"New Ancients Player: DBM, FOG or WAB2?" Topic

Hi,

I'm looking into starting Ancients. I have not yet decided on rule set. I have tried DBA and found it to be fun but it apparently isn't supported anymore.

So which rule set is the best out of DBM, Warhammer Ancients or Fields of Glory?

Preference is for a game that favours tactical movement and not a bucket o'dice kill and slash system ala modern WFB.

Also who are the most reliable manufacturers/sellers of 15mm ancients miniatures? Looking at Carthaginians versus Rome circa Hannibal.

'Best' is of course a matter of opinion. All have their fans.

DBA and Big Battle DBA have good followings. I'm not sure what you mean by 'not supported anymore'. The rules are still available and there is a strong online community at fanaticus (fanaticus.org?). That's all the support it's ever had.

My only advice is try to find local players and try each system and group of players until you find one you like.

DBA does have a good following, but I would recommend the same as Whatisitgood4atwork find out what people in your local area are playing.

As far as miniature suppliers, there are many. I would recommend a good starting point is to look at a site like fanaticus and you can get an idea of all the different manufacturers. 2 popular companies are old glory and essex. Each has its strengths and weaknesses

Have you looked at Impetus or it's free counterpart Basic Impetus?

Another vote for Big Battle DBA, especially if you're new to the period. I agree with the first 2 replies that it would be wise to check out what others in your area are playing.

So which rule set is the best out of DBM, Warhammer Ancients or Fields of Glory?

DBM has its following but it does not exist in my neck of the woods.

Warhammer Ancients really is a 28mm game and has many similarities to Warhammer Fantasy (sans magic).

Field of Glory is played by a lot of the 15mm crowd. Rules are . . . OK other than the combat which is pretty 'involved' and can take quite a bit of time to pound through if you have several units involved in a common combat.

I have never found a set of ancients rules that I like. If you look at ancients rules from two steps back you will see they are all very similar. Differences are important to some folks but in my book, its six of one and a half dozen of another.

If you like DBA no need to look farther. DBA is as good as any other ancients rules set out there.

FoG is the way to go.

[QUOTE]I have tried DBA and found it to be fun but it apparently isn't supported anymore.[/QUOTE]
Interesting as Sue Laflin-Barker is on both Fanaticus and the Yahoo DBA forum soliciting comments for the Army Lists for the next version of DBA (DBA 3.0). How's that for support?

I've started all the new people on DBA here. Accessible, small armies to start, growth path (BBDBA, Giant DBA, and those [I]other[/I] rules that copy its basing scheme).

Corvus Belli is a good manufacturer for Punic Wars in 15mm, but I like Xyston myself. They just don't have the Roman and Carthaginian cavalry yet.

Dale

Impetus. Look at Basic Impetus.

another vote for Impetus

Impetus (and the free download to see if you like it, Basic Impetus)

Yet another vote for Impetus.

You can download Basic Impetus (the "lite" but very playable version of full Impetus) for free from the following link, give it a few tries and see if you like it enough to purchase the full version.

dadiepiombo.com/basic2.html

In fact, I know of quite a number of people who decided that Basic Impetus is good enough for casual play, and that they didn't need the extra rules introduced in Impetus.

I know other have said it before but your first consideration is to find out what is being played locally. You need opponents first.

Once you have people you pkay against you can look at other rules if you don't care for what they are playing- at least with anciets you have a common(ish) basing system and can happily hop form one to the other.

If all other considerations are met and you like DBA then why look elsewhere?

if you don't have opponents then go for a matched DBA pair of armies (cheap) or two 6mm Basic Imepetus armies.

check the thred from @ last week about starting DBA – easy in, hard to stop growing more armies and leggies with it though – addictive like crack

plus, DBA scales up to everything listed and more

This may interest you – bit.ly/bxYbzv – as it looks at DBMM and FOG.

--
Martin Stephenson
blog.vexillia.me.uk
amazon.co.uk/shops/vexillia

Another vote for Big Battle DBA however,Impetus starts to raise my curiosity (and it's free in its basic set)

AFAIK there is apparently due to be a new version of DBA in the not too distant future. Phil Barker has apparently been mentioning it in a few places.

As for what is the best to start with that entirely depends on what you will get a chance to play. I would not suggest to anyone in my area that they start playing DBM simply because they are going to struggle to get opponents.

If you are in an isolated community and are starting Ancients from scratch I would suggest you consider the various current rules as you will get a lot more support from their online communities. That would point you in the direction of FoG, Impetus, DBMM or WAB2.

Which is best is totally subjective. What do you want from the game? Personally I want the chance to play games when I want and to be able to play some tournaments throughout the year. Where I live I can easily find opponents for FoG, DBMM is possible and with a bit of effort I can find WAB opponents. Because most of my armies are 15mm that rules out WAB as most WAB players use 28mm, combine that with WAB not being to my taste and that leaves FoG and MM. Of the two I vastly prefer FoG so that is what I play. Does it make FoG the best rules? You tell me.

For me BBDBA and DBMM2. Impetus looks interesting. It depends on what you like but DBA is a pain free start that gives a range of options.

FoG, DBM (or DBMM) are both element based (lots of figures on one base) and to the same sized bases as DBA. An alternative game in the same style is Warmaster Ancients. Thats what I am playing at the moment as I feel the rules are simple, yet reward good play. I tried Impetus and am strongly against it (do you feel lucky style of rules).

WAB2 totally different game with individually based figures. My ancients game of preference – but totally different to what you have been playing. However anyone with experience of any of the Warhammer games should be able to pick it up quickly.

Another vote from me for DBA as an intro to ancient gaming. One of the major plus points is that if you later decide to go on to DBM or DBMM or FOG you can use the same figures and elements as you have collected for DBA because they have identical base sizes and notes which show how any new troop types relate to those in earlier versions. Can't speak about other rules and the above are the only sets I have played. As for figures, most of the makers of Ancient ranges cover the Carthaginians and their enemies so, as usual, it is a matter of which range takes your fancy or suits your pocket. Apart from the ranges already mentioned, others worth looking at are Donnington, Museum mininatures, Warmodelling (used to be called Fantassin), Minifigs and Magister Miletum (used to be called Chariot Miniatures). Pass o the North did some nice Carthos but not sure if they are in production. Mirliton's range of Etruscan and Early Roman are another source of figures some of which could fit into a Cartho army. The DBA Fanaticus site has an 'Eye Candy' page with pics of lots of figures from different makers. It also has a link to David Kujit's site which also shows figures from various makers. Also, try the Madaxeman site for info on figures. The author did a lot of DBM games and now focuses on FoG but he has shed loads of info on figure sources.

Maybe Thomas is referring to _on-line_ DBA, which isn't supported now?

Still, the best thing to do is to find out what other people are playing in the area. Otherwise, as others say, you can't really go past DBA, though Impetus would give it a run.

JohnG

Go for whatever people nearby like to play.
Not much sense picking a set of rules and then finding no-one wants to play it with you.
WAB can be played easily with element based figures; it's harder to play DBx or FoG with individually based figures.
So unless you intend only playing WAB, base as elements.

As far as the rules go:

DBMM is element based, so there it lots of scope for tactics, and it has some very nice ideas like stratagems.
It gives an exciting game with many decision points.
But it is a complex set of rules which needs regular play to keep it in mind.

Field of Glory is unit based (with figures still based as elements). Still quite complex to pick up (and the rules could be much better cross-referenced), but plays well. I'd say it has less decision points than DBMM, but the decisions you have to make are interesting; mostly when to commit commanders to combat and/or trying to rally shaky units.

Warhammer Ancients feels like a much lower level game than the other two because of the very large missile ranges; it gives the feel of a big skirmish rather than a battle. The mechanics are quite simple, but there is scope for tactical decision making (there are also some loopholes in WAB1 which can be exploited by nasty opponents; not sure if those are all plugged in WAB2). I like it for Dark Age battles because of the scope for individual heroism; I find it much less good for Classical warfare.

FOG is my preferred game. It is quite complex and it's probably best if someone can teach you it. It's also a game that you need to play regularly to get the most out of.
It has plenty of scope for tactical movement and interesting and challenging decisions. And you really feel like the decisons you make affect the outcome of the game.

Fog is my system of choice for ancients, I am just finishing off a later carthaginian army for hannibal to bring to northern italy. All figs are old glory from Timecast. Lovely figs, and good value.

link

Phil

I agree with the guys above,
look around and see what others are playing first.

Me, well I'm a WAB fan, but before buying into it, get hold of a second hand copy of Hannibal (for WAB) and have a read.
If that doesn't get you fired up for playing WAB, then don't buy the rules!

Providing your buying both armies, it doesn't matter what scale you choose.

Hi ThomasHobbes,

As you can see, there is a wide range of opinions on which rule set is the "best" for Ancients. Here are some links providing online comments and reviews for the ones that you mentioned in your OP:

De Bellis Multitudinis (DBM)
link
TMP link

De Bellis Magistrorum Militum (DBMM) – the 'successor' to DBM
link
box.net/shared/n18bvwh4o4
link

Field of Glory (FoG)
link
link
PDF link

Warhammer Ancient Battles (WAB)
link
link
link

There are many other Ancients rule sets, as well. As others have suggested, ultimately the "best" is the one that most closely matches your own wargaming tastes and playing style. The same could also be said for miniatures. Good luck in your search!

Cheers,
Scott

I would recommend staying the hell away from WAB2

1) It's not very well supported
2) It's sold direct only
3) The rulebook is FULL of errors due to lack of proofreading
4) If you base your figures for this game and it dies, they can't be used for other ancient games.
5) They only half did the point cost for the armies, so you can play a few armies, or use the old books where the point cost don't match the rules. Total crap.

I used to be a HUGE Wab fan, but WAB2 totally killed the game for me. Now I am stuck with Figures that are based only for this game and need to rebase to use them for another system.

With Forge World running it, look for WAB to die a slow death.

I would recommend Impetus or Fields of Glory both games are good. I think you can get the basic impetus free. Any they have current army books for the systems.

Also the post about the WAB Hannibal book is right on. That's one of my Favorite supplements for any wargame. Very well done. It sucks Forge World had to screw up a good game.

You want to play whatever the people in your local area are either playing, or would be prepared to play if you turned up with it, or could play using their already based armies.

All the rulesets mention so far do a decent job of giving you an Ancients game, with variance around that 'decent' based on the preferences of the players in question.

Just based on your stated preferences, I'd not recommend WAB – it's more like WFB than any other game, though of course it's not the same as WFB in the details.

DBA is a great game. It's inexpensive, elegant, easy and fast to play, and gives you a feel for ancient warfare at a high level. You can use DBA mounted figures for many different games, and 15mm seems to be the dominant scale used by DBA players. (Though for the record, 28mm "double sized" DBA is pretty visually nice!) (Don't let the people scare you off DBA's writing style. The game itself is very easy. Grab the online DBA guide that's out there; it will demonstrate the basics.)

Warmaster Ancients and Impetus are worth looking at. Basic Impetus can be played with DBA-sized armies easily, and it's free as well. I have yet to play BI, but the rules read nicely and aside from a little book-keeping, seem every bit as straight-forward as DBA.

DBM(M) and FoG games are IMHO not good for players just starting out. You need lots of figures and the rules are not easy to "get in to".

Though if you're into more detailed games, FoG seems to be top-dog around these parts.

As others have said, unless you are willing to go to the effort of converting the local players to a new rules set, you might as well go for what is popular in the area first. That said, I strongly recommend you give a look to Might of Arms.

Doug

You are not into "Buckets o dice?" WAB is right out. FoG requires a fair amount of dice rolling as well.

DBx games, as you know, require few dice rolls. DBMM is pretty complicated in terms of outcomes though not so much otherwise. A bit more so than DBM so I am told. With the exception of DBA and HoTT I would not recommend DBx games.

Impetus also has a fair amount of dice rolling but only a single die for a "save". It might be a good happy medium for you. reasonable amount of tactical choice in the game. You can Google "basic impetus" and find the rules for free.

Warmaster uses fewer dice than WAB so it might be a viable choice for you as well.

What level of complexity and detail are you looking for?

John

If you do not want to play DBA because it "is not supported" then clear your mind. It is supported as much, or more, than other Ancients rules. There are DBA events around the world. Many in Australia.
Check out the Yahoo group discussion on events in 2011
link
and other issues.
I think non-members can read messages.

There is also the huge DBA Fan Site
link

The authors are in the process of getting ideas for a possible 3 edition in a couple of years.

If you do not like the game for other reasons, fine, but do not think it is "not supported."

DBM is not supported in that the Authors have come out with new rules.

DBA takes a bit of reading to understand, but there is a guide book. Once you have played a couple times, you do not need to refer to the book. 8 pages of rules.

Guide
wadbag.com/DBAGuide

FoG, WAB, and DBM are all good games. DBA is good too, but somewhat limited.

I play and enjoy FoG because there are a LOT of FoG players in my area.

I am always curious about all the plugs for Impetus one always sees on TMP. I have never seen a copy, never seen it played, never saw an Impetus event listed at a con, never had a FTF conversation with anyone who said they had played it. Perhaps I lead a sheltered, monastic existence, but I saw nothing on Impetus the last 3 trips to Historicon.

Who is playing that game?

Nikator, you lead a sheltered life. I ran a large 28mm game of Impetus at the last Fall-In a few weeks back. It is true that Impetus is only just beginning to really break into the English gaming world. But it is the best rules system I've ever played. And I've played DBA, Ancient Warfare, MOA, DBM, Armati, and host of other ancient rules systems. It is the first game that I've played where I both enjoy the game and get good results. Highly recommended.

And I should add that OMM sold all of its copies of Impetus rules. I was also surprised by the number of players in the game who were familiar with the rules.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions, Brutus, I have long suspected that to be the case.

I guess I'll have to download Basic Impetus at some point and see what the fuss is about.

DBA is a fun game. And it is among the best supported games in this hobby.

Impetus is better, IMHO, but needs slightly more figures and space.

Go with WAB. It's easy to play, it's fun to play, you can use it (through it's supplements) for a variety of periods. No matter where you go, if you run into folks who play Warhammer or 40K, they can be corrupted to historicals through WAB.

And don't believe anyone claiming that you HAVE to use single-based minis to play WAB. That's just plain silly and certainly not true. WAB minis can be mounted singly, or on multi-figure bases as you choose. It all works.

But the best advice is to do a number of online searches for the different rules sets and see what other folks think. Compare that to what YOU want to do, and also see what other gamers in your area are playing.

V/R

Thanks for the info guys. It's all good food for thought.

I am liaising with other players in my area to determine what'd be the best option.

Good to hear DBA/DBM is stll an active game system.

I think it depends on:

Whet period you want to play
What type of game you want
What scale you want to play
What the people in your area play

I play FoG for ancients now. Good game but a bit mechanical at times. I hope v2 will improve it.

I like WAB a lot but there are some large gaps in army coverage and uncertainty over whether they will be plugged. It was thought that the release of WAB2 (which as has been pointed out is full of errors and omissions) would open the flood-gates to backed-up supplements. 7 months on and no sign yet. I have several WAB armies and like to play it but I'm not sure I'd buy into it if I was starting. That said, Hannibal is a BRILLIANT supplement (best of the lot IMO) and WAB gives as good an account of itself as any for the period. There are those that are still very enthused about and I hope it's not a case of blind optimism. I've been waiting for the Crusades supplement that was "coming soon" when WAB was published 10 years ago!!!! It is also dice heavy though but I don't actually mind that.

DBA does nothing for me personally. Doesn't feel or look like a battle but that's just my take. DBMM and DBM are too abstract for my tastes also but others love it. I tried Warmaster and found it somewhat bland. Many like its approach to command and control but for me it seems to model little else. I bored of it very quickly.

It all depends on what and how you like to play IMO.

If I was starting now I'd still go for FoG, Impetus IF you can get a game (assuming you want to play against others v solo) and I'd also look at Crusader rules (with the same caveat re Impetus). Other sets are good to (Might of Arms etc) BUT, it's finding people who play them!!!

And don't believe anyone claiming that you HAVE to use single-based minis to play WAB. That's just plain silly and certainly not true.

Whilst you could use element based figures to play WAB – and I have done so – it is not as flexible as the single base method (although you can treat each element as a large base). Want to change your formation, 3,4,5,6 figures wide, single figure basing makes it easy.

sector51 wrote:
Whilst you could use element based figures to play WAB – and I have done so – it is not as flexible as the single base method (although you can treat each element as a large base). Want to change your formation, 3,4,5,6 figures wide, single figure basing makes it easy.
--------------------
Absolutely true – but if you plan on using the figures for any other system, they are all element based. Single basing pretty much restricts you to WAB, as sabot bases never work very well.

I've used a modified multi-based figure system plus single figures for WAB, and been able to use the same figures for DBA. I've been looking into using the same figures for the Crusader rules as well.

That said, as much as I enjoyed WAB in the past, I can't really recommend it, and think it seems to be drying up anyway. I think TGaffney hit most of the hot points.

There are supposedly a few other/new ancients games on the horizon as well.

I'd definitely go along with what your prospective opponents play, assuming of course that you feel the games are fun and the results are realistic as far as you can see. Trying to popularise another set can be an unrewarding and ultimately futile task if your friends don't want to change.

DBA is well supported on the Fanaticus site and you might want to consider Big Battle DBA. The DBA campaign games are lots of fun.

I'd avoid FoG. They aren't a bad set but there are just so many pages and they aren't brilliantly organised or indexed. With respect, they may well just confuse a beginner. I'd go along with Empgamer's comments that they can be a bit mechanical and IMO they seem to take a long time getting to a point that other rule sets get to quicker and with less arithmetic. Personally I find them just a bit dull and too much like hard work sometimes. Maybe give them a go with somebody who has already had a few games with them.

DBM are actually quite a fun set if played in the right spirit, ironically the issues that seemed to bedevil them (too long winded a topic to bore you with) seem to have been addressed just as they dropped out of fashion…typical!!

Basic Impetus are free and fairly easy to play. I bought the full Impetus rules and a supplement after playing them or rather my wife did as a Christmas present for me so I can't rate them until the new year, I don't get to open them until Christmas Day!

If I had to pick one I'd say DBA. As for figures Essex Miniatures or Corvus Belli would be the way I would go.

If you're just getting started, then DBA is the way to go. You can play hundreds of armies from it's lists, it includes a campaign game and due to huge amount of playing and players, very well supported. Any question you may have will be old news at Fanaticus.

Runner up would be Basic Impetus, bc it's free – hard to go wrong with that.

FoG reminds me of calculus, not a game. Games are fun. I couldn't even get thru the rules.

WAB1 is fun but if you do t like WFB7 you won't like it. Plus it's many supplements confuse the rules and now WAB2 is fracturing the community.

Cheap, small 15mm armies under 50 figs, world wide playing, lots of players and support – DBA is best. I have converted people to playing miniatures with it.

I'll also add that most armies in the list play well in these rules and do e are endless classic fun like Romans v Celts. some don't play quite as well but you can always tweak them a little.

DBA is indeed a great game but if someone turned up at my club looking to play DBA they would really struggle to get a game. I think that in the last four or five years I have seen two gaemes of DBA.

In many ways these rules are different, as Richard Bodley Scott explained it to my many years ago DBA is a quick game you can play in under and hour.

DBM used the same mechanism as DBA but as a conventional 3 hour game. The biggest problem with the game is the language that it is written in is only margianally related to English. This is because like many ancient sets over the years it was spoiled for the rest of us by the rules lawyers who love the tournament style of Ancients. I gave up never having played a game.

FoG – it's better written, the macahisms take some getting use to but it works nicely. The rules lawyers have already stated to ruin this set online.

WAB2 – sorry not my style.

Another thing you want to take into consideration is -completeness- that is can you play all important aspects of the period and generalship using the rules. Far as I know, only DBA presents everything from field battles to fortification assaults and camps, battlefield construction and terrain for every army, invasion attacker and invaded defender, campaigns and allies in one (inexpensive) rulebook covering 5000 years.

That's a lot of game to get started with.

Yep, if the Crusades are your bag forget WAB!!!