Joe Legan | 30 Dec 2016 7:50 a.m. PST |
Really enjoying SAGA right now as a break from Grunt's Forward. Picked up Raven's shadow. I notice there are no rules for the Frank's famous throwing axes. They do have rules for one group of warriors to become "Saxons" and double their attack die when attacking. ( but their armor is reduced to 3) Is this suppose to model the francisca? I would have thought allowing a shooting attack just before close combat would be better. Thanks Joe |
Dale Hurtt | 30 Dec 2016 10:40 a.m. PST |
It is not modeled as shooting; it is modeled as a part of melee. |
Joe Legan | 30 Dec 2016 1:12 p.m. PST |
So is the "saxon rule" SAGA modeling the effect of the axes? Thanks Joe |
COL Scott ret | 30 Dec 2016 1:33 p.m. PST |
I do not know that rules system at all, however I have thrown axes. I would say that throwing axes would be much more a close combat kind of thing, the range is severely limited- and the effect would depend on the range, skill of thrower, armor of target unit, formation of target unit, discipline/fierceness of target unit, and if there was any surprise in them being thrown. With all those variable if I were writing non-skirmish rules about that effect I would integrate it into their overall close combat results. |
Skeptic | 30 Dec 2016 7:48 p.m. PST |
The Franks used to throw francisca a few centuries before the intended timeframe for SAGA… |
Joe Legan | 31 Dec 2016 8:19 a.m. PST |
Thank you all for the input. So am guessing that the francisca IS modeled by the saxon rule. Col Scott, have never thrown an axe so will take your word for it! Skeptic, I don't pretend to know much of the period but Sir Oman puts the Franks use of the Francisca up through at least 768. ( he implies the use up to the early 800s but doesn't specifically state.) The SAGA book starts the Franks in the "early 6th century" if I am reading it correctly. Thanks again Col Legan (ret) |
Dale Hurtt | 31 Dec 2016 3:46 p.m. PST |
In my opinion, yes, the Saxon warriors getting additional dice in melee when attacking is modeling the throwing of axes as they are charging in, and this do not have a separate shooting phase. |
nochules | 01 Jan 2017 9:11 a.m. PST |
Apparently the rules will be in the Arthurian era supplement that is coming out in the near future. |
Joe Legan | 01 Jan 2017 6:00 p.m. PST |
Nochules, Per ordered the supplement; will be interesting to see how they handle it. Dale, Think an additional dice for attack (while pretty strong) is a fair way to handle it. Guess they dropped their armor class just for game balance. Don't know why they wouldn't be able to use their shields. Thank you for your opinion. Joe |
Skeptic | 01 Jan 2017 8:16 p.m. PST |
I haven't yet found any solid answer about whether or when the Franks might have generally stopped using throwing axes, but their use seemed to be more commonly associated with a slightly earlier period than the one that SAGA originally focused on. Oman died in 1946, and there have been decades of archaeology and interpretation since then, so he likely did not have the last word on early medieval warfare. |
Skeptic | 01 Jan 2017 8:30 p.m. PST |
Aha! I'm not sure if this link will work for you, but Halsall suggests in Warfare and Society in the Barbarian West, 450-900 that the francisca fell from use in the 7th century: link |
Joe Legan | 02 Jan 2017 7:44 a.m. PST |
Skeptic, Thanks for the info. As stated, don't know much about the era. Didn't realize Oman has fallen out of favor. Even if it fell out of use in the 7th century that still gives the early Franks 100 years to use it in SAGA! ( Certainly no worse than Irish wolf hounds!) Thanks for the info. Joe |