazooka. As the AM&S section was expected to stay out of action, these would be mainly for self-defense in case the section would find itself in trouble in case of a sudden enemy armoured breakthrough (US units had a lot of bazookas issued to the rear echelon units, which could conveniently stow them somewhere in their vehicles – usually trucks of various sorts).

As for the reconnaissance platoons, their main anti-tank armament was the 37 mm gun in M8 armored cars, once these became available. This would be capable of penetrating light armoured vehicles, though against better armoured vehicles the platoon would do better to rely on their speed to get out of the way (the jeeps and armoured cars were rather quick on the road).

I don't understand why 60mm mtr are assigned to a recon unit. I would think they would be with the HQ. can someone explain how light mortars help out with a recon assignment?
thanks

And here is the platoon modelled in 6mm (1/285):

With Mortars ready to go:

The same TO&E was in place for 1942/43 Tunisia and Sicily compaigns, although the scout cars used were M3s rather than the later M8s.

Even with the M8s, the armored cav / mech recon units had a flexible doctrine, inclulding dismounting from jeeps and armored/scout cars for patrolling and light infantry combat work:

… as illustrated in field manual:

For wargaming purposes they are an interesting formation -- pretty complicated, but highly flexible … pretty fragile but highly mobile with lots of firepower.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

There are some examples given of the use of 60-mm mortars in the Troop manual, FM 2-20 -

link

Gary

Yes. That's the document I posted.