"15mm WWII Soviet 50mm Mortar Teams from Peter Pig" Topic

Not really any such thing as "wrong color" as distinct from "wrong shade of the color". That's why it's called the visible *spectrum*. "Colors" are just artificial divisions of ranges of wavelength.

Ah, the heck with this: I think I'm going to head up to Vegas and see Blue Man Group:

picture

But as you said earlier…

…there was certainly variation in paint shades, as well as subsequent weathering.

Now, if someone thinks they've cornered the perfect color for Soviet helmets, and wants to write a TMP Workbench article, I'd be glad to publish it.

Well, since it seems you'd rather have 28mm Colonials done than 15mm WWII, I can't help, I guess…

This is a previous article Allen was mentioning and the one I am talking about:
TMP link
There were some big differences in shades and hues in uniforms and colours in WWII, depending on batch, usage, age, etc. Even more with Soviet kit. One has to allow for that.
The article was written for begginers, not pros. It was intended as a quick way to paint piles of lead.
And I would not mind being told that the colour I chose is not the best/closest to the subject at hand and suggesting a better alternative; I mind some self appointed expert saying that my paintjob is crap because the colour used is not what he would have chosen.

Well, as Beowulf has chosen to post this up here as well as PMing it verbatim to me, I think I can reply here.

I think you need to be more objective.

As far as I can see, Allen didn't comment in either the previous showcase article, nor the preceeding workbench article. In fact his only reference to the items you painted was to comment that they had "inexplicably bright green helmets and weapons" – hardly saying "my paintjob is crap because the colour used is not what he would have chosen". The other comments related to you not removing the flash lines (from experience, flash lines which are generally not visible to the naked eye unless they catch the light just right mysteriously become massive steps when photographed!)

As it appears that Beowulf painted the original figures, but Old Guard painted the current figures (but look identical in finish), I'm at a slight loss as to Beowulf's link to Old Guard. I'm equally at a loss why he is arguing the colour when he didn't paint the figures… Bill, are you sure it was Old Guard who painted these??

I have visited several museums in both Ukraine and Russia. Even accounting for fade and variation in paint, I have never seen a 'Soviet green' so far towards the blue end of the spectrum. In fact almost anything faded goes a very distinct olive-yellow!

As you may (or may not) be aware, my wife is from Ukraine so I tend to have a natural defensive stance towards Ukrainian companies. The gentleman who owns Old Guard is also a customer. The quality of painting on their gallery pages is far superior to the painting shown here. I have every reason to want to defend Old Guard here. However even accounting for the close up photography (which always makes things look far worse than they are) these are far below their normal quality and i would be somewhat disappointed if I had paid for that service.

Either the green is wrong, or the photography is wrong. If yours were also this blue Beowulf (or you painted these), then perhaps you ought to rethink your Soviet colour selection.

If I wished to be critical of Beowulf's item--I'm mainly simply perplexed by the color issue in *both* items--it would be based on the miniature weapon parts being painted which would not be painted in real life: in that case the Maxim receiver, etc., just as with the mortar from the other item.

If Napoleonic French figures were posted on TMP with muskets, barrels, and bayonets all mahogany brown (or pick your favorite shade--I don't care--this is all getting too weird), I think someone might take issue.

If one were propounding a quick way for "begginers" to paint piles of lead, perhaps one might forego making distinctions between details. But then why not just spray the whole bunch with khaki (again, pick your favorite shade); that way, one eliminates the need to select a green at all!

But that's just musing; I have foresworn criticism.

Allen

@ GeoffQRF
No link to Old Guard whatsoever, and I did paint the HMGs, not the Mortars.
I used to be a member of IPMS. I painted 1/35 tanks and figures, and I've heard enough discussions about "the Right Colour" to last a lifetime. Did I overreact? Maybe. But I've seen a lot of new modelers/gamers turn away from painting/gaming because of negative criticisms. The way I see it, even a badly painted or inaccurate miniature is better than an unpainted one. With time and practice (and maybe some coaching), the new painter will improve. That won't happen if he/she loses heart and never tries again.

No link to Old Guard whatsoever, and I did paint the HMGs, not the Mortars

So these are by Old Guard: TMP link
And these are by you: TMP link

You can see why one might be confused. Well, hopefully you can, but as it appears to be only me and Allen who can see that the green is wrong, or at the very least showing up wrong, maybe that is in question.

Bill, what instructions were Old Guard given? Did you send them Beowulf's workbench article as reference? Are the items much less blue in reality, and the photography/colour balance software has gone haywire?

(Ps, I'm a graphic designer with over 20 years experience in photography, colour retouching and photo editing, I find it unlikely that this is a hue shift issue)

I painted 1/35 tanks and figures, and I've heard enough discussions about "the Right Colour" to last a lifetime

So you ought to know better when teaching beginners to use the right colours, the benefits of even rudimentary research into the subject and how to paint the right bits.

If you're going to teach (as I would understand a workbench item is intended to do), there seems something very wrong in teaching it wrong and hoping they will pick up and correct it later. What you will end up with is disappointed and disillusioned gamers when someone (inevitably) points it out to them at a club game later… It also undermines the value of the workbench.

If it's a showcase item, it really should be much better.

Colour IS important otherwise, as Allen rightly points out, spray the Germans grey, the Russians green and the Brits khaki, job done.

@Geoff QRF
I do not object to being corrected; I have made plenty of painting mistakes at one point or another. Sometimes someone mentions it, and may even suggest a better solution.I am usually grateful for the input.
Again, I do object to negative comments.

I am not defending my (poor) choice of green for the helmets and Maxims. A much more productive comment would be something like "Gee, the green you used seems wrong to me. A better choice would have been this colour".

You and aecurtis seem to think that if a miniature is not painted to the best standard, it is better not to paint it. It is perfectly acceptable for you, which have been modellers for several years. But a lot of newcomers are discouraged by this attitude. I've seen countless armies painted to very low standards, or partially painted. I know, I managed a hobby shop for 9 years. I taught countless customers how to improve and get decent results with quick and easy techniques. And once they got good results, they would keep painting, and getting better at it. I got some very good tips from a few of them later on!

And at the local IPMS I saw the opposite: a few Paint Gurus who would criticize to death a newcomer's first or second model, without offering any advice. Not surprisingly, the new guy would never come back.

Yours is an historians approach; I think that painting should be, more than anything, fun and relaxing. I did not do the report for the money, nor to get ovations and accolades from my peers. My intention was to help a begginer get started.
If you and others could do the same, and cover other areas not covered before in the Workbench and Showcase, TMP will be richer, and all points of view will be represented.
I know I will keep contributing.

As a designer of 20 years, and a modeller of over 30, I am self-critical. If someone questions my painting, I go check it. I worked for GW for a while, saw some truly awful painting, and encouraged those to paint better in a very positive manner. But more importantly, I encouraged them to understand what and why they were painting. You can't shade properly unless you understand light and its effects.

"Gee, the green you used seems wrong to me. A better choice would have been to choose a colour…. that is closer to the green that shows up in photos such the following:"
picture
picture
picture (this one seems to be the darkest, due to the lighting, but still not as blue)
picture
picture

Difficult for me recommend an actual colour, as I generally mix to eye.

If you were a beginner I might agree with you. But you're not. You've been around a while and have taught countless customers how to paint better. So picking a colour should be almost second nature and, at the very least, historically representative if you are encouraging people (beginners or otherwise) to paint better.

We experienced painters and modellers (and I'm including you there) have a moral responsibility to encourage beginners to paint not only better, but more accurately. I believe that articles on items with titles like 'workbench' and 'showcase' should do the same.

But you didn't actually paint these anyway so I'm not quite sure what your comments are about. I'm in touch with Vladimir and will ask him instead.

The SSh-68 (the fourth picture link) is a bit out of period, but gives a good example of unoxidized paint. It would probably weather to something like this:

picture

This is another example of a very dark shade:

picture

Note how the (fairly bright) light reflection, or highlight if one were to paint it, shows quite ochre-ish.

Allen

Bill, what instructions were Old Guard given?

None; I was satisfied they were familiar with the subject.

Did you send them Beowulf's workbench article as reference?

No.

If it's a showcase item, it really should be much better.

At the risk of repeating myself, the TMP Showcase has never been defined as a place to showcase only museum-quality work.

At the risk of repeating myself:
"This is a showcase article of figures painted by a professional painting service. The Showcase is "…where the Editor takes a peek at various products – including some of the latest releases – sent to us here at The Miniatures Page." I'd actually say that I feel the Showcase should be used to show some of the best, to inspire and encourage people to paint."

I'd actually say that I feel the Showcase should be used to show some of the best, to inspire and encourage people to paint.

I'd rather show lots of things, and let the TMP community decide what's the best.

*This* is best!!!!

link

Oh, wait: that's not best. I forget. It's something about crushing and the lamentation of the women…

Allen

I will add my 2 cents to this debate. Allan really seems to have gone overboard in some of his criticisms. The correct historical colour IS NOT always the best choice for small scale figures (6mm, 15mm, 20mm). I experimented with different colours on my 15mm Russian helmets before painting them. Most of the photos I found were black and white and the colour ones showed a lot of variation, but no bright green. When I found a colour that matched the brownish green colour photos of the helmets it looked fine under a magnifying glass but from 2 or 3' away it looked like the helmets had just been left khaki like the rest of the uniform. It is the scale effect. In the end I used Vallejo 894 with a brown wash over it and some dry-brushed highlights for the helmets in order to get some contrast. I suspect this is why FoW recommends 894 for their Soviet troops' helmets. I would probably use a slightly darker version of the actual "historical" colour Allen is suggesting if I were doing 28mm or larger figures. What colour is being suggested for mortars or HMG? From the pictures I have seen (most B&W) it is hard to tell as they are usually dirty and much of the paint has worn off due to heat or friction. I have seen colours ranging from brown-green to a fairly bright olive green. I used 894 again with a brown wash except on areas where it should be metal or where paint would likely have been rubbed off due to friction and heat, on those spots I used gunmetal.

One poster suggested it was an offence to veterans to get the colour wrong or words to that effect. Hogwash. I recall one veteran (who was also a wargamer) commenting that he found it amusing all the fussing over colours. Basically they painted their tanks with whatever paint they could lay there hands on, there was a lot of variation in the "issue paint" and in any event everything was soon covered in a layers of dust and mud. So for those like Allan who want to be ultra realistic just paint everything a dusty mud colour!

Brian

Who's Allan?

Allen